All the old high-volume tactical / defensive shotgun forums are now seeing like 1-2 posts a week. And even then, most of those are technical questions about specific models, rather than doctrinal discussions on usage or even basic semi-subjective discussions like 12g vs 20g or auto vs pump. Am I just not looking in the right place for such discussions?
I just got back into shotguns after a stint of rifles-only, and it seems the only folks still talking about them are 3gunners (and everything google finds from about 2013 forward a more often blog articles than discussion posts).
All the old high-volume tactical / defensive shotgun forums are now seeing like 1-2 posts a week. And even then, most of those are technical questions about specific models, rather than doctrinal discussions on usage or even basic semi-subjective discussions like 12g vs 20g or auto vs pump. Am I just not looking in the right place for such discussions?
I just got back into shotguns after a stint of rifles-only, and it seems the only folks still talking about them are 3gunners (and everything google finds from about 2013 forward a more often blog articles than discussion posts).
This discussion comes up every once in a while within my circle of folks. My short answer is that is seemed to be a "Fad" for most folks and like all fads people eventually loose interest.
If that shotgun is not part of your everyday routine, and your not training with it and all the mods and gadgets you've slapped on it, if all it does is sit in your closet or under your bed and collect dust... than you just wasted your money.
I hope not because I will eventually be in the market for one.
I had a Mossberg Maverick 88 pistol grip only version that sat on my shelf for years until I fitted it with a Knoxx Reduced Recoil adjustable stock. I could shoot all day without getting a sore shoulder, but the plastic stock made the gun front-heavy so I sold it to a co-worker for what I had in it.
I'd like to have a youth version semi-auto 20 gauge pistol grip tactical but wonder if there are enough self-defense loads to choose from. With 12 gauge there are quite a few, but since shotguns are such capable and effective weapons I may be overthinking things for what I want one for.
I suspect we're going to see another resurgence of interest in the venerable 12GA shotgun in LE, and if so, it'll follow suit that the interest of the private owner enthusiasts will probably follow the trend and start talking about gadgets, gear and configurations again.
In recent years the "tactical shotgun" classes have waned as everyone was flocking to tactical/patrol rifle classes, and in some places there's a requirement for continued in-service training with rifles to satisfy POST-type training requirements. I've helped teach a couple of 24hr rifle classes earlier this year, and I just found out there's another 3 lined up later this year. I've heard rumbling about maybe a tactical/patrol shotgun class, and shotguns quals were bumped up in frequency in recent years.
A lot of people dislike shotgun training due to the greater recoil.
In LE? Absolutely. Patrol Rifle is absolutely where "long gun" training is now focused. Think about it. Optics. Range. Capacity between reloads. Shotguns are still viable weapons, but in the same way revolvers are still viable weapons. The tactical shotgun will always remain a great option for home defense.
Add lighter weight (some rifles only), light recoil, with easily user-adjustable stocks for small-statured shooters or folks wearing bulky tac/protective vests or cold-weather clothing. A light carbine with optics is a far better choice for general-purpose use than any shotgun, for cops and non-cops alike.
I agree that home defense, or defense of any fixed position with a chokepoint entry, may be the shotgun's last and best use, as long as reloading doesn't enter into the equation. Maybe occasional launching of beanbags or other specialty ammo. I haven't seen any Dragon's Breath, bird-bombs or Bolo rounds for .223 yet...
I like carbines just fine, but if a bad actor is coming through my door at zero dark thirty, I want my 12ga riot gun in my hands.
That's what's in the bedroom.
Most of the "doctrinal" questions have been answered. 12ga beat 20ga and semi beat pump.
I think the biggest reason you don't see as much discussion is age. Most established shooters have already picked a model and set it up how they like. The younger generation of shooters went straight from handguns to ARs. The days of everyone owning a shotgun are over.
If I wasnt clear, IMO thes specific topics fall under "semi-subjective" rather than "doctrinal." But...
I think the biggest reason you don't see as much discussion is age. Most established shooters have already picked a model and set it up how they like. The younger generation of shooters went straight from handguns to ARs. The days of everyone owning a shotgun are over.
Tactical shotguns are cool, they are tactical, and they are practical. However, when they are costing as much as a basic AR15 they tend to lose a lot of appeal.
A basic tactical shotgun will win far far fewer fans than a basic tactical AR15 when costs are the same.
Same for revolver vs. semiauto. You have to really like and want a revolver to pay sometimes twice the cost as its semi-auto counterpart. $850+ for a S&W .357 magnum but $550 for a Glock 20.
I agree with the others. The rifle/carbine resurgence stole the spotlight. In my agency I'm the only one that still carries a shotgun in my car (I carry a suppressed SBR as well). And the admin has been saying they may not let me carry it anymore. I can't think of any other agency in our immediate area that still carrys a shotgun in a lethal capacity
Copy all. Yeah I definitely wouldnt disagree that the carbine is a much more versatile weapon. But, I am kindof bored with mine so I am playing with shotguns again .
It's ironic. I spent years and a lot of my own time and money to master the Remington 870 and S&W 3000 shotguns. Now that I no longer flinch in anticipation of 12ga recoil, and can deliver on-target performance with buck and slugs at appropriate distances, the paradigm changed. I'm hoping that the shotgun remains viable in LE arsenals for defensive purposes. It's too good and versatile a tool to go by the wayside.
I'm certainly no fan of $800.00 revolvers. That's for sure. Now that I shot my buddy's LWRC rifle, I'm spoiled for anything of lesser build quality. Gotta save up.....
All the old high-volume tactical / defensive shotgun forums are now seeing like 1-2 posts a week. And even then, most of those are technical questions about specific models, rather than doctrinal discussions on usage or even basic semi-subjective discussions like 12g vs 20g or auto vs pump. Am I just not looking in the right place for such discussions?
I just got back into shotguns after a stint of rifles-only, and it seems the only folks still talking about them are 3gunners (and everything google finds from about 2013 forward a more often blog articles than discussion posts).
The shotgun is taking its place along side the revolver, both have been replaced for SD by a large variety of new guns of all sizes, shapes and calibers both rifle and handgun. The shotgun remains a versatile gun best suited for hunting or general purpose use in a SHTF situation. The shotguns limited capacity, slow reloading, recoil and limited range are negatives that are no longer acceptable.
Mine is getting dusty, and is still in the bedroom after about 20 years. My first choice for HD is a semi-auto handgun. I really do like the ol' girl, though.....but, she's been replaced. I wouldn't spend the money to have this one, now......
For the vast majority of civilians (putting aside duty use) a good shotgun is no real different in philosophy to a PDW - reaches beyond a pistols practical effective range with slugs, and within the pistols effective range it has better terminal effects.
The same holds true for a carbine, but few civilians would ever find themselves in a tactical scenario where they would need to utilize the carbines range advantage to it's fullest potential and stretch it's legs.
If they are outside a slugs effective range I imagine in most scenarios it would be preferable to disengage if given a choice.
I still prefer the AR / AK, but I'd take a shotgun over a pistol (assuming it's a multi shot pump or auto), though to be honest where I live if the few times I've ended up investigating something it's usually with a pistol since it's easy to have in hand but hide behind a leg or something.
One of our younger guys who favors rifle over shotgun just returned from an outside class where they were comparing AR to shotgun on a veh, using an out-of-service sedan. It was a little gratifying to hear him suddenly talking enthusiastically about the potential effectiveness of a shotgun after he got back. He said he was surprised and impressed by how well the shotgun, using slugs, did against the veh windows and doors. He said one of the shots penetrated both front doors (closed). I reminded him the penetration capabilities of a heavy slug through normal materials was one of the reasons we stressed careful consideration of when to potentially employ slugs versus buckshot.
The shotgun remains a viable choice in some tactical roles, loaded with the right ammunition, even with the heavy emphasis on the modern "patrol rifle". As an occasional "average shooter" discovers to their dismay, though, it's easier than someone might think to miss with a shotgun, even using buckshot, and even shooting at close range (5yds). I've had to help remediate my fair share of shooters when they miss with all their shotgun rounds during a shotgun course-of-fire. The recoil, and fear/hesitation of the recoil, makes a lot of shotgun shooters feel more than a little trepidation, even with reduced recoil buckshot.
I think the Knoxx recoil reducing stock is one of the best things to happen to shotguns. I shot a round of skeet with my FIL last month and was thinking his 870 really kicked compared to my shotgun.
Intended purpose is something to think about for shotguns. Most people should not try and clear a house with one if they have a pistol available. However if you know something is in the house the 12 gauge makes for a comforting partner when holing up to wait for additional support.
When you use a tool you should pick the one whose advantages outweigh its weaknesses. There is a time and place for all manner of firearms. Neglecting a class of firearm eliminates options.
If we're discussing "civilian" use, shotguns will remain a tactical choice in places where other choices are illegal.
Good news is one hit from a 12ga usually works, and has for a long time. More good news is that street thugs usually flee once they are confronted by a "resolute armed defender".
If a trained group attacks me, and they have half a brain, then I'm likely to have a concealed pistol at best. If they're smart, then I'm toast. That's a whole 'nuther issue. Life is not boring.
Seems like the current crop of mall ninjas are all about AR's. The irony is that most of them have never shot a rifle farther than shotgun range, so they should have stuck with shotguns.
The AR can't touch the shotgun at close range, but with the mall ninja crowd it's more about looking cool than actual use.
Seems like the current crop of mall ninjas are all about AR's. The irony is that most of them have never shot a rifle farther than shotgun range, so they should have stuck with shotguns.
The AR can't touch the shotgun at close range, but with the mall ninja crowd it's more about looking cool than actual use.
Yeah, a couple of the other rifle instructors and I were discussing this a couple months ago.
Seeing how many rifles we've been seeing have been hung with enough gadgets to make Han Solo proud, it seems more of an affectation, than actual practicality or the result of experience, may be involved at times.
It's also pretty surprising when someone using any of the newer optics is intimidated when facing having to shoot farther than 25yds. It's a rifle ... with optics (magnified or not, red dot, etc).
Sure, encountering an active shooter in an indoor area, or outside among closely located structures, may easily mean distances under 15yds, but still, you'd expect someone to be able to transition to making accurately aimed, controlled hits at distances farther than across a room, right?
I sometimes suspect that limited range distances offered in some types of training environments, or too much influence from SWAT entry training, may be hobbling some folks in being better able to effectively utilize their rifles within the broad range off what's considered "effective distance" for the rifle caliber.
Properly trained and experienced rifle owners ought to be able to effectively utilize their rifles at more than handgun distances.
Yeah, a couple of the other rifle instructors and I were discussing this a couple months ago.
Seeing how many rifles we've been seeing have been hung with enough gadgets to make Han Solo proud, it seems more of an affectation, than actual practicality or the result of experience, may be involved at times.
It's also pretty surprising when someone using any of the newer optics is intimidated when facing having to shoot farther than 25yds. It's a rifle ... with optics (magnified or not, red dot, etc).
Sure, encountering an active shooter in an indoor area, or outside among closely located structures, may easily mean distances under 15yds, but still, you'd expect someone to be able to transition to making accurately aimed, controlled hits at distances farther than across a room, right?
I sometimes suspect that limited range distances offered in some types of training environments, or too much influence from SWAT entry training, may be hobbling some folks in being better able to effectively utilize their rifles within the broad range off what's considered "effective distance" for the rifle caliber.
Properly trained and experienced rifle owners ought to be able to effectively utilize their rifles at more than handgun distances.
I would also venture to guess that most qualifications with the rifle nowadays are 50 yards at the most. At my old department when i ran the range we qualed at 100 yards and in. Then we also did training out to 500 yards so officers would realize they can hit at that range and how to compensate for bullet drop. We were in a very rural county and most people had hunting rifles. If they chose to they could engage us at that kind of distance
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