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Old 03-02-2014, 14:02   #1
PEC-Memphis
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Home defense shotgun: Myths and Reality

http://dailycaller.com/2013/10/14/ho...s-and-reality/

A pretty decent article.
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Old 03-02-2014, 17:05   #2
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Good article. This is what I need to practice, practice, practice...

Keeping your head in the fight is one of the hardest-taught skills. Many times a shooter wants to look down at the gun. Bring the shotgun up and load without looking.


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Old 03-02-2014, 17:45   #3
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Surprisingly well written.
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Old 03-07-2014, 17:57   #4
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I do have to disagree with him regarding the choices of pumps he discusses. Obviously the 870 (and I'm old enough to have owned a Mod 37 Ithaca), but a Winchester mod 1300? Nothing against it, BUT I have NEVER seen one in a cruiser.
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Old 03-07-2014, 18:09   #5
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Originally Posted by ottomatic View Post
I do have to disagree with him regarding the choices of pumps he discusses. Obviously the 870 (and I'm old enough to have owned a Mod 37 Ithaca), but a Winchester mod 1300? Nothing against it, BUT I have NEVER seen one in a cruiser.
I was issued a 1200 20" 8 shot once, before the 1300 came out.
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Old 03-08-2014, 07:25   #6
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Good read. I agree with him.

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Old 03-08-2014, 17:01   #7
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Originally Posted by ottomatic View Post
I do have to disagree with him regarding the choices of pumps he discusses. Obviously the 870 (and I'm old enough to have owned a Mod 37 Ithaca), but a Winchester mod 1300? Nothing against it, BUT I have NEVER seen one in a cruiser.
Mid to late 90s I carried/my department issued me a 1300 Defender for duty use from time to time. They also issued Ithaca 87s and Remington 870s.....for what it's worth.

It looked just like this:

Tactical Shotguns
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Old 03-11-2014, 19:21   #8
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Frankly, I get kind of tired of reading what some "expert" says about myths and shotguns. Shotguns are ubiquitous in our society and people have been using them to defend themselves since they were invented.

You don't have to be some high speed low drag operator to use one. It is not rocket science or a super tactical maneuver to pick a shotgun up and load/reload it, aim and shoot it. You only need two hands and half a brain.
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Old 03-11-2014, 20:28   #9
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Frankly, I get kind of tired of reading what some "expert" says about myths and shotguns. Shotguns are ubiquitous in our society and people have been using them to defend themselves since they were invented.

You don't have to be some high speed low drag operator to use one. It is not rocket science or a super tactical maneuver to pick a shotgun up and load/reload it, aim and shoot it. You only need two hands and half a brain.
So what did you disagree with (not that I agree with everything in the article)?

So what he states as a "myth" you've never heard someone say? Or do you think the stated "myth" is really a truth?

Is someone really wasting their time and money taking a shotgun defense course? People are born instinctive shotgun skills?

I noticed that you have a "Liberty Seed" avatar. I've been shooting rifles for over 45 years. I learned a lot from the Appleseed Marksmanship Clinic, it made me a better rifle shooter. (Shot a 221 on my first AQT).
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Old 03-12-2014, 12:26   #10
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I saw some good points but yes as mentioned, over dramatized. Anymore these professionals would have me believe I am unable to shift a manual transmission, turn a screw, or tie a trashbag without having taken a special course or having regularly participated in some timed competition. Good info but lets not get carried away.

Yes you need to aim and racking a pump may or may not cause spontaneous underwear soiling. Im sure we could all benefit from some unloaded practice drills, including myself

He does bring a good point about stock length. My 870 has too much lop and makes it cumbersome to shoulder. Might look at what magpul is offering

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Old 03-12-2014, 12:55   #11
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Originally Posted by Ford302Glock21 View Post
......

He does bring a good point about stock length. My 870 has too much lop and makes it cumbersome to shoulder. Might look at what magpul is offering

Just installed MagPul's furniture on an old 870. LOP is 12.5" without any of the spacers installed.

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Old 03-13-2014, 06:30   #12
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Hard to take a guy serious when he states he uses "Zombie Max Ammo". However there where some good points for a novice to read but these are common known facts in my world so there was nothing of interest in his article for me but it would give someone new to the world of the HD shotgun a good starting point which is the intent of the article so it is a good read for that.

He got so much right but where he went very wrong was in his statements about having to aim a shotgun. Here is what I would tell a novice. If you believe that you have time to shoulder and aim at a threat that is rushing you from 15 feet away you are going to be very unhappy with the result. Point shooting at close quarters is going to be the fastest way to end a threat and should be a large part of your practice. There is also no need to shoulder the weapon at these distances as having the stock under the arm about rib cage level shortens the weapon, gives you control and allows you to align the weapon and fire. Practice this starting at 10 feet and work back to the furthest distance you would be at inside your home. If it works for you then go with it. If not, then go to plan B.

But hey, just my opinion and you know what they say about opinions.
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Old 03-13-2014, 08:33   #13
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That's still using body index to aim, as opposed to wildly spraying lead from the hip...

:D
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Old 03-13-2014, 10:46   #14
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[QUOTE=MrMurphy;21079727]That's still using body index to aim, as opposed to wildly spraying lead from the hip...

Had not heard that term before but it describes it well. I just hope people realize how fast a perp can close on you and how little time there is to respond.
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Old 03-13-2014, 11:09   #15
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There are some excellent vids on youtube showing just how fast a perp can close a distance. I don't have the links but IIRC, it was an agency or similar showing closing the gap in relation to drawing your weapon in response to the approaching threat.

Think of a perp coming at you like a freight train. It looks slow, far away and you tell yourself you can easily mind the gap. And then suddenly it's on you like a bad bowl of kimchi and you're like, "WTF?"

Distance is time.
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Old 03-13-2014, 11:32   #16
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Slow reloading speed and limited capacity are the main reasons why I do not solely rely on my shotgun for home defense. My plan involves emptying my shotgun first, then switching to a handgun if necessary. I can reload the handgun much more efficiently than anyone can reload a tube-fed shotgun. My shotgun, along with my G19 and a spare magazine, gives me seven rounds of buckshot and 31 rounds of 9mm. If that isn't enough to solve my immediate problems, then I don't need more guns, I need more people.
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Old 03-13-2014, 11:58   #17
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That's still using body index to aim, as opposed to wildly spraying lead from the hip...:D
Yes. Some people are surprised how much more effectively they can "point shoot" a shotgun by having their forearm aligned with the bore axis of the shotgun (where the stock is just under the arm pit).

I've seen several people completely miss an IDPA/USPSA target (at 5-7 yards) with multiple shots from a shotgun when they are "shooting from the hip". Although some might have had some nasty lower leg/foot wounds.
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Old 03-13-2014, 20:44   #18
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Not much different than training to draw from the holster and indexing your gun hand on your rib cage as you draw. If necessary you can fire with the gun more or less under your armpit, aiming with your body, and successfully keep rounds on target out to about five yards (more like three to be safe) if you're mid-draw and a guy rushes you and you have to fend him off with the other hand. I've done so successfully in training, as well as shooting from center chest when both hands are meeting up on the gun.

Definitely not optimal but it'll get some rounds on the target long enough to create distance and 'do it right'. With a shotgun, shooting braced against the body isn't as accurate as it could be, but far better than the Hollywood "hold it at the waist loosely and fire the whole magazine" where pellets are going who knows where. If you need to fire one round from there, muzzle strike the target, step back and fire (correctly aimed) then hey.....do what needs to be done.
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Old 03-14-2014, 06:34   #19
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We can quibble about some minor details….but overall I liked it.

- I was surprised the Mossberg 500 didn't make mention in pump world. I was surprised the 930 did.
- There is rifle aiming, then there is shotgun aiming, then there is shotgun pointing, then there is point shooting. I get what he is talking about. The tennis ball point was excellent.
- Good rack discussion. That said, most breakins are not crazed meth dealers, the sound can scare the bejeebbers out of a BG. In a quiet house at night you hear it across the home. And no, you should NOT depend on it!!!!

His training/amount of ammo point seems wrong, or at least WAY over the top. I think that a five round SG is likely three rounds more than anyone ever uses on a breaking, and that shot for shot, I get better performance out of someone with buck and an SG than anything! But again, I see his point. Train, train, train…

We can date a point here or there, but all in all, solid info.
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Old 03-16-2014, 22:42   #20
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I still have my Winchester 1300, love it. I have in the past and would now trust my life with it.

Although my dogs are my 1st line of defense the Winchester could be brought into action... if there is anything left!

I have to agree with others that the article is well written especially his point that the shotgun is NOT a magic gun. Like any firearm it takes time and practice to become proficient with it.

Be safe out there
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Old 03-17-2014, 12:08   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steve1988 View Post
Slow reloading speed and limited capacity are the main reasons why I do not solely rely on my shotgun for home defense. My plan involves emptying my shotgun first, then switching to a handgun if necessary. I can reload the handgun much more efficiently than anyone can reload a tube-fed shotgun. My shotgun, along with my G19 and a spare magazine, gives me seven rounds of buckshot and 31 rounds of 9mm. If that isn't enough to solve my immediate problems, then I don't need more guns, I need more people.
I agree with your strategy, but for some reason, that last sentence really hit my funny-bone. Tactical Shotguns

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Old 03-19-2014, 15:13   #22
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I have a hard time taking anyone seriously who only has 1000 rounds through his 3Gun shotgun, and a JM930 at that. Most of it was agreeable though. I used to agree "more" with some of the points, but as I have learned, I have changed my mind. Regardless, there is no one perfect anything that is man made.

Quote:
Slow reloading speed and limited capacity are the main reasons why I do not solely rely on my shotgun for home defense. I can reload the handgun much more efficiently than anyone can reload a tube-fed shotgun.
I challenged 2 IDPA shooters to a friendly shoot-off the other day, which some of you might find interesting. 18 hits on a 10" plate at 10 yards. I started with 10 in my VersaMax (9+1). I shot 10, loaded 10 and finished with 2 rounds in the gun and 9.34 seconds showing on the timer. The second shooter, with a 1911 Les Baer, fired 24 rounds, reloaded twice and had 17.18 seconds on the timer. The third shooter, with a Glock 19 fired 25 rounds, reloaded once and had 13.89 on the timer.
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Old 03-19-2014, 20:18   #23
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I challenged 2 IDPA shooters to a friendly shoot-off the other day, which some of you might find interesting. 18 hits on a 10" plate at 10 yards. I started with 10 in my VersaMax (9+1). I shot 10, loaded 10 and finished with 2 rounds in the gun and 9.34 seconds showing on the timer. The second shooter, with a 1911 Les Baer, fired 24 rounds, reloaded twice and had 17.18 seconds on the timer. The third shooter, with a Glock 19 fired 25 rounds, reloaded once and had 13.89 on the timer.
Fair enough, but wouldn't you be even faster if you switched to a pistol (assuming a single point sling on the long gun)? Or are you saying that you can reload faster than you can draw? If so, color me impressed.
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Old 03-19-2014, 20:22   #24
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I will admit I ran the drill with my M&P and beat my shotgun time.
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Old 03-20-2014, 08:39   #25
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The multiple facets of this discussion intrigued me, and I still need some live fire before the first major, so I got up early and hit the range. I warmed up by shooting a Bill Drill with my M&P and the VersaMax 3 times each switching off, then I shot this: I set up a simple mover, a metric USPSA target on a zip line, starts behind a barrel, stops behind a barrel, 7 yards away and traversing a 7 yard window. Starting facing uprange, when my foot moved to turn downrange, the rope around my ankle pulled a pin to release the target.

FNH P12 with low recoil slugs, 5 shots with 4As, 1C.
Remington 11-87P with low recoil slugs, 6 shots with 2As, 2Cs, 1D, 1M.
Remington VersaMax with low recoil slugs, 8 shots with 4As, 3cs, 1D.
S&W M&P9Pro with Hornady Critical Duty, 9 shots with 6As, 3Cs.
G22 with Hornady Critical Duty, 10 shots with 5As, 3Cs, 2M.
Sig C3 (4" 1911 .45) with Hornady Critical Duty, 9 shots with 4As, 3Cs, 2Ds.

Take it for what it is, just a quick comparison drill, and it was 28F at the range.
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