It seems everyone is proclaiming that the new generation of 9mm 147gr. loadings are the best 9mm loads ever. I notice that Remington GoldenSaber, Winchester PDX, Federal HST etc. are all in 147gr loadings.
I know you can get them in different weights, but these seem to be the ones everyone wants today.
I remember when that was not true. I like the 124gr+P Remington GS and I keep them in my Glock 19 as my carry load. They even feed in my old Browning Hi Powers that wont feed other brands of hollow point ammo.
Im looking to get some newer loads for the 9mm guns I own and the 147gr seems the way to go these days.
I really dislike 147s and it is because I personally observed them have problems in pistols like the Sig 226 and 228, Smith 3rd gens and Glocks back in the early 90's. My 5906 Hated them too. The issue load was the Winchester 9mm subsonic 147 JHP. A few of us actually put our money together and ordered a case of Federal 124 Hydrashok. We were allowed to buy our own if we didnt want the Winchester. Some guys still carried the 115 grain Silvertip. At the Time, the most respected load was the Federal 9BP. My brother carried that load in Border Patrol, but I wanted the 124 hydrashok. I realize it was about 20 years ago, but I just cannot trust them again. I know they have improved, but still leery. I always carried 124, but right now I am carrying 115 Gold Dots. I feel confident with that load. I do have boxes of 147 Gold Dots in the locker, but they will probably just sit there forever. A friend gave me few winchester 147 white box JHPs which I do use for the Ranch.
the winchester 127gr +p+ ranger t, speer gold dot 124gr +p, corbon 115gr+p and federal 9bple 115gr +p+ have been working exceptionally well in the real world for over two decades; 30 years+ in the federal example. The 147gr are significantly better than they were in the late 80's-early 1990s, but the mid-weight 9mm's at +p or +p+ velocity still do the trick. Never really saw the need for a 147gr 9mm. If you want something slow, get a .45 or a .40 with 180grs. 9mm was designed with velocity in mind to make it work, and it still works with fps. Just like a .45 works because its big, fat, heavy, and doesn't need to move fast to work.
Originally Posted by awesomo 4000
the winchester 127gr +p+ ranger t, speer gold dot 124gr +p, corbon 115gr+p and federal 9bple 115gr +p+ have been working exceptionally well in the real world for over two decades; 30 years+ in the federal example. The 147gr are significantly better than they were in the late 80's-early 1990s, but the mid-weight 9mm's at +p or +p+ velocity still do the trick. Never really saw the need for a 147gr 9mm. If you want something slow, get a .45 or a .40 with 180grs. 9mm was designed with velocity in mind to make it work, and it still works with fps. Just like a .45 works because its big, fat, heavy, and doesn't need to move fast to work.
Why? A bullet is a bullet. It's an inanimate object. If big, fat, heavy and slow works for .40 and .45 caliber, why won't it work for 9mm? You say 9mm was "designed" with velocity in mind. Don't you think the 147 gr HST hollow point has been "designed" to work within a slower velocity window? Didn't the old 9mm JHP have to go fast to expand before some of the newer bullet technology?
Last December I participated in a balistics workshop conducted by Federal/Speer reps, at the Delaware County Sheriffs Department (Muncie Indiana).
The rep fired a 165 Gr Federal .40 HST round into gelatin covered by 4 layers of denim, and then a 147 Gr Federal 9mm HST round into the gelatin right along side it.
Penetration was average 14 inches, both expanded as advertized, both retained their 165/147 gr weights respectivly. Now "Belive it or Don't" those two rounds extracted from the medium, cleaned up, sitting side by side, base down. At first glance, you couldn't tell the two apart. The difference in the extended, expanded mushroomed bullet was 18 grains (165-147). HMMMMMMMM Gee Mr. Obvious, they look and act about the same, do't you think?!?
147gr was developed for use in suppressed MP5s. It was then decided it was to solve the 9mm's penetration "problem" following the 1986 Miami shootout. It penetrated more because it wouldn't expand and you basically had a 147gr FMJ. A 147gr 9mm is pretty much a hi-capacity .38 Special. A hot .38 Special is a .357 Magnum. Given the choice between the two, you'd normally choose the latter.
The newer designs obviously work and expand, I just feel it's more perception than reality; the consistent top performers were/still are the middle weights with velocity. The .357SIG works well for the same reason, and why there aren't a ton of 147gr loads for it. Hornaday makes one at 1250fps, but virtually every agency that uses it is with the 125gr offerings.
It's whatever you feel comfortable with. With an autoloader, I'd want a little extra oomph from +P anyway in case it's gummed up or caked with dirt, mud, or blood. Given the choice between a 180gr .40 or 230gr .45 going 900fps versus a .355 147gr going 900fps, just not sure what a slow 9mm offers. But again, it's whatever you and your gun work best with and have faith in....which is probably why there's 10 different calibers in 20 different weights!:supergrin:
I do not want to get into argument on heavy-slow vs. light-fast, but FBI is still recommending the 147gr. The times I carry the 9mm, it is either 9BPLE 115gr +p+ at 1,337fps, or Underwood 124gr GD +p+ at about 1,310. I also carry Underwood 115gr GD +p+ in my 3" Kahr PM9 to assure expansion. I guess that tells you I am on the light-fast side of the argument as long as the round will penetrate 12".
It seems everyone is proclaiming that the new generation of 9mm 147gr. loadings are the best 9mm loads ever. I notice that Remington GoldenSaber, Winchester PDX, Federal HST etc. are all in 147gr loadings.
I know you can get them in different weights, but these seem to be the ones everyone wants today.
I remember when that was not true. I like the 124gr+P Remington GS and I keep them in my Glock 19 as my carry load. They even feed in my old Browning Hi Powers that wont feed other brands of hollow point ammo.
Im looking to get some newer loads for the 9mm guns I own and the 147gr seems the way to go these days.
I've got a bunch of 124 grain standard pressure HST (not a believer in +p). I'd love to run 147s out of my carbine, but can't find them in standard pressure at reasonable prices. So I just stick with the 124s.
I have to ask, why are you not a believer in +p? If you believe, as Dr. Roberts, that energy is not important, than I guess the 147gr would be a great round. I believe whatever you shoot should have at least 400FPE at the muzzle. That was the finding of the Boarder Patrol. When they used 9mm they used 9BPLE, which is just over 400FPE in G17's and they do not believe they had any issues with stopping, when they went with the 40, they chose a full power 155gr, which had some recoil issues, but not too many small women sign up for the Boarder Patrol.
Federal’s Premium Law Enforcement Ammunition line-up currently includes four different 9mm Luger loads that utilize 0.355” versions of their hollow-point HST bullet. As the title of this article states, the standard pressure 147grain load (P9HST2) will be the focus of this article.
All versions of the 9mm Luger HST ammunition are loaded in nickel-plated, brass cases. The case-head for the P9HST2 is stamped “F C 9MM LUGER”. This version is loaded to a cartridge nominal OAL of 1.125”. The primers are sealed, but are not crimped in place. The case mouths are also sealed. The round is charged with a “flake” powder.
(The individual squares in the red grid below measure one-tenth of an inch.)
The 147 grain HST projectile has a nominal length of 0.680”. The bullet has a deep cannelure and six skives in the copper jakcet. The skives on the 9mm HST projectiles are the longest of any of the 9mm Luger law enforcement loads that I’ve evaluated to date.
The 9mm HST projectiles have a very unique construction, in that the lead-core directly beneath the skives has a crown-shaped cut-out.
Federal’s literature claims that the 9mm Luger 147 grain HST load has a muzzle velocity of 1000 FPS. When chronographed from my Gen 2 Glock 19 (with the factory original barrel) over an Oehler 35P chronograph, the P9HST2 load had a muzzle velocity of 1018 FPS with a standard deviation of 11 FPS!
Dr. GK Roberts has stated that the 9mm 147 grain HST rounds “are among the finest 9 mm duty loads currently available.” Terminal ballistic testing in 10% ordnance gelatin conducted by the good doctor produced the following results . . .
I evaluated the accuracy of the P9HST2 load from a distance of 25 yards using two different platforms; my Gen 2 Glock 19 and a Colt 6450 with a free-floated Noveske barrel.
When using hand-loads topped with the Hornady 125 grain HAP bullet, my Noveske barreled Colt 6450 has turned in 10-shot groups at 25 yards that have extreme spreads of less than a half-inch.
A 10-shot group of the P9HST2 ammunition fired from the Noveske barreled 6450 at 25 yards had an extreme spread of 0.83”.
Firing from the bench at a distance of 25 yards, my Gen 2 Glock 19 (with the factory original barrel) produced a 10-shot group with an extreme spread of 2.05”.
It seems everyone is proclaiming that the new generation of 9mm 147gr. loadings are the best 9mm loads ever. I notice that Remington GoldenSaber, Winchester PDX, Federal HST etc. are all in 147gr loadings.
I know you can get them in different weights, but these seem to be the ones everyone wants today.
I remember when that was not true. I like the 124gr+P Remington GS and I keep them in my Glock 19 as my carry load. They even feed in my old Browning Hi Powers that wont feed other brands of hollow point ammo.
Im looking to get some newer loads for the 9mm guns I own and the 147gr seems the way to go these days.
Not to heavy not to lite but just right, the mid weight 124 gr is the best overall weight for the 9mm, it offers good penetration and speed along with proven street cred. If you want to go heavy and slow best to stick with the larger calibers .40/10 or .45, their size makes up for the lack of speed. Overall the .38 family of calibers is best served with a good bit of velocity, the 115gr not to be overlooked has proven to be a very effective fight stopper!
It seems everyone is proclaiming that the new generation of 9mm 147gr. loadings are the best 9mm loads ever. I notice that Remington GoldenSaber, Winchester PDX, Federal HST etc. are all in 147gr loadings.
I know you can get them in different weights, but these seem to be the ones everyone wants today.
I remember when that was not true. I like the 124gr+P Remington GS and I keep them in my Glock 19 as my carry load. They even feed in my old Browning Hi Powers that wont feed other brands of hollow point ammo.
Im looking to get some newer loads for the 9mm guns I own and the 147gr seems the way to go these days.
Just an additional thought here - Most of the comments I am reading here seem to be coming from the standpoint that the ammunition manufacturers are producing these new rounds because of some real interest in "public safety" or some such thing. Don't get me wrong here - discussing the +'s & -'s of the 147g rounds are certainly a good conversation. but another side of this conversation is that money is at the heart of the rise of the 147g round.
The real down & dirty is that people (that includes LE) will buy it and it will make the Manufactures more money, and many of us play "follow the leader" in purchasing guns & ammo.
As far as this side of this conversation goes... Alwaysshootin hit the nail right on the head!
Alwaysshootin - "Simply, an attempt, to make the (9), into something it's not! Have you ever asked yourself, why did all the police agencies switch from the .357 magnum, to the 9, and then go with the .40 almost in unison, faster, than they switched away from a 6 shot revolver? Think about it."
And, yet, they didn't switch from .38 Special to .45 ACP. They switched to 9mm first, then to .40 S&W, or straight to .40. There was never a full blown switch to .45 ACP. They wanted .40 S&W to be a .45 ACP in 9mm's clothing. I like the round. It serves a purpose. Now many are switching back to 9mm. I have no problem with that move, either. A 9mm must expand to be a .40, and a .40 must expand to be a .45. Any round must penetrate enough to reach the vital areas, from any angle. Bullet diameter, including expansion, merely gives you a slight additional margin of error in shot placement, if penetration is adequate. I'll carry any of the major calibers, and do.
And, yet, they didn't switch from .38 Special to .45 ACP. They switched to 9mm first, then to .40 S&W, or straight to .40. There was never a full blown switch to .45 ACP. They wanted .40 S&W to be a .45 ACP in 9mm's clothing. I like the round. It serves a purpose. Now many are switching back to 9mm. I have no problem with that move, either. A 9mm must expand to be a .40, and a .40 must expand to be a .45. Any round must penetrate enough to reach the vital areas, from any angle. Bullet diameter, including expansion, merely gives you a slight additional margin of error in shot placement, if penetration is adequate. I'll carry any of the major calibers, and do.
They (LE) went from 38 special to 357 magnum... and so on.
Although I am not a "heavy for caliber" person, I do agree with your train of thought here. For my CCW - ammo, I have chosen to stick with the 9mm & 124g rounds, I can control them better than the rest (115g or 147g). Never cared much for any of the "super" rounds or the .40, 357 sig, or the .45 GAP rounds.
Alwaysshootin - "Simply, an attempt, to make the (9), into something it's not! Have you ever asked yourself, why did all the police agencies switch from the .357 magnum, to the 9, and then go with the .40 almost in unison, faster, than they switched away from a 6 shot revolver? Think about it."
Isn't switching from .357 magnum to 9 switching from the 6 shot revolver to the semi auto?
But a big accelerant (is that a word?) of the switch to .40, from my understanding, is companies like Glock offering steep STEEP discounts on the pistols to LEA's.
Just an additional thought here - Most of the comments I am reading here seem to be coming from the standpoint that the ammunition manufacturers are producing these new rounds because of some real interest in "public safety" or some such thing. Don't get me wrong here - discussing the +'s & -'s of the 147g rounds are certainly a good conversation. but another side of this conversation is that money is at the heart of the rise of the 147g round.
The real down & dirty is that people (that includes LE) will buy it and it will make the Manufactures more money, and many of us play "follow the leader" in purchasing guns & ammo.
As far as this side of this conversation goes... Alwaysshootin hit the nail right on the head!
Alwaysshootin - "Simply, an attempt, to make the (9), into something it's not! Have you ever asked yourself, why did all the police agencies switch from the .357 magnum, to the 9, and then go with the .40 almost in unison, faster, than they switched away from a 6 shot revolver? Think about it."
I was thinking the same thing, nothing sells like a new fad, the ammo companies know we are all stocked up on medium and light weight ammo after the big shortage and are sitting on it. So now the 147gr is the new big deal that you need to rush out and buy because you just can't get into a shootout without it! No thanks slow and heavy never impressed me.
You know, the FBI got behind 147gr awhile before the panic, and many PD's have been using it for awhile too (my local PD has been on RA9T, which is 147gr Ranger T, for years). It's not just a marketing/panic thing lol
Without studying and quantifying actual shootings (like Marshall & Sanow attempted to do) all we have is pretty pictures. To claim a bullet designed to mushroom in a body is the same, performance-wise, as a round nosed projectile that is not designed to expand, is ludicrous. If not, why not just carry 115 grain full metal jacketed bullets in your 9mm?
The 38 special 158 grain lead semi-wadcutter hollow point plus P or FBI load had/has an excellent reputation. The 147 hollow point 9mm is the proper comparison. If designed properly you get good penetration and expansion.
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