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When the four rules don't matter.

4K views 49 replies 18 participants last post by  SCmasterblaster 
#1 ·
Here in Oklahoma City there is a range called Wilshire Gun. They are a sponser of KTOK talk radio. The stations program manager, and one of its talkshow hoats, Lee Matthews does these videos concerning firearms at Wilshire Gun's range most every week.
I posted on this site previously a "training" video that showed "Gunny", one of the trainers, sweeping his leg while engaging a "bad guy" from a simulated drivers seat in a "car". Then Lee does the same thing as Gunny did covering his legs on the draw. There was some discussion here about it.
So now to last Friday and the latest video. During this one the retail manager Blue Buchanan demostrates a magnet gun holder. At the start he has a Glock in his holster and talks about how he carries a G17. As the demo goes along he picks up a "G17" from the back counter, his holster is EMPTY, by the muzzle and also covers his body in addition to his hand. He holds it up and we can see that a magazine is inserted and the trigger is forward meaning the gun is cocked. He also covered a large area in the store area.
I called and talked to Blue about the video and when he was called on the safety violations his first response was that Gunny and he were sufficiently qualified to act the way they did. When I gave him some of my "qualifications" he then stated that well, actually it was one of their rental guns off the wall and it had been throughly checked to make sure it was unloaded. Ok sure who am I to say he isn't telling the truth; but, even given that, it does not excuse his unsafe handling of a firearm.
Some may say, "What's the beef". The beef is this is a gunstore,firing range, training facillity who job it is to promote among other things the proper and safe handling of firearms. And they are promoted as being the cat's meow on the radio station. Then again maybe I am just getting old.
Video that is referenced:
http://ktok.iheart.com/onair/lee-matthews-44000/sticky-holstersfire-arms-friday-14139429/
 
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#2 ·
That's the reason we say "negligent discharge" now instead of "accidental discharge". People who know better are just as likely to put a hole where they don't want one if they ignore the rules. Assumption is the mother of all f-ups.
 
#3 ·
Just don't pull the trigger. That's the essential rule.

Breaking the other 3 rules won't make a loud noise.

Pretending that it's loaded, knowing the backstop, and not pointing it at people are nice, feel good rules that can be broken without serious consequences unless the trigger gets pulled.
 
#4 ·
I remember your post on the simulated vehicle engagement.

I (too) cringe when people are presented as knowledgeable demonstrate poor gun handling, particularly to the general public - it (can) make us all look bad.

Almost all, firearm accidents are caused by ignorance and/or complacency. Seems like there is plenty of complacency with your local guys.

When I joined a range several years ago, all new members had to attend a mandatory safety briefing by the RSO before even removing a firearm from their vehicle. Our "safety officer" removed a gun from his holster, swept his leg, put his hand in front of the muzzle, swept me in the mid-section (twice) and swept the other new member across the chest - all in about 5 seconds. We were just happy to survive the safety briefing.

I go with the NRA "three rules". There might be a dire situation where one, or more, of the three (or four) rules might need to be violated - but demonstrations of techniques and products aren't dire circumstances.

I had a pretty good instructor that would give $5 to anyone who caught him sweeping anyone in the class - even with a blue gun.
 
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#7 ·
My reading of that is, all guns are loaded until you have personally checked and verified otherwise, and then, you still treat it as if it was. I still don't cover anything I'm not willing to destroy with the muzzle of my gun, even when I'm pressing the trigger before I take it apart.
 
#8 ·
As long as they made sure all those guns were empty, they could have juggled them for all I care. I agree with Chute, there are times when the rules can be ignored for various reasons.

You safety whiners remind me of a recent incident. I had just run a two man course of fire with my partner at a match. We cleared our weapons, the safety officers checked they were clear and we put our chamber flags in. While we were standing around waiting for them to score our targets I rested the end of my suppressor on the toe of my boot. You would have thought I had done a tactical somersault while firing wildly in all directions. He was very upset that I would point a gun at my foot. I explained to him that once it's been checked twice and flagged, it's just a big paperweight.
 
#42 · (Edited)
While we were standing around waiting for them to score our targets I rested the end of my suppressor on the toe of my boot. You would have thought I had done a tactical somersault while firing wildly in all directions. He was very upset that I would point a gun at my foot. I explained to him that once it's been checked twice and flagged, it's just a big paperweight.
Some shotgun sports make that such a common and accepted practice that they sell leather protectors to rest a muzzle upon a shoe:


Rugged Gear makes gun carts with muzzles down for 3 gun events, or muzzles up for cowboy events.
Some classes or competitions require slings on long guns, some prohibit slings as unsafe.
 
#9 ·
People make mistakes, and guns have problems too. Some Garands and early Glocks could slamfire, WWII Walther P-38's could fire when you dropped the hammer with the "safety", etc..

If you do your best to obey all four rules, you greatly decrease your chances of causing damage or injury if you or the gun make a mistake. Relying on just one rule (Don't pull the trigger) when the others are "available", is foolish.
Airlines have a specific point in the approach by when the landing gear should be lowered, and a checklist to verify, and a warning system if you forget. Forgetting one or even two items shouldn't cause anything more than embarrassment. Aviation has learned that redundant layers of safety are important.

There are times in real tactical situations where it's almost unavoidable to sweep people whom you don't want to shoot, it's just too hectic. But to the extent possible, I always follow all four and insisted that my officers do the same. That attitude has allowed my to be shooting for 55 years and carrying a gun daily for 40, without any AD or ND. But I never start thinking that I can relax, or that it can't happen to me.
 
#11 ·
#12 ·
I have people point "cold" guns at me during my advanced classes. Otherwise always practice the 4 Always.
 
#13 ·
Thus subconsciously imprinting the fact that it's OK to point unloaded guns at someone. Hey, it's just training.

Buy some blue guns (or red or whatever) for training to imprint upon their subconscious that training can be different than handling real guns. Watch their trigger fingers here.
 
#17 · (Edited)
I agree. But again, an unloaded hot weapon is not the same thing as a cold weapon.

See Ken Murray "Training at the speed of life."

Or Rex Applegates "Klll or Get Killed." p 125
 
#18 ·
Just because someone calls themselves an instructor, doesn;t mean they always know what they are doing. I've had good ones & bad ones, why I try to be a good one. Last thing you want to do in a gunfight is shoot yourself.
 
#22 ·
An air marshal told me once that if I had to worry about muzzle control when clearing a plane full of passengers he'd never make it. Yes, his finger is off the trigger and ones in the pipe, but like he said to watch everybody and not sweep anyone he'd have to lose all his focus on scanning the plane for the bad guy, and this is a time critical event and he cant afford to lose that kinda time. This mentality/ job takes another level of training the avg joe shouldnt be doing and would not be capable of performing under intense stress reliably of the time. 100%. Everyboby thinks that they are super good and super safe and they could do this and its always some other joe that couldnt, Simple range exercises with multi-tasking will easily prove them wrong.
 
#26 ·
I served with the guy that implemented their program. I think their is a difference between deliberately planning to break a rule and having a situation that overwhelms it. Some folks may say they assess everyone that comes into their personal space,,,,,,,, until they ride the subway. The rule is overwhelmed vs I am so well trained I don'y need to obey it. I know it seems like semantics.
 
#23 ·
Rules are good. Sometimes you will violate one or more of rules. I just read a file of NDs. 98% were when drawing firearm, or reholstering. So its CLEAR that the muzzle was covering part of shooters body.
Learning to keep finger off trigger is most important. Watching muzzle is important. true. You get in confined places, need to remove gun without notice. (say in car when you have to go into Federal building) Odds are you will sweep yourself with muzzle.
 
#24 ·
We had a idiot die here recently of a negligent stupid ass complete moron discharge. SGT in the military was at one of his buddies house had his gun and wanted to prove the gun was empty so the brilliant idiot according to the newspaper racked the slide and dropped the magazine those are the papers words and then he proceeds to put the gun to his head and pull the trigger to prove the gun was empty. Guess what his friends got a close up of a gunshot to the head.
 
#25 ·
^^^
Yeah, I had to help a friend bury his 18-yr-old son after he did the exact same thing. He was out shooting, just fooling around with his buddies on a sunny afternoon. They were headed home. Somebody told him to be careful with a gun, and his reply went something like, It's not loaded, see...
 
#27 ·
And.... This is one of the ways people get shot in training class.

I "get it" about advanced training.There is a place for hot ranges and always hot firearms.

Talking to "Joe Public" is a COMPLETELY different situation however!!!

Hope these Range Owners have their liability insurance paid up. Looks like a lawsuit waiting to happen.

Think of it this way - Ever met a guy missing one or two fingers from a table saw accident??? He NOW runs the table saw a little differently because of the experience. Typically the ONLY person at risk in that scenario is the Table Saw Operator.

Now, imagine a class of new people who probably have never experienced or witnessed a negligent discharge... This is NOT a time to lapse into 'hot weapons training' mode... or start muzzling without care and explanation.

Doesn't that make sense?

As a TRAINER, you are OBLIGATED to Do It Right Every Time for the new people so that they, and their loved ones, will survive until they reach the level where they make a decision to graduate (if they qualify) to the higher level training opportunities.

That is responsible training. Anything else is just an excuse for Sloppy Training Skills.

New people NEED to get RESPECT for the power they hold in their hands, THEN once they qualify for advanced skills, I would send them to someone who offers those classes.

I don't train a lot of people, it's my avocation, but this is how I feel about it.

YES, I do have some carry methods that work for me that I really don't talk about to new people cause they won't see the whole picture of "why I do it this way" for a few more years.

Bottom line with **** Sapiens - We must first roll over, learn to crawl, drag our butts to our feet and fall down a bunch, then finally start walking... and at some point we learn to RUN...

But we do not come out of the womb Running...

Takes time, and Perfect Practice to WIN an Olympic Medal, Firearms Training requires strong fundamentals to advance to the Big Boy Skillz...

My $0.02 is done... :)
 
#29 ·
So, when you know that a situation is going to overwhelm the rule best practice, do you train for what's really going to happen, or do you insert an artificiality into training for safety's sake?

The answer, like so many things IMO, is "it depends". But what do you believe it depends on? As a for instance, if I were training the Air Marshal, I'd let him do what he wanted with his muzzle and put the emphasis on a smart finger. There's no danger in flagging a bunch of no-shoot pieces of cardboard, nor in flagging real live role players with sims. But any actual shots fired would have to meet the same scrutiny as they would in the real world. If I were training a recruit Air Marshal, I might do it differently. Not sure.

Thoughts?
 
#30 ·
IMHO, I think you train the way you intend to fight. Sadly, it does not always go that way. If and when you have to shoot someone, your gross motor skills and tunnel vision will focus you on the target, unless you are really good at autonomic breathing. You may never realize it happened and in the end, it may not have mattered.

If you work in an environment, like the FAM's and you know its going to happen or its impossible to accomplish the mission otherwise, then you do what the mission dictates and mitigate the risk some other way, if possible. After all I would rather get flagged and have the bad guy die than vice verse.

I think the difference is if the mission dictates it, not someone's opinion of how cool they are or as an excuse for being negligent.
 
#37 · (Edited)
While I agree you have to mentally be ready to point gun AT threat... You don't need to actually point a real gun at training partner (or shoot by them) in order to be ready.
Have you ever been shot at?

And Im not asking that to belittle you or anything of the sort. But i thought it dangerous when my drill sergeants were firing M60's over my head at one point in my then young life. It scared me to hear the whiz and crack of bullets flying overhead.

When it happened for real a year or so later, i understood completely that it had been necesarry. Because then i was accustomed to it, and it wasnt as scary the second time around as it might have otherwise been.

Of course im not advocating dangerous training. Or to do anything you feel unconfortable with. But real guns can be made safe if youre not a complete idiot, and the sound of gunfire by your head is something that will rattle the uninitiated to the core.

Train the way you like, but remember that bad guys dont use Blue Guns, and want nothing more than to snatch your life away as quickly as possible. Remember too, that unless you train as you fight...as a fight actually occurs, you're setting yourself up for failure. Or at the very least to survive only by luck.
 
#38 ·
Train the way you like, but remember that bad guys dont use Blue Guns, and want nothing more than to snatch your life away as quickly as possible. Remember too, that unless you train as you fight...as a fight actually occurs, you're setting yourself up for failure. Or at the very least to survive only by luck.
Have you been training longer than since last Thursday? Welcome, n00b.

Many of us here have enough training experiences over the years (and decades) to recognize the advantages of safe hand to hand self defense sparring with blue guns and rubber knives far outweigh letting somebody point a real gun at someone.

Do not point a real gun at me, or anyone I might protect. Ever.
I don't care that you feel that you unloaded it, just don't do it.
I won't tolerate it.
 
#40 ·
I'm no noob, you can take that as gospel.

You don't have to train with me if you don't like, but I don't ever remember inviting you anyhow? Strange...

Cast all the aspersions you like. Say whatever makes you feel good about yourself. My skill relies not upon your approval, nor did my survival of situatioms what would leave most grown men in a crying mess.
 
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