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Can Most LEOs Shoot Straight?

12K views 234 replies 64 participants last post by  4949shooter 
#1 ·
I remember a few years ago in West Lebanon, NH on my club's pistol range Mas Ayoob was holding a shooting class for LEOs. The targets were B27s at 25 feet. The bullet holes were all over the paper, like buckshot patterns at 50 feet. And these were 30 cops who paid a hefty sum to train with Mr. Ayoob. This was in rural NH. I wonder what it is like nationwide? Are cops better shots in FL? Or CA?
 
#76 ·
All I can say is that the local cops borrow our gun club range for their qualifications, and they always like to reserve the whole place, close it down, and shoot all by themselves so nobody can watch them. I don't know why they don't want us to see them shoot....... We also have action pistol competitions every month, and some guys in the club who are pretty darn good, but the cops never show up to compete with us. They just shut us down twice a year to shoot in secret with the curtains pulled, so to speak.

I hope it's not embarrassment keeping them away from club shooting. But on the other hand, if they don't get enough practice because they can't afford it or the department wont spend the money, that bums me out pretty badly.

Maybe there should be a charity that donates ammo or gift cards for ammo purchases to cops - with the expectation of course, that he'll go to the range and try to get some useful practice. As long as I know I'm not giving free ammo to some snot who'll sell it to his friends, I'd donate money regularly to buy practice ammo for cops. Our society should be buying them more of it for them out of the tax pool anyway.
There have been many occasions over the years where I have had random strangers approach and offer their unsolicited opinion of how I can do my job better.

I remember working a vehicle checkpoint at the UN in 98 or 99 along with NYPD and DOD K9 and EOD techs. It seemed that every passing pedestrian knew our jobs better than we did.

I am sure that the department closing your range is doing so for liability purposes, but Ill bet eliminating the distraction of hearing the unsolicited opinion of all the experts who would be watching is a close second.
 
#77 ·
There are more probable reasons for the exclusion of non-police attendees over embarrassment.

First and foremost is liability. If a civilian on the line gets hit by a ricochet or injured in any other way the city is open to a lawsuit. We have enough liability exposure conducting firearms training with our own people without adding outsiders to the mix.

Second, there's OPSEC. Firearms training is more than just shooting paper targets. New tactics are introduced to enhance officer survival. Current threat trends which have been analyzed are discussed. All of this information is vital to keeping coppers alive, and none of it needs to be disbursed to an unknown audience which might include perps.
The indoor range i use to go to did the same thing. If LEOs were training the glass view into the range and doors were covered up. Didnt bother me as i was glad to see them training and the material being presented was none of my business.
 
#80 ·
How competent were those civilian shooters on:

-search and seizure laws and court decisions
-standardized field sobriety examination
-interview and interrogation
-physical evidence identification and collection
-emergency vehicle operation
-interpersonal communication
-report writing
-court room testimony
-etc

?


-cpr / first aid
-phlebotomy
-drug identification
-personal safety tactics
-maintaining physical fitness
-search warrant writing
 
#93 ·


-cpr / first aid
-phlebotomy
-drug identification
-personal safety tactics
-maintaining physical fitness
-search warrant writing
Don't forget:

Sexual Harassment
Cultural Diversity
Verbal Judo
 
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#84 ·
Negative Joker. We are not talking about the evidence room, nor hunting with your 870 - you seem to keep trying to get off topic here. The OP talked about shooting and how it seems LE isn't very good at it. If an agency has to hides it's tactics on an indoor square range, it doesn't have any tactics, they are working on the basics - that's what you do on a square range. And if they were really good at it, the curtains would surely be open - guaranteed. Agencies do not do clandestine HRT indoors with a backstop on one wall.
 
#87 ·
A misplaced fountain of rage.
 
#92 ·
As humans we are full of glory, and full of fault, all of us.

As such I can't help at times but have this song run through my mind (without judgement), on the human condition:

 
#94 ·
Allow me a correction:

-gerbil voodoo
 
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#99 ·
IMHO,
Apples to Apples...average LE is better than average Civilian, since they spent time in an academy, sometimes for two weeks of firearms training, have already qualified and do so at least once a year. Average civilian does not have that experience nor do they practice and most can't shoot for beans.

But take an average LE and put him up against a practiced civilian shooter. No comparison. Simply put the practiced civilian spends more time practicing which makes them a better shot.

According to OP, LEs shooting at static targets and did not fair very well. No excuse. This was not an actual shooting, just a range event. In my experience, most LEs spend too little time on the range for them to be "really" good range shooters.

How they do in an actual shooting, now that is another topic, Apples to Oranges.
 
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#101 ·
This is just asked out of general curiosity: How much time does the average police academy spend on firearms training? And afterward, LEO agencies on additional training? Just going out to the range and shooting at paper might improve marksmanship, but it really isn't the same thing as training and instruction in use of deadly force.
Mine incorporated firearms training every day for the full ten weeks for two hours a day. I am not currently employed in the field and can't testify as to local in-service requirements.

Mountain10mm said:
That sums it up well. My respect for cops just skyrocketed.
Uh, let's see, ten percent of nothing... let me do the math here. Nothing and nothing... carry the nothing...
 
#105 ·
Name calling???? Wow your professionalism and ability to handle stressful situations is overly apparent.

I will grant you undercover agents is a legitimate reason.
I am but a mirror Champ!
 
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#104 ·
Well, we've moved to kettle corn status. Who wants a bowl? If this keeps up, I may have to break out the caramel.
 
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#115 ·
I can't speak personally for every other officer out there, but if you were not or are not a "Gun Guy" as someone has stated in an earlier post, you better darn well become one. You need to be on the range every chance you get and put yourself in different situations including off hand shooting, shooting and racking with only one hand, and more...you get the idea, the also need to work on high stress moving targets, not stationary paper targets. I don't of any bad guy who is going to pose for you and allow you to take your shots while aiming precisely. When the adrenalin kicks in, both eyes are wide open and you better know how to concentrate on that front sight picture and take you best shot, while finding cover or concealment. I do know that no matter what sport or job you do, repitition is your best friend. I would rather to have to think about it in a life or death situation, but rely on muscle memory gained from shooting thousands of rounds in different scenarios.
 
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#116 ·
I was lucky enough to work for a federal agency with a decent training budget. We shot often, both on square ranges and on tactical courses. We used Simunitions and did a great deal of force-on-force exercises. We qualified with all weapons four times a year and did running quals and fitness evaluations twice a year. When we had time, we invited Guard, Reserve, and local LEOs to train at our range and we fielded tactical teams to compete in national and international competitions. All of our agents were beyond competent...not only with firearms, but with the entire operator's toolbox.

It wasn't always this way and it wasn't just money that fixed the problem. It took enlightenment and the development of trust relationships at every level of management and operations before positive change began to develop. This is not an easy thing to undertake. Hell, most bureaucrats wouldn't even understand what I'm talking about! It's the reason that there are both successful and unsuccessful enterprises in all professions. Some people get it and some people don't...
 
#118 ·
I once got verbally counseled for bringing a non-cop on the contract range we were using for a demonstration. Had some souls complaining that the course of fire at 25 yards was too difficult. I was at wit's end so I stuck my head outside and spoke to "John."

He ran it clean, under time and without drama.

I turned to the group and said, "If he can do it, you should be doing as well." Lordy, did that burn a couple of folks who complained to the brass. But it was eye opening and effective. I never told them that he shot IDPA on a regular basis, however. Former military too. Good guy making too much as an engineer to be a cop and admitted that he did not have the patience to deal with the idiots we did with control. :)
 
#119 ·
We used to shoot 4 times a year then in went down to twice a year once for the quill cycle and the. Tactical shoot and move stuff. The troops loved it and always wanted more. Quill was mandated by the. Maryland police training commission. Tablet won't take qualification abrivation. Now as a retired person I only have to shoot once a year. I shoot on my own ccause can get into ft made.
 
#121 ·
Law Enforcement isn't a spectator sport.
 
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