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40 vs 9: Let's move on.

17K views 480 replies 65 participants last post by  fredj338 
#1 ·
A lot of bandwidth banter has been expended on the .40 in recent days; a lot has been expended. There are some who can accurately shoot and handle the .40 S&W and some that can't. I'm one of those that can.

If you fall in the category of those that don't have what it takes to use the .40 caliber, that's okay. You are still loved and respected. You are still valuable and you are no less of a man, woman or whatever your gender identification is on a given day.

The FBI made its choice for an adequate round and the 9mm won out. It's all good. 9mm lovers love your 9's. .40 officianados enjoy your .40's and let's move on down the road shall we?
 
#123 ·
No biggie.

One of the best things to come out of the article is that it discusses some of the topics within the length of an article, versus book length, and it doesn't leave the reader with some impression that they can hope to better achieve a "one shot stop" capability for handguns by choosing some specific caliber, or loading.

Pick good quality equipment and use good quality ammunition ... then train & practice, as frequently as may be needed in order to hopefully acquire the level of ability desired. Then train & practice some more.

Understand any inherent advantages/disadvantages of your particular choice of equipment, or options, and adjust your training and practice to try and address them.

Practice some more.

It's just a handgun.
 
#129 ·
Our agency conducted testing and communicated with several large agencies doing extensive testing. Our agency went to the 9, concluding:
1) 1/10 twist of new 9mm barrels showed improvement in barrier penetration of 9mm ammo.
2) With enhanced penetration ref (1) and improved performance of new 9mm ammo the difference in test media showed negligible difference between the 9mm and 40S&W.
3)Qualification scores increased among all skill levels of officers during testing.
4)Qualification times were reduced significantly among all skill levels of officers during testing.
5)Increase of ammo capacity of the 9mm pistol over the 40.
Also noted:
No significant difference in the cost of duty ammo was found between the 9 and 40.
Practice ammo for 9 was more economical then 40; however the difference was not considered cost prohibitive.

I couldn't believe how much a difference the twist rate made in the performance of the ammo between 1/10 and 1/16 reference to 9mm. I'll be the first to admit that this is outside my realm of expertise, but made me wonder if the 40 cal barrels had an increased twist rate would it perform even better?
 
#131 · (Edited)
147gr Gold Dot
147gr HST
147gr Winchester Ranger
The 40 cal was same brands with 180gr
I couldn't tell you on the chronograph. It was graphed but don't have the results. I can go back and see about getting them. I know the ballistic medium was calibrated but thats about all I know. The test met the FBI standards. I wasn't really that interested in that aspect, just impressed with the results
 
#132 ·
Is that Ranger-T or Ranger Bonded? Gel calibration, at what is sometimes deemed "acceptable" can result in variation of penetration of up to 2". Velocity matters a bit more when barriers are involved than with just bare gel tests. Very wisely, your agency did not rely on manufacturers' own tests, as the conditions under which manufacturer testing is done is often uncertain.
 
#133 ·
It was Bonded.
Funny you say that reference the manufactures. We did have offers for them to do the test at our location at no cost to us. We declined, but offered for them to observe, which we did have two take us up on the offer. One was pushing HST/Gold Dot and the other Ranger.
 
#142 ·
Yes. . . let's move on. Faster and more accurate with the .40.

If you want to believe that, be my guess, but i could do the same video & show a 44mag would be faster. If one has an agenda, they can prove anything. The diff will be small for an experienced shooter, but the 9mm will always be shot with freater accuracy at soeed. Its just physics.
 
#155 ·
I don't think this guy has an agenda.

But if you choose to believe it was a conspiracy, instead of a video that shows there's really not that much difference in recoil/speed with .40 vs. 9. . . it's a free country.

At least until Hillary gets elected. Then you won't have to worry about caliber at all, as you won't be able to legally own a gun anyway. But that's a different thread.
 
#143 ·
What does this article actually show, other than suggest that most people will give up whether they are shot with a .22lr or a .357 mag?
I'd not look at it has offering anything approaching "suggestions", but more along the lines of educated conclusions based upon observations influenced by experiential knowledge.

It didn't seem to approach offering a "suggestion" of how/why to choose a caliber, but cautioning that selection of caliber may be less predictive of an anticipated outcome than is sometimes conjectured by caliber proponents.

Naturally, selection "standards" of duty/service calibers aren't going to be lowered to the point where .22, .25, .32, .380 calibers are going to be considered in any way optimal. However, reviews and informal studies of this nature may serve to remind some people that such "lesser" calibers may not be as "ineffective", for personal defense roles, in some situations as might be assumed by some people.

In earlier times the .32, .380 and even the .22 Magnum were respected as secondary weapon calibers, for supplementing duty/service caliber weapons, and even as "primary" calibers for situations where deep UC may require a very low profile level of being armed.

The conclusions and observations weren't outlandish or unreasonable, especially when you consider they were formulated by someone having some experience in the public safety profession where gunshot wounds weren't an uncommon experience.
 
#151 ·
The size of the sample is statistically woefully insufficient to establish any meaningful general conclusion about caliber effectiveness. Also, key information, such as what parts of the body the bullets impacted, is missing. Since, valid and professional research has showed that some 98% of people will stop their aggression if they are shot anywhere with anything from .22 on up (psychological stops), to get meaningful "percentage stops" as a function of caliber requires a huge database (tens of thousands of shootings) and all relevant information about the shootings -- which is missing in the referenced "study."
 
#144 ·
No top competitor uses a .40 S&W to win major shooting competitions. The best shooters, the fastest shooters, the most accurate shooters, choose 9mm. One guy on one video proves nothing. Hundreds of results from dozens of top shooters over the past decade proves all you need to know about the .40 S&W and its recoil impulse. Nobody who wants to win to earn a living picks it.
Let's not forget the success and interest still shown toward the venerable .38 Super for gaming roles. A 1911 chambered in .38 Super is a very nice handling, low recoil choice.

If it wasn't for the dimension of the grip frame required for the .38 Super (meaning being the same as for the .45, which some people still find too large for front/back dimension of the grip frame), and the limited selection of more modern JHP's for the lingering caliber, the .38 Super might yet command some further attention.
 
#149 ·
Let's not forget the success and interest still shown toward the venerable .38 Super for gaming roles. A 1911 chambered in .38 Super is a very nice handling, low recoil choice.

If it wasn't for the dimension of the grip frame required for the .38 Super (meaning being the same as for the .45, which some people still find too large for front/back dimension of the grip frame), and the limited selection of more modern JHP's for the lingering caliber, the .38 Super might yet command some further attention.
There are a few decent choices for self-defense in .38 Super. It's always been a good round, and has been around for a long time. If I recall, it's been here since the 1930s or so. It would be a great choice for self-defense, if you can find the platform you like.

I will say this and some here can relate. You can talk splits and splats and times and rhymes but you really don't know how you're going to react until the manure hits the fan. The feeling of having a loaded gun pointed at your face within point blank range is something I cannot explain. I can tell you everything goes into slow motion and your instincts kick in.

In my case I don't even notice things like recoil or sound nor do I worry about the risks involved in doing whatever is necessary to stay alive. I zero in on what is in front of me. 30 minutes after things calm down is another story when the shock sets in.

My hope is I never have to to deal with something like that again but if I do, God forbid, I won't be worrying about whether I have a 9 or a 40 or a 45 just that I have something. Be thankful we can have these nice debates and worry over it versus worrying over whether you come home or not. Be very thankful.
Good perspective for someone who's been through it. Thanks.

I've been shooting the .40 S&W since 1992. Conventional Sigs handle the round superbly. My Gen. 4 Glock 22 handles the recoil magnificently also. A mouse gun will make you think you've grabbed a wasp nest. My EDC is a Gen. 3 Glock 23 and it is controllable but bucks more than a 9 milli.
Like you, I've been on the .40 S&W bandwagon since 1992. I like the round. I carried one every day for a long time. I still carry one, if I know I'm going in harm's way. However, I hold no illusions about its performance, since it's a handgun round and none of them is guaranteed to produce one-shot stops. You will keep shooting until the threat is stopped, and more ammunition is always better, especially what's on-board your pistol when you start the conflict.
 
#147 · (Edited by Moderator)
I will say this and some here can relate. You can talk splits and splats and times and rhymes but you really don't know how you're going to react until the manure hits the fan. The feeling of having a loaded gun pointed at your face within point blank range is something I cannot explain. I can tell you everything goes into slow motion and your instincts kick in.

In my case I don't even notice things like recoil or sound nor do I worry about the risks involved in doing whatever is necessary to stay alive. I zero in on what is in front of me. 30 minutes after things calm down is another story when the shock sets in.

My hope is I never have to to deal with something like that again but if I do, God forbid, I won't be worrying about whether I have a 9 or a 40 or a 45 just that I have something. Be thankful we can have these nice debates and worry over it versus worrying over whether you come home or not. Be very thankful.
 
#154 · (Edited)
One of the baseless, silly notions used to argue that 9mm is terminally equivalent to .40 is that 9mm ammunition is "dramatically" improved since 2007. That's patent nonsense (as if there were no similar improvements in ammo in .40). Here is a result, from an extensive study by CPRC (Canadian Police Research Centre), published in 1994 -- with Winchester Black Talon SXT, 9mm, 147 gr. JHP.
4" pistol, 5 shot average

Bare gel penetration: 13.7" @ 0.626" max. expansion,calibration: 8.4 cm (spot on)

Penetration with heavy clothing: 14.15" @ 0.657" max. expansion, calibration: 10.0 cm

Obviously this performance obtained more than 22 years ago is as good or better than terminal performance with a HST, Speer Gold Dot/G2, or Winchester Ranger -- available since 2007.
9mm has been, is, and will be terminally inferior to .40 cal, despite the fiction peddled by the clueless -- as basic physics REQUIRES.
LOL.
 
#166 ·
I agree. Our duty load is a 9mm that is +P+. We went to it long ago partly to make it easier for officers to qualify. Of course our qual load is not a ballistic equivalent but I fail to see what we gained really when the duty load recoils about the same as a 40 would.
 
#163 ·
No offense to anyone other than the one person in this thread that often posts misinformation but I don't need to see an article to verify what I already see in real life. As long as the round is powerful enough to penetrate deep enough and a well placed shot has occurred you will see no real difference in what a 9mm, 40, or 45 does vs. humans. I've seen all fail with people struck multiple times because of terrible shot placement. I feel few would argue that 9mm is the acceptable floor power wise for most. The place where most are comfortable still in the ability of the round to penetrate deep enough with a well designed hp.

For those that find that floor to be 40 or 45 or 10mm or 357Sig or anything more powerful I doubt any would tell them they are carrying too much gun as long as they are accurate still.
 
#164 · (Edited)
Your ignorance and arrogance has no limits, obviously. When I quoted an article from policeone.com, I also gave the name of the author, Richard Fairburn.
Here is his background: Richard Fairburn has more than 30 years of law enforcement experience in both Illinois and Wyoming, working patrol investigations and administrative assignments. He has also served as a Criminal Intelligence Analyst and as the Section Chief of a major academy's Forensic Training unit and Critical Incident training program. He has a B.S. in Law Enforcement Administration from Western Illinois University and was the Valedictorian of his recruit class at the Illinois State Police Academy. He has published more than 100 feature articles and two books: Police Rifles and Building a Better Gunfighter.
But, too bad he doesn't have access to your "knowledge and experience" -- which is certainly contrary to his. But obviously, compared to you and your demonstrated "knowledge and experience," what does anybody really know. Nothing, nothing at all, obviously. LOL
Incidentally, I'm still waiting for you to show me how to apply mathematics properly. ROAR!
Sounds like a lot of admin and supervisory experience. Sounds like you depend on the experience of others as you have none. I am a tool maker with 15 years experience. Have taught everything that is a part of our tool and die program locally. Programmer back even before cad cam became common place. As in sat at a desk with a sheet of paper, some blueprints, a calculator and the coded line by line. Was part of the first implementation that integrated solid modeling with a cnc in this country. I have been an officer for 8 and a half years now. Over 1300 arrests to date. I do most of my own felony investigations. Investigated (as in seen the results) of more shootings than I would wish on anyone. I've been luck in never having to have pulled the trigger on a human myself so far. I instruct other officers in my free time in handgun. I'm a certified armorer and in the past have worked as a gunsmith. I ride a patrol car. Not a desk.

YOUR EXPERIENCE?

I don't justify your application of math in our previous discussion because it is so silly it makes me laugh. In having nothing to do with what we were discussing. So you were saying?
 
#168 ·
Sounds like a lot of admin and supervisory experience.[
Right. After writing two books on firearms and firearm usage and after 100 written articles on the topic of firearms and their usage, Fairburn's experience to you "sounds like a lot of admin and supervisory experience." So his expressed view on the subject -- that is opposite of yours -- doesn't count for you. Neither do calculations, based on physics, which I posted, and which also disprove your nonsense based on your "experience."
No doubt you get requests to publish articles and books all the time to allow others to learn from your "unique knowledge and experience" -- that is the basis of your claim that dogs have "armor plate" skulls and thus Winchester 9mm, +P+, LE ammo is inadequate to penetrate, given suitable placement. Roar!
 
#169 ·
Why not quote me? Because you'd have to snip what I write to make is support your lies? :D

I said probably rotts, pitts, or some of these tough dogs. Not all dogs. If I am standing there and see the shot. If I transport the carcass later and see where it hit. Does that not qualify me to say what occurred and judge if a round failed? Does my own use with that round justify me to say what it does vs tough dogs?

Also you didn't post any trig that had anything to do with our discussion. Quote yourself and show what you wrote. It is quite hilarious I feel to anyone with a fundamental understanding on this topic.

Also if I call most of his experience admin and supervisory it is based on what YOU wrote of him. I don't know him and a book does not make one an expert on a topic nor does quoting a book either although your postings here lead me to believe you think it does.

Edit: How many dogs have you skull shot with that round again?
 
#181 ·
What really ticks me is the millions spent researching to go to the. 40 because the 9mm was ineffective then more tax money to decide should have stayed with what we had.
Then to start funding a study if the .380 might be better.

Simple cheap solution: learn how to shoot and practice. If you are an armed agency you should be able to qualify with a .40, .45, .357sig or 9mm. Secret Service feels the .357 SIG $ 5.7 x28 are the best to protect the POTUS & conduct there duties. Practice and proper ammo beats spray & pray. USSS has a lot less incidents and more training than the FBI, just not as good a press office
 
#185 ·
What really ticks me is the millions spent researching to go to the. 40 because the 9mm was ineffective then more tax money to decide should have stayed with what we had.
Then to start funding a study if the .380 might be better.
If the .380 were able to penetrate more deeply, it would be more effective. If the .380 were able to move with greater velocity, it would be more effective. Of course, then it'd be the 9mm or .357 SIG, respectively.

Simple cheap solution: learn how to shoot and practice. If you are an armed agency you should be able to qualify with a .40, .45, .357sig or 9mm. Secret Service feels the .357 SIG $ 5.7 x28 are the best to protect the POTUS & conduct there duties. Practice and proper ammo beats spray & pray. USSS has a lot less incidents and more training than the FBI, just not as good a press office
Of course you "should" be able to do so. However, agencies of all sizes have found real differences in qualification scores among ALL shooters generally improve when moving to 9mm from .40. ALL. Men. Women. Elves. And everything in between. Hits count. Misses lead to lawsuits. USSS has a lot more limited scope of activity than the FBI, and far fewer agents, unless I'm mistaken. And the uniform guys quickly go to 5.56mm when the SHTF, not their .357 SIG sidearms.

The Secret Service employs approximately 3,200 special agents, 1,300 Uniformed Division officers, and more than 2,000 other technical, professional and administrative support personnel.
On February 29, 2012, a total of 35,664 people worked for the FBI, including 13,778 special agents and 21,886 professional staff.
 
#182 ·
Man..... this is the never ending argument.

It's about this simple. None of us with half a brain would volunteer to take a torso shot with 9mm, .40 or .45 for $10. None of us with half a brain would choose any of them over a hunting rifle in .243 for shooting a deer at 200 yards if it meant you would not eat for a week if you didn't drop it. None of us with half a brain would choose any of them over a 12 gauge loaded with 3" magnum slugs against a Kodiak brown bear.

The first rule for any gun fight, is to bring a gun. After that, it's all about preference.

To me, having seen many people shot with many different types of handguns, it was more about the magazine capacity weighed against damage.

Pick what you want, because that is what you want. There is no perfectly right or wrong answer. It's really just a preference. The only wrong choice I see is preferring not to carry a gun.
 
#184 ·
Man..... this is the never ending argument.

It's about this simple. None of us with half a brain would volunteer to take a torso shot with 9mm, .40 or .45 for $10. None of us with half a brain would choose any of them over a hunting rifle in .243 for shooting a deer at 200 yards if it meant you would not eat for a week if you didn't drop it. None of us with half a brain would choose any of them over a 12 gauge loaded with 3" magnum slugs against a Kodiak brown bear.

The first rule for any gun fight, is to bring a gun. After that, it's all about preference.

To me, having seen many people shot with many different types of handguns, it was more about the magazine capacity weighed against damage.

Pick what you want, because that is what you want. There is no perfectly right or wrong answer. It's really just a preference. The only wrong choice I see is preferring not to carry a gun.
+1. Carry what you want. Shoot what you like.
 
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#188 ·
The .45 ACP is what a .40 S&W wants to be when it grows up. The .45 ACP is the gold standard for common self-defense calibers. The .40 S&W promised .45 performance with 9mm capacity. Of course, it delivers neither.
 
#189 ·
Actually, the FBI under U. Patrick's tenure, and after exhaustive two year testing, had obtained slightly better terminal performance with .40 than .45; that's why the FBI went with .40. But of course, not everyone can shoot .40, so the switch to terminally inferior 9mm was recently made. As Urey Patrick made clear (he was a ballistics expert, not a politician), " 9mm is nowhere near as terminally effective as .40 cal."
 
#190 ·
Team GLOCK Wins at Pro-Am and USPSA Area Championships in June

Using Glock 17s and Glock 34s. IN 9MM. IN 9MM. IN 9MM. By choice. For the win. I guess some here would claim they don't practice enough. Or they're weaklings. Or they're not good enough shots to handle the .40 S&W, even though there's no difference in recoil or accuracy. What a crock.
 
#191 ·
Take a look at the youtube video that was posted, where a regular Joe shoots 40 cal faster and more accurately than 9mm. Undoubtedly he is able bodied and practiced quit a bit. I get it; 40 cal is not for you -- nor should it be. Just settle for a terminally inferior caliber, 9mm -- which is easier for you to shoot. No problem. Don't worry be happy, the probability is very small that you will need your 9mm for self -defense.
 
#195 ·
The main thought I came away with after the FBI study and returning the FBI to 9mm, and the claims that 9mm is better for the FBI...

The modern 9mm round is significantly better than the 9mm round used in the miami shootout. It may even be better than the .40...

...if you are comparing the modern 9mm defensive round vs the .40 rounds that were out when the FBI first adopted the .40.

To me the study seems like millions of dollars spent to justify the decision to go to a round that doesn't recoil as much, so that the FBI agents can more easily qualify. In doing this study they are covering their butts against future lawsuits where agents are hurt/killed when the 9mm round doesn't stop the threat. I can very well see the argument that "If it was a .40 instead of a 9mm then the bullet would have killed the attacker much faster, rather than not penetrating far enough and having them manage to kill 2 agents because the round stopped an inch before the heart..."

As everyone likes to point out, any technology used to make the 9mm a more effective round can also be applied to the .40 and .45 with a little bit additional work. The 9mm may have closed the gap a little on terminal effectiveness, but there is no way that it's going to surpass a larger round in an equivalent loading.

Personally, they both have their place. 9mm is great in smaller platforms, and .40 is great in platforms that are designed for it. manufacturers that take a 9mm frame and put a .40 barrel in it do the .40 much more harm to it's popularity than those that do it right.

As long as you can hit the target reliably under stress (which is hard to tell without being in that stressful of a situation) then use the round that makes you the most comfortable. For some that's the 9mm, some it's .45, and for some it's .40. Personally I like the 9mm with standard pressure 124 HST, 9bple, or underwood extreme penetrators (in the back-up magazine). My wife gets the 124 HST because it's much easier to control and less muzzle blast.

I like my 10mm with underwood xtp's in 155grn and 200grn depending on where I'm at.

By the time you go up to +p or +p+ the only benefits I see are a couple extra rounds in the mag, the recoil isn't much different between the two at that point and just the size of the hole changes.

Some people just can't let go, it's ford vs chevy vs dodge. At this point it's drive whatever you want. It's more important that you have a vehicle to drive than what that vehicle is. 99% of us will never drive our vehicles to their full potential, and as most people don't compete or get into defensive shootings on a regular basis, we'll never use the caliber to it's full potential either. (rereading this paragraph makes me realize it's kind of a fuzzy comparison, but hopefully you'll usnderstand what I mean)
 
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#197 ·
As everyone likes to point out, any technology used to make the 9mm a more effective round can also be applied to the .40 and .45 with a little bit additional work. The 9mm may have closed the gap a little on terminal effectiveness, but there is no way that it's going to surpass a larger round in an equivalent loading.
Which I why I still say the .45 ACP is the gold standard for self-defense ammunition. Other rounds might close the gap, but don't fully eliminate it. The .40 S&W may have closed the gap a little on terminal effectiveness, but there is no way that it's going to surpass a larger round in an equivalent loading.
 
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#198 ·
#201 ·
Of course I did not say you said "all" dogs have "armor skulls"; that's the best you can do -- straw man argument.
Well it seems you have "loosened up" on your absurd claim that dogs have an "armor plate" skull and thus a Winchester 9mm, +P+, 127 gr. LE JHP, cannot penetrate it, given suitable placement. LOL.
Hey I'm not perfect nor do I expect you to be perfect. Let us try and remember things from THIS thread though. OK?
Why did my calculations, which showed that your thesis about Win. 127 gr. +P+ LE JHP not being able to penetrate some dogs' "armor plate" skulls "did not apply"? Obviously, because you don't understand physics or math; your pretense to the contrary notwithstanding.
Show me the study where someone applied that round against rott and pitt skulls. Of just rott or just pitt skulls. The energy applied and results. Otherwise you can apply any theory you want but it has zero relevance vs real world failures.

Math is easy. Physics I am a layperson. I can see the results of a that round applied against living things and report what I personally see though. Thus the reason I find your stand on it so amusing.

You've questioned me at length about MY qualifications to speak on this. I have answered you with the core of my experience. I could have gone into greater detail but the paragraphs you have are suffecient. In response to my question of yours you regurigitate the work of others. Frankly I find that very telling.
 
#205 ·
Hey I'm not perfect nor do I expect you to be perfect. Let us try and remember things from THIS thread though. OK?

Show me the study where someone applied that round against rott and pitt skulls. Of just rott or just pitt skulls. The energy applied and results. Otherwise you can apply any theory you want but it has zero relevance vs real world failures.

Math is easy. Physics I am a layperson.
I quoted two references, including an article by an author of two books and 100 articles on the topic of guns and police use of guns,with 30 year police experience -- that refutes your thesis about some dogs having "armor plate" skulls that are impervious to that Win +P+ LE JHP. Physics is just applied math -- and it's obvious that you have hardly any knowledge of it. So, it's not surprising that, despite your baseless statement that my math "doesn't apply," you obviously can't show or prove that. LOL.
I can see the results of a that round applied against living things and report what I personally see though. Thus the reason I find your stand on it so amusing.

You've questioned me at length about MY qualifications to speak on this. I have answered you with the core of my experience. I could have gone into greater detail but the paragraphs you have are suffecient. In response to my question of yours you regurigitate the work of others. Frankly I find that very telling.
Your experience is inadequate to make the statement that you have repeatedly made regarding some dogs' "armor plate" skulls and inadequacy of that LE round to penetrate -- assuming proper placement, of course. NO credible person who is widely recognized as such, who has published articles or books on this subject, agrees with your statement regarding dogs' (any dog's) "armor plate" skulls and inability of that LE round to penetrate, and neither does physics -- as I have shown and you have not been able to challenge it with anything factual. It's amazing that with your proclaimed "experience" in LE, that you have not heard that people indeed have been shot in the head with .40 cal, .45 ACP, even .44 Magnum
rounds and survived. Only a simpleton would, then, make the statement -- as you did regarding some dogs, that some humans have "armor plate" skulls because all these large and powerfull handgun rounds failed to penetrate. LOL.
 
#202 ·
Frankly the thing that amazes me is the all or nothing approach some agencies have. I attribute it to the PC world we live in where we always must cater to the lowest common denominator. Do we have some agents that can't handle 10mm level recoil? Lets me a 40cal gun the general issue. Do we have some agents that can't qualify a good score with a 40cal gun? Lets make a 9mm gun the general issue.

Sure 9mm is cheaper on an agency but cheaper is an idiotic justification when you consider how taxpayer dollars are wasted in general by some. Of course some carrying a gun are small in stature and just flat out not gun people despite their badge. 9mm is what they need. Some are NOT small in stature, practice, and are quite profecient with their caliber of choice.

Is gel testing the answer? Of course not. Does it answer questions that wouldn't be answered otherwise? Of course it does. For all the shootings I've investigated I've never once had to deal with a round that first went through a barrier of any type. My typical investigation is the result of two people in a dispute over drugs or drug money and right out in the open trying to kill eachother.

Is the evidence gained from actual shootings where the "bullet meets the bone" so to speak the answer? Of course not. Does it answer alot and end up disproving the occasional "theory"? Of course it does.

The answer isn't with either. It's with both imo. Those that rely soley on on or the other are missing the whole picture and can claim to be "students" of this but they are wrong.

I'll end this by saying my own agency has the best policy on this I could hope for. The issued gun is a 17 for patrol and either a 17 or 19 for investigators. Carry the issued gun and they provide you with ammo. No mods allowed. Want a 9mm Glock but want to mod it (while not making it unsafe)? Sure thing. Provide your own. Want a 40, 10mm, or 45acp? Sure. You buy the gun, provide ammo, and show you are profecient at the range and you can carry it. Want to modify it? Sure. As long as you don't make it unsafe in the opinion of one of the armorers.

If I was carrying as a private citizen only I'd be carrying a Glock 23 or Glock 22. As an officer I've either carried my Glock 17C or 34. Versus humans based on what I've seen I felt the 9mm duty load provided me was a good choice. It's only recently after a few more incidents that I felt were failures vs. what people have trained to be guard dogs vs. other dealers and the police did I decide my next duty gun would be a 10mm Glock and started building it.

If I knew I was going to have to shoot a human or dog I'd have my rifle ready. The fact is I've yet to have to fire my gun and expected it was going to happen. The gun I had was the one on my side so if my duty round fails for whatever reason I'm going to have to deal right then with the consequence.

One of my favorite shootings was of a man getting shot in the back of the leg running away from a club shooting. That big thick lower leg muscle of his was completely penetrated with a beautiful exit dead center of the shin bone. The round was 45acp round nose. Would a 9mm have done that? I have no idea. All I know is the 45acp that day had enough momentum for that impressive wound. I want a round with more momentum to make sure. Thus my choice to go to 10mm. I have no problems with 10mm level recoil.

Can I shoot faster with a 9mm? Of course. I feel the extra bit of power is a good trade off for me. For those that feel better carrying a 9mm I have not one negative thing to say. I just fail to see why anyone would not have the common sense to temper what they have read with what people actually see.
 
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