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.40 is dying?

47K views 1K replies 152 participants last post by  fortyofforty 
#1 ·
This was my response today at an lgs while I was fondling a g27. Searching for a New daily carry and I'm looking hard at 357 sig and .40 to get the job done. During the conversation the guy behind the counter tells me that because the fbi has quit using the 40 that I should consider 9mm. Said the 40 is now a dying cartridge. Wow? Really? Idk, I just ain't buying it..
 
#84 ·
I remember when the .41AE was introduced. The idea of the rebated rim was interesting, and trying to almost replicate the lower powered .41 Magnum/Police load was intriguing to me.

If the .40 S&W hadn't been developed by S&W and Winchester, stealing the attention and limelight ... the .41AE would probably still be around today.

I wasn't paying attention to the necked down 9AE back then - (I was in the frame of mind back then, as a young man, that I wanted my pistol calibers to begin with the number "4") - but that idea was later echoed in the development of the .357SIG, it seems.
 
#100 ·
I remember when the .41AE was introduced. The idea of the rebated rim was interesting, and trying to almost replicate the lower powered .41 Magnum/Police load was intriguing to me.

If the .40 S&W hadn't been developed by S&W and Winchester, stealing the attention and limelight ... the .41AE would probably still be around today.
I remember 30 years ago going to the 38 Super, it really was not necessary.

The 40 S&W has a great market and it is here to stay.

I was hoping the 45 GAP would get some fanfare but that is a sinking ship.
 
#87 ·
Am I then only one that remembers the old trick of adding weight to a gun so it will recoil less and be more controllable in rapid fire? That is why I'm so happy about all these cheap 40 cal Glocks hitting the market. Not because I want a 40 cal Glock to shoot 40 out of. So I can put a KKM conversion barrel in said Glock. I'm hoping to get a full size (22 or 35) Glock this weekend at a gun show just for that purpose.
 
#89 ·
The weight diff between a 9mm & 40 version is minimum, not affecting the recoil equation that much IMO. Now a 9mm in a 45 size gun, yes.
 
#94 ·
Sounds like the guy at one of the lgs that told me I should get my 115 lb recoil shy wife an airweight 38 special for the concealed carry class we were taking that also required 200 rounds of ammunition. I just listened politely, then went to the next gun store and bought her a 9mm there.
Just because a round isn't what the FBI chooses for it's desk jockeys to qualify with doesn't mean it's dying, it just means most FBI agents need help with their quals.
You got it. When it comes to government it's whats cheapest and most efficient. I like 9mm plenty and carry it a lot.

But I'd take a Glock 22 over a 1911 any day. Twice the rounds and more FPE per shot. Thats's one bad gun. Along with the G31 and the 10mm models.

40 isn't going anywhere.
 
#96 ·
There is a reason almost all of the top competitors use 9mm. Accurate fire, at speed. When multiple, fast hits count, the choice is obvious. If you're sure you only need to hit once, anything will do. And the people who pretend the weight of a pistol is of no consequence are idiotic. Thousands of people are carrying today who wouldn't have only a few years ago, due to the reduced size and weight of many handguns. As much as I like my .40, I don't pretend there is no difference in quick hits with a 9mm. The proof is in the shot timer. It's not enough to cause me to carry one over the other, but it is there nonetheless.
 
#97 ·
The proof is in the shot timer. It's not enough to cause me to carry one over the other, but it is there nonetheless.
I used to think that, one reason I still carry a 45, but could faster split times matter? Sure. Taking into account human reaction times, it could mean the diff between landing 1 or 2, vs 2 or 3 hits before the bad guy gets his one. I am talking accurate shots on target at speed. Is 3 hits with a good 9mm better than two with a 40 or 45 in the same less than 1sec period? Just food for thought.
 
#110 ·
How many countries beside the USA is .40 popular or even have a presence?
The Australian Police use this caliber in most States, I suspect when their service weapons are reviewed this may change to 9mm
 
#112 ·
[the .40 S&W is/was a compromise (poor one) for a problem based on poor training and blaming a two specific cartridges. several problems: 1. a high pressure round developed to and made to fit into 9mm frames, not designed to handle the pressures. 2. It is a cut down 10mm. 3. it was cut down to fit hands, mid frame size, and "recoil sensitive" LEOs (The same withe the .45 GAP). . 4. extremely poor tactics, tactical training and arms and armor for use in a KNOWN high risk threat.
The old problems of 9 v 45 were surrounded by ball ammo. current 9mm design is greatly improved. As is 45 ACP. remember that you still must fire 2 9mm for weight of one 45 ACP. AS ALWAYS< SHOT PLACEMENT> regardless of caliber is the main factor. Shoot the biggest, fastest bullet you can ACCURATELY. Consider training ammo cost.
From a professional stand point and looking at LEAs I work with, the only ones who use the 40 S&W or 45 GAP are the ones who swallowed the kool aid and put way too much money in the gear and bragged about how the FBI said it was and cannot loose face.

get a quality 45ACP, 9mm, 38 +p. Shoot a lot. shoot your carry load once a month........
 
#113 ·
Still like my .40 for HD but the size/weight thing has driven me down to 9mm and less for carry. The price of .40 for practice alone would cause me to suggest 9mm to new shooters though.
 
#114 ·
Except in magazine challenged states. 10+1, another reason i still carry the 45. At 7yds & under, my split times are virtually identical. At 8-15y, i am faster with the 9. Beyond that, we all slow down enough to get good hits, recoil isnt the issue.
Yes, that's true. If you live in a location where you're limited to how much you're allowed to protect yourself, it sucks. Coming soon to a whole country near you, if the election goes badly.
 
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#115 · (Edited)
The G23.4 is the Pearl of the GLOCK line-up, and the .40 round an optimized .45 ACP.

If GLOCK would make a G36 in .40...? It would be a 4" Bbl'ed 8+1.

And that would be plenty sweet as well.




Nutter
The Shield 40 is a surprisingly nice handling and controllable single stack in the subcompact 3" category, and it's 6+1 & 7+1 capacity makes it a lot of little gun.

I'd heard a couple of the other guys express how they thought it had a lot of snap for such a little gun, but when I grabbed the T&E gun to spend some range time with it, I found it surprisingly easy recoiling and quite manageable.

As a matter of fact, I liked the recoil management of the smaller gun than that of my M&P 40c. Surprising. While strictly subjective, I'd have to put the Shield 40 in the category of being not as controllable as my 4013TSW & SW9940, similar to my 4040PD, but better than my 40c & G27 (and I've fired close to 17K rounds just through the G27, so I'm fairly familiar with it).

If I were tempted to buy a Shield, I'd lean toward the .40 model, but I've got more than enough .40's & 9's to keep me going.

Comparing 9's, .40's & .45's is something upon which a lot of enthusiasts can't usually agree, but everyone's got their reasons for favoring one or another caliber.

I've fired a few tens of thousands of .40 S&W since I grudgingly decided to add the caliber to my own collection at the end of the 90's, and during that time I've noticed that no matter how much "better" and more comfortable I become shooting .40's, it keeps making me a better 9mm shooter. ;) (I can say the same thing from being a long time .45 shooter, too.)

Even though the market would probably accept it, to some degree, I rather doubt we'll see Glock release a G36-sized .40, or S&W release a 40c-sized single stack .40. Too many people are finding 9mm an acceptable compromise in several respects in the smaller, thinner guns, and the bulk of the current market demand is reflecting that preference. Who knows, though? People who aren't carrying "work" equipment, but are spending their own money for their hobbies, can be fickle when it comes to things like caliber and brands of ammunition.
 
#121 ·
The Shield 40 is a surprisingly nice handling and controllable single stack in the subcompact 3" category, and it's 6+1 & 7+1 capacity makes it a lot of little gun....
Like them in 9mm, but just a little petite and short Bbl'ed for the power of a .40.

A single-stack G23.4 is what I am lookin' for.




Nutter
 
#116 ·
There is most definitely a move back to the 9mm by law enforcement in general, not just the FBI. That said, the vast majority of law enforcement agencies always seem to be light years behind the curve, so the .40 is not disappearing overnight, by any means.

The reasons for the switch by LE are that the 9mm costs less (more budget friendly), carries more rounds in a similar sized magazine, has less recoil (officers are mostly inexperienced shooters, if they have any shooting experience at all, and they are smaller, with less strength generally than a couple of generations ago when departments only hired men and had minimum height requirements), less recoil translates into faster follow-up shots, and it is said that improvements in projectiles make the 9mm perform about the same as LE ammo of other calibers in ballistic gelatin tests, thereby justifying the idea that it has about the same stopping power as other LE calibers. In fact, the FBI's experts now say there is simply no such thing as "stopping power" and that all handgun rounds are insufficient stoppers.

The truth is that unqualified employees, of small stature, simply cannot shoot, and it is all the trainers can do, in many cases, to get someone qualified with a lesser round. There are those who vehemently deny this, especially as to the FBI, who insist that all agents can adequately handle their firearms. Fine, I will leave the FBI out of this discussion of ability of the current hires, but at least as to other agencies, I am not buying that, and I consider it a load of bull. Even as to the FBI, I note that while they issued the .40, the 9mm was issued to those who had trouble qualifying with it. If they were all so good, the FBI would not have had to spend millions in tax money for sophisticated dry-firing weapons hooked to computers to allow agents to see their "flinching" graphically, and they would not have had to authorize a second standard weapon for those who simply could not qualify with the .40.

I suppose we have Christine Hanson to thank for that. Recall that she is the FBI agent who made an EEOC complaint back in the late 70s or very early 80s because she felt discriminated against because she was going to lose her job because she could not qualify with the K frame. Instead, an administrative decision said she had to be given a non-standard weapon as an accommodation for her inabilities on the shooting range with the K frame. In any event, accommodation with the 9mm would not be necessary if all personnel were able to adequately manage the .40.

The bottom line is that adoption of the 9mm by the FBI or by any other agency does not mean the .40 or .45 ACP have gotten any worse. Remember that no one EVER says that a bigger caliber is "just as good as the 9mm." Everyone always says that the 9mm is just as good as the .40 or .45 ACP.

So, while agencies, who make decisions for all sorts of other reasons, adopt the 9mm, it does not mean that the .40 or .45 ACP are worse. And remember, WE (non LE people - note I do not use the term civilian as ALL LAW ENFORCEMENT, except military, ARE CIVILIANS) may not be able to get the super-duper next gen elephant killing 9mm hollow point with the little thingy in the tip. If you have to use good ole' Wal-Mart ball ammo, best to use the 230 grain .45 ACP. It worked on the drugged up Moros. It will work on drugged up thugs as well.

:)
 
#123 · (Edited)
There is most definitely a move back to the 9mm by law enforcement in general, not just the FBI. That said, the vast majority of law enforcement agencies always seem to be light years behind the curve, so the .40 is not disappearing overnight, by any means.

The reasons for the switch by LE are that the 9mm costs less (more budget friendly), carries more rounds in a similar sized magazine, has less recoil (officers are mostly inexperienced shooters, if they have any shooting experience at all, and they are smaller, with less strength generally than a couple of generations ago when departments only hired men and had minimum height requirements), less recoil translates into faster follow-up shots, and it is said that improvements in projectiles make the 9mm perform about the same as LE ammo of other calibers in ballistic gelatin tests, thereby justifying the idea that it has about the same stopping power as other LE calibers. In fact, the FBI's experts now say there is simply no such thing as "stopping power" and that all handgun rounds are insufficient stoppers.

The truth is that unqualified employees, of small stature, simply cannot shoot, and it is all the trainers can do, in many cases, to get someone qualified with a lesser round. There are those who vehemently deny this, especially as to the FBI, who insist that all agents can adequately handle their firearms. Fine, I will leave the FBI out of this discussion of ability of the current hires, but at least as to other agencies, I am not buying that, and I consider it a load of bull. Even as to the FBI, I note that while they issued the .40, the 9mm was issued to those who had trouble qualifying with it. If they were all so good, the FBI would not have had to spend millions in tax money for sophisticated dry-firing weapons hooked to computers to allow agents to see their "flinching" graphically, and they would not have had to authorize a second standard weapon for those who simply could not qualify with the .40.


:)
I agree Mostly, but size of the shooter has nothing to do with ability to shoot a handgun. Its training, technique & practice. There are some ridiculously good small stature lady shooters out there.
 
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#117 · (Edited)
As 9mm becomes even more popular, sales of .40S&W are dropping. Gunshop sales people are right when they say that sales of .40S&W caliber pistols are down. But that doesn't by any means indicate that the .40S&W caliber is dying. It is still a very well respected and chosen platform with those who have more experience with shooting pistols.

Newbies to pistols are overwhelmingly drawn to 9mm for the low recoil. And there are a lot of first-time pistol buyers buying pistols these days. I think they are the ones who are predominantly driving the boom in sales of 9mm pistols. They and pocket-pistol buyers.

I'm ok with 9mm as a defense caliber, given the right premium defense ammo. It's not a bad choice.

But the .40S&W is still ballistically superior to 9mm and also allows relatively high capacity. The blend of higher potency than 9mm and higher capacity than .45auto makes .40S&W a wonderful caliber choice!

I never enjoyed shooting .40S&W in my G23, but when I fired .40S&W in my S&W M&P40 Compact, I really began to enjoy the caliber. The M&P40 and M&P40C both handle .40S&W very comfortably, reliably, and accurately.

When DocGKR recommended the M&P40 full size for me to try out, I followed that recommendation. And now that I have plenty of experience with the M&P40, it has become my #1 defense pistol choice. Holds 16-rounds of .40S&W, shoots softly, accurately, and reliably. It also carries and conceals easily with my typical shorts and t-shirt attire.



As mentioned earlier, the 180 gr. defense loads, when fired in a soft-shooting platform like the M&P40 makes this caliber exceptionally comfortable and easy to shoot well. When I added an M&P40 to the M&P40C, I really became a lover of the caliber and now, they are my primary carry pistols.
 
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#120 ·
As 9mm becomes even more popular, sales of .40S&W are dropping. Gunshop sales people are right when they say that sales of .40S&W caliber pistols are down. But that doesn't by any means indicate that the .40S&W caliber is dying. It is still a very well respected and chosen platform with those who have more experience with shooting pistols.

Newbies to pistols are overwhelmingly drawn to 9mm for the low recoil. And there are a lot of first-time pistol buyers buying pistols these days. I think they are the ones who are predominantly driving the boom in sales of 9mm pistols. They and pocket-pistol buyers.

I'm ok with 9mm as a defense caliber, given the right premium defense ammo. It's not a bad choice.

But the .40S&W is still ballistically superior to 9mm and also allows relatively high capacity. The blend of higher potency than 9mm and higher capacity than .45auto makes .40S&W a wonderful caliber choice!

I never enjoyed shooting .40S&W in my G23, but when I fired .40S&W in my S&W M&P40 Compact, I really began to enjoy the caliber. The M&P40 and M&P40C both handle .40S&W very comfortably, reliably, and accurately.

When DocGKR recommended the M&P40 full size for me to try out, I followed that recommendation. And now that I have plenty of experience with the M&P40, it has become my #1 defense pistol choice. Holds 16-rounds of .40S&W, shoots softly, accurately, and reliably. It also carries and conceals easily with my typical shorts and t-shirt attire.



As mentioned earlier, the 180 gr. defense loads, when fired in a soft-shooting platform like the M&P40 makes this caliber exceptionally comfortable and easy to shoot well. When I added an M&P40 to the M&P40C, I really became a lover of the caliber and now, they are my primary carry pistols.
:thumbsup:


Yeah, listening to gun store counter sales people is like listening to any other sales person. At best, it reflects what they have to sell, ... what they've been selling (in their small area) ... and what they'd like to see sold (slow moving & older inventory) ... none of which is necessarily indicative of anything outside of that store's area. People (customers) are unpredictable and fickle from one day to the next. ;)

I agree that new gun owners & less experienced shooters are driving the popularity of the lesser recoiling 9mm. It's easier and more fun to shoot. Less effort to achieve an acceptable (personally) level of "skill". That makes it a good choice for agencies having to train a large and disparate work force, too.

I've heard the M&P 40 called the softest recoiling duty-size .40 by several people, including some other instructors who have a lot of experience with all 3 major duty calibers.

I'll grant that the new production M&P 40 I was issued late last year is indeed a soft shooting .40 for a duty gun. It's actually more fun to shoot than my own M&P 45 FS, and doesn't "feel" like it has much more felt recoil than a 9mm ... until you shoot a M&P 9, of course. The optional M&P grip inserts change both the backstrap and the palm swell dimensions of the M&P, which offers an arguably better range of "ergonomic options" than just the backstrap replacement of the G4 Glocks (which has finally achieved "parity" with state-of-the-art for the concept as introduce by Walther in the P99 in the 90's).
 
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#118 ·
Which is why we train to fire until the threat is visibly stopped, or shoot and move to the second and third threats, then back again, until the threats are all stopped or you run out of ammunition (which is less likely with 9mm than any other major caliber).
Which is why it's lol to imply a person picks a 'weak and ineffective as a general rule' handgun round on the idea that being fractionally 'more' than another round means they might get a one shot stop when they fire one perfectly placed round and then wait to see what happens
 
#119 ·
Which is why we train to fire until the threat is visibly stopped, or shoot and move to the second and third threats, then back again, until the threats are all stopped or you run out of ammunition (which is less likely with 9mm than any other major caliber).
:cheers:
 
#124 ·
[the .40 S&W is/was a compromise (poor one) for a problem based on poor training and blaming a two specific cartridges. several problems: 1. a high pressure round developed to and made to fit into 9mm frames, not designed to handle the pressures. 2. It is a cut down 10mm. 3. it was cut down to fit hands, mid frame size, and "recoil sensitive" LEOs (The same withe the .45 GAP). . 4. extremely poor tactics, tactical training and arms and armor for use in a KNOWN high risk threat.
The old problems of 9 v 45 were surrounded by ball ammo. current 9mm design is greatly improved. As is 45 ACP. remember that you still must fire 2 9mm for weight of one 45 ACP. AS ALWAYS< SHOT PLACEMENT> regardless of caliber is the main factor. Shoot the biggest, fastest bullet you can ACCURATELY. Consider training ammo cost.
From a professional stand point and looking at LEAs I work with, the only ones who use the 40 S&W or 45 GAP are the ones who swallowed the kool aid and put way too much money in the gear and bragged about how the FBI said it was and cannot loose face.

get a quality 45ACP, 9mm, 38 +p. Shoot a lot. shoot your carry load once a month........
:shocked:
 
#125 ·
I may be out of phase. Feels like it. I don't recall if I ever fired .40 from my G23 because I immediately acquired a LWD 9mm for it and four G19 mags, reloaded a thousand 9mm rounds and that's all I had fired from it. I might add never changed the ejector or extractor. I also discovered that .40 mags feed 9mm just fine...not that I need to and definitely would not use them for EDC..

I now have an LWD .357 Sig in the G23 and just acquired a second Glock .40 magazine (which curiously has a #9 follower in it). The first is marked LE/military only and has a #5 follower. The new mag is a bear to load. It has Glock Austria ,40 on it, but wow...hope it softens up (or I toughen up).

After (of course) getting the 357 Sig barrel, I begin reading that the 357 Sig is not very popular and is kind of dying. Finding HP ammo without getting $raped is a bit of a challenge. I am on a waiting list at Corbon, which tells me they will be running 357 Sig this coming week.

I made the change from .40 (for EDC) based on the 357 Sig 125 grain having higher energy and penetrating ability and lighter weight (14 times 125 grain bullets v. 14 times 165 or 180).

I think the 357 Sig v. .40 argument is just a modern version of the old light fast v heavy slow argument.

I also think marketing is the primary engine driving general beliefs and acceptances. If a majority of police departments use XX, it's not because every department has a ballistics expert or laboratory running tests when deciding which to buy. It's because the purse string desk fliers have bought what a good sales person has sold them, or the company has made the best deal such as trade-ins of existing equipment.

Time is on the side of the best perceptions. Perceptions are not always rooted in fact. Sometimes even facts, accurately observed, are still incomplete pictures.

When in doubt, buy and shoot at least one example of each. :)
 
#131 ·
Nah, always be the 9 vs 45 debate.
 
#128 ·
.40 is reducing in popularity.


There have been some really good deals on guns/ammo in .40 recently because of this.

It's still going to be one of the Big 3 (or 3.5) semi auto rounds though. People will want something between 9 and 45 just-because



It must really suck to be you lol


That is about the dumbest argument possible.




An FNS 40 from PSA when they put them on sale for $320 with night sights
At least i dont lick my own butt:dog:
 
#130 ·
100% of the reason my department went to 9mm was the fact that officers were complaining about the recoil of the 45GAP and then the 40. Now I've never thought the 40 was difficult to control and in fact the recoil issue with it in my department was the result of 2 things...
1. Perception.
2. Lack of training. As in NONE. Officers were issued guns, spare mags, ammo, and then went and qualified. Add to the fact that like most departments I've seen the typical firearms instructor is an instructor just for the sake of being an instructor and really doesn't give a damn about people that fail to qualify or are borderline.
 
#139 ·
I don't know if it's the recoil of the 40 S&W that's difficult for people as much as it is the snap and muzzle report. I agree, it's not that difficult to control for people willing to really put in the time and master it.

That said, I do think the 40 S&W might not be the best choice for someone new to handgunning. The average person with no handgun experience would become more proficient, more quickly with either 9mm or 45ACP than they would with the 40. Training is key, to be sure.
 
#137 ·
The 9mm seems to have better resale value around here. I've seen my local shop decline to buy .40's quite a few times while saying "if it was a 9mm we'd be happy to buy it." People trading in .40's seem to take a beating. I also noticed that on the gun sale sites for my area a Glock 19 will sell rather quickly while a Glock 23 or 22 will still be for sale weeks later even though they are priced to sell.
 
#140 ·
That's the same case in my area also Fuse. The 9's are hot and out of stock often. Especially the Glock 19. I am warming up to the P938, but its low capacity. With all the crazies out there recently I like to carry my 27 or 23 with an extra 23 mag nearby.
 
#141 ·
Get the G27, get the 9mm conversion barrel, get the .357 Sig barrel. Use the appropriate magazines and blaze away! Kind of a no brainer, the guy behind the counter only has an opinion. I don't think the FBI ever used the 45-70 and it is still alive and well!
 
#142 ·
Interesting and relevant observation.

"Fighting" (handling/shooting) better probably comes from the relationship of the grip frame size/dimensions and how controllability can be realized.

Reloading "ease", for many folks, seems to fall more within the comfortable and convenient range when a certain grip height is achieved. (Not having to shift aside your little finger to find the mag well opening, or getting your fingers pinched when seating the fresh mag.)

Both of these are certainly valid concerns, and there's nothing wrong with optimizing things by choosing the best "fit" for the gun-to-hand relationship in this regard.

Sometimes, though, in order to stick with a "preferred" brand, you might have to compromise and make adjustments in what you're willing to accept in the capacity/fit categories.

There's never been such a mind boggling array and selection of pistol choices as we have today.
The largest pistol, w/ the most power, and adequate capacity - that you can Shoot well, comfortably carry, and conceal.

For me, it's this: the G36 6+1+6 .45 ACP


I can literally Tactically Reload it w/ my eyes closed in ~ 3 seconds, and it handles like a Compact GLOCK.




Nutter
 
#143 ·
40 seems to be losing momentum for sure and 9 is really enjoying an upswing right now. I mean...cheaper to shoot which means more trigger time. And with modern defensive ammo the terminal ballistics differences between 9 and 40 is nothing much to write home about. Plus more rounds in the magazine (speaking of capable glock models). A lot of LE agencies are heading toward 9mm, too. And some are going to other calibers besides 9mm, but still moving away from 40.
 
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