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Old 07-13-2008, 17:21   #1
Prometheus77
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About time: Automatic knives legal in Indiana as of 7-1-2008

http://www.in.gov/legislative/bills/.../SB0085.1.html

Long over due.
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Old 07-13-2008, 22:50   #2
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This bill is DEAD.
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Old 07-14-2008, 08:34   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rkba_net View Post
This bill is DEAD.

It reads:
Effective: July 1, 2008
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Old 07-14-2008, 20:51   #4
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There are a lot of Senate bills that never become law. I wouldn't trust this as fact because it showed up the internet one day.

in.gov should tell you if it was signed into law but I'm too lazy to go look.
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Old 07-15-2008, 05:14   #5
rkba_net
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prometheus77 View Post

It reads:
Effective: July 1, 2008
The bill was not passed by the cutoff date... it is dead... IF the bill was passed into law that would have been the effective date...
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Old 08-13-2008, 12:44   #6
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Anyone know if LEOs / Federal LEOs are exempt from this prohibition?

-J-
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Old 08-13-2008, 21:11   #7
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Originally Posted by Indy_Guy_77 View Post
Anyone know if LEOs / Federal LEOs are exempt from this prohibition?

-J-
State, County and City LEOs are not exempt in Indiana. I don't know if Fed's have any special exemptions under federal law. That said, under Indiana state law they aren't exempt either.
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Old 08-15-2008, 21:12   #8
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It looks like this is referring only to ballistic (blade-launching) knives.

There are several guys in my fire dept that keep automatic knives in their turn out gear. We haven't heard of any objections to them yet.
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Old 08-16-2008, 00:21   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eprn View Post
It looks like this is referring only to ballistic (blade-launching) knives.

There are several guys in my fire dept that keep automatic knives in their turn out gear. We haven't heard of any objections to them yet.
This is incorrect... here is the statute...

IC 35-47-5-2
Knife with blade that opens automatically or may be propelled
Sec. 2. It is a Class B misdemeanor for a person to manufacture, possess, display, offer, sell, lend, give away, or purchase any knife with a blade that:
(1) opens automatically; or
(2) may be propelled;
by hand pressure applied to a button, device containing gas, spring, or other device in the handle of the knife.
As added by P.L.311-1983, SEC.32. Amended by P.L.70-2000, SEC.2.


THERE IS NO EXEMPTION FOR LEO'S OR FIREFIGHTERS...
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Old 08-16-2008, 11:05   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rkba_net View Post
This is incorrect... here is the statute...

IC 35-47-5-2
Knife with blade that opens automatically or may be propelled
Sec. 2. It is a Class B misdemeanor for a person to manufacture, possess, display, offer, sell, lend, give away, or purchase any knife with a blade that:
(1) opens automatically; or
(2) may be propelled;
by hand pressure applied to a button, device containing gas, spring, or other device in the handle of the knife.
As added by P.L.311-1983, SEC.32. Amended by P.L.70-2000, SEC.2.


THERE IS NO EXEMPTION FOR LEO'S OR FIREFIGHTERS...
Correct. Another interesting note is that 'assisted opening' knives that are sold everywhere from walmart to cabelas are also illegal in Indiana.

Funny to note the dealer selling those knives at the last gun show was passing off that bill as law. I'll be looking for him again at the next show in mid september...
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Old 08-16-2008, 20:51   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prometheus77 View Post
Correct. Another interesting note is that 'assisted opening' knives that are sold everywhere from walmart to cabelas are also illegal in Indiana.

Funny to note the dealer selling those knives at the last gun show was passing off that bill as law. I'll be looking for him again at the next show in mid september...
IMHO assisted opening knives are quite legal in Indiana... as they do NOT open automatically... I have NEVER seen a opinion by the state AG on this...
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Old 08-16-2008, 23:59   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rkba_net View Post
IMHO assisted opening knives are quite legal in Indiana... as they do NOT open automatically... I have NEVER seen a opinion by the state AG on this...
You are correct about there not being an opinion by the st AG, but I was speaking to a bunch of lawyers and asst. DA's a couple years back (all 2a friendly) and they said techinically they were illegal. Doubted anyone would ever be charged, but illegal by 'letter of the law'. I'd have to agree:
Quote:
IC 35-47-5-2
Knife with blade that opens automatically or may be propelled
Sec. 2. It is a Class B misdemeanor for a person to manufacture, possess, display, offer, sell, lend, give away, or purchase any knife with a blade that:
(1) opens automatically; or
(2) may be propelled;
by hand pressure applied to a button, device containing gas, spring, or other device in the handle of the knife.
As added by P.L.311-1983, SEC.32. Amended by P.L.70-2000, SEC.2.
They also pointed out that because of the ambiguity of the last portion "or other device in the handle of the knife." that assisted openers definitely falls under that as well. Again I have to agree. Sucks but thats how it's worded.

It is long over due to change this law and make automatic and asst. openers legal.
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Last edited by Prometheus77; 08-17-2008 at 00:02..
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Old 08-18-2008, 05:27   #13
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You aren't operating a lever or button, you're opening the blade till a certain point, where a spring mechanism assists in it opening. Hence it being a loop hole around the law.

Propelled means a blade shot out of a knifes handle like that funny scene in the punisher. Not opened.

There were some police making a big deal about the spring assist knives when they first came out around here (Terre Haute), but backed off when pushed about it (they were telling sporting goods stores they couldn't sell them, the sporting goods stores challenged it in court and won, i guess walmart has deeper pockets than the THPD).
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Old 08-18-2008, 17:07   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skpotamus View Post
You aren't operating a lever or button, you're opening the blade till a certain point, where a spring mechanism assists in it opening. Hence it being a loop hole around the law.
Did you read the code cited? The commas in number two stand for "or" not "and".

Quote:
Propelled means a blade shot out of a knifes handle like that funny scene in the punisher. Not opened.
I'll quote it a third time:
Quote:
IC 35-47-5-2
Knife with blade that opens automatically or may be propelled
Sec. 2. It is a Class B misdemeanor for a person to manufacture, possess, display, offer, sell, lend, give away, or purchase any knife with a blade that:
(1) opens automatically; or
(2) may be propelled;
by
hand pressure applied to a button, device containing gas, spring, or other device in the handle of the knife.
As added by P.L.311-1983, SEC.32. Amended by P.L.70-2000, SEC.2.
Each comma means "or" in this case. Assisted openers fall in this ban under both the spring AND other device language.
Quote:
There were some police making a big deal about the spring assist knives when they first came out around here (Terre Haute), but backed off when pushed about it (they were telling sporting goods stores they couldn't sell them,
Correct
Quote:
the sporting goods stores challenged it in court and won, i guess walmart has deeper pockets than the THPD).
Incorrect. This has never seen the inside of a court room, nor did THPD ever do more than posturing.

This is an issue neither side wants to touch. Pro asst. openers worry they'll be banned if the push for a decision by the AG and it goes to court, anti-asst ppl are worried it'll push the remaining legislators on the fence to repeal the section and pass the bill that was proposed that started this thread.
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Old 08-19-2008, 06:10   #15
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i'm sorry if what I saw first hand isnt' what you heard, but it was what happened nonetheless.

I was working at Walmart at the time of the THPD coming in, in fact I got to call the manager when one of the LEO's wanted to speak to him about them. We were told they were illegal and even pulled them from the counter until upper management got back to us, walmart's legal team said they were not illegal under Indiana law and threatened legal action against the THPD by filing something in the local courts, the THPD backed down and walmart withdrew it's thingamajigger. Why? Because the THPD knew they'd lose becasue those knives aren't illegal. Fast forward 6 years, and the knives are still being sold in Walmarts all over Indiana and the THPD still won't show up to Walmart # 1310 when called (only the county boys will actually show up)

When I started to help teach the Defensive Tactics courses to the Vigo County Sherrifs Dept, I asked again about them, because I didn't want to be hassled for carrying one. They assured me they were legal under Indiana law, even though they didnt' like them. I have also talked to lawyers about them when discussing teaching with my NRA cert's (one of them a law professor as well). They agreed that they were LEGAL under IN law.

Let's take a look at that law which you like to paste oh so much.


(I can paste the law too )
IC 35-47-5-2
Knife with blade that opens automatically or may be propelled
Sec. 2. It is a Class B misdemeanor for a person to manufacture, possess, display, offer, sell, lend, give away, or purchase any knife with a blade that:
(1) opens automatically; or
(2) may be propelled;
by hand pressure applied to a button, device containing gas, spring, or other device in the handle of the knife.
As added by P.L.311-1983, SEC.32. Amended by P.L.70-2000, SEC.2.

Since a spring ASSIST knife does NOT open automatically, 1 does not apply.

#2- propelled, actually means to be shot out, hence the gas quote in the next line. These were called ballistic knives and the blade actually seperated from the handle by means of a compressed spring or a gas piston or gas cartridge, essentially, a single shot bayonet gun. These were banned nationwide in 1986, since the original IN law was written in 1983 it's no leap of the imagination that this was meant for them.

For the sake of argument, the next part, where it states by hand pressure applied to a button, clearly this points towards a switchblade or some form of of projectile, a spring assist knife works by the blade being phsycially opening partway, then the spring kicking in to assist it. Hence the name. No button. This alone, kicks out number 2

No gas in the handle to propel the knife (it doesn't shoot out and there's no pressurized gas).

The part you seem to be hung up on is the spring in the handle. Since you seem to know nothing about how knives are made, let me enlighten you, EVERY knife that has a lock mechanism to hold the blade has some form of spring in the handle. That's how they lock. So either this law was designed to make every folding knife with a lock illegal (highly doubtful), or it applies to switchblades and ballistic knives that open with the push of a button.

Since that whole spring section is tied in with the push button and automatic sections, it tends to point to it NOT specifically outlawing all knives with a spring in the handle, especially since we can buy knives with locks.



I'm done with this thread.
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Old 08-19-2008, 11:17   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skpotamus View Post
i'm sorry if what I saw first hand isnt' what you heard, but it was what happened nonetheless.

I was working at Walmart at the time of the THPD coming in, in fact I got to call the manager when one of the LEO's wanted to speak to him about them.
As a matter of common sense I never trust walmart employees on issues dealing with anything more serious then "where can I find the beef jerky?" issues.

Quote:
threatened legal action against the THPD by filing something in the local courts
Wait a minute, in your last post you said it was "challenged in court and won"

Which is it? I already gave you the answer when I told you it never went to court (or even a filing for that matter).

Quote:
When I started to help teach the Defensive Tactics courses to the Vigo County Sherrifs Dept, I asked again about them, because I didn't want to be hassled for carrying one. They assured me they were legal under Indiana law, even though they didnt' like them.
Working at the walmart sporting goods counter and teaching tactics for the Sheriffs department? Anyway I trust most local LEO's to be fractionally more knowledgable about laws than walmart employees. No help here either.

Quote:
Let's take a look at that law which you like to paste oh so much.

(I can paste the law too )
IC 35-47-5-2
Knife with blade that opens automatically or may be propelled This is a prefatory clause, like the "assault weapons ban" lets go on to read what is DEFINED as an automatic knife not what you assume it means
Sec. 2. It is a Class B misdemeanor for a person to manufacture, possess, display, offer, sell, lend, give away, or purchase any knife with a blade that:
(1) opens automatically; or
(2) may be propelled;
by hand pressure applied to a
button, device containing gas, spring, or other device in the handle of the knife.
As added by P.L.311-1983, SEC.32. Amended by P.L.70-2000, SEC.2.

Since a spring ASSIST knife does NOT open automatically, 1 does not apply.
correct
#2- propelled, actually means to be shot out,One part of the definition, propelled means to 'move' hence the gas quote in the next line. No that is meant to ban gas powered knives that you reference below which is one of many types of knives banned These were called ballistic knives and the blade actually seperated from the handle by means of a compressed spring or a gas piston or gas cartridge, essentially, a single shot bayonet gun. These were banned nationwide in 1986, since the original IN law was written in 1983 it's no leap of the imagination that this was meant for them. correct

For the sake of argument, the next part, where it states by hand pressure applied to a button, clearly this points towards a switchblade or some form of of projectile, a spring assist knife works by the blade being phsycially opening partway, then the spring kicking in to assist it. Hence the name. No button. This alone, kicks out that portion of number 2

No gas in the handle to propel the knife (it doesn't shoot out and there's no pressurized gas). correct

The part you seem to be hung up on is the spring in the handle. Since you seem to know nothing about how knives are made, let me enlighten you, EVERY knife that has a lock mechanism to hold the blade has some form of spring in the handle. That's how they lock. correct So either this law was designed to make every folding knife with a lock illegal (highly doubtful),incorrect because those knives are IN NO WAY propelled by the locking mechanism or it applies to switchblades and ballistic knives that open with the push of a button.

Since that whole spring section is tied in with the push button and automatic sections,incorrect it tends tends? what is that? like beign a little bit pregnant? it is either is or it isn't.to point to it NOT specifically outlawing all knives with a spring in the handle, especially since we can buy knives with locks. because those springs in NO WAY propel the blade

I'm done with this thread.
Cool cause this is getting old, lol
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Old 08-19-2008, 23:16   #17
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IMHO Indiana's law dows NOT apply to AO knives since Indiana's law references "opens automatically; or (2) may be propelled" type knives...

AO's do NOT open automatically since the spring only acts on PART of the opening arc...

The reference to "propelled" is about knives that actually expell the blade, such as the Russian Ballistic knives...
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Old 08-20-2008, 08:27   #18
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Gosh...

If assisted-opening knives are illegal, even "technically, though no one will be charged", then why don't gun shops just sell short-barrelled-shotguns too?

And back to my original posting in the thread... So, when my Fed LEO brother-in-law comes to visit, it's a crime for me to use his automatic Benchmade, but not for me to use my assisted opening Kershaw. Nice.


-J-
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Old 08-21-2008, 19:11   #19
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Gosh...

If assisted-opening knives are illegal, even "technically, though no one will be charged", then why don't gun shops just sell short-barrelled-shotguns too?
For the same reason you see automatic knives for sale at all the gun shows and alot of gun shops and you don't see anyone selling SBR's. Prosecution.

Quote:
And back to my original posting in the thread... So, when my Fed LEO brother-in-law comes to visit, it's a crime for me to use his automatic Benchmade, but not for me to use my assisted opening Kershaw. Nice.
-J-
You trying to get a JBT set up?

In any event I didn't make these idiotic laws. Why not instead of trying to haggle with some rando guy over the internet about it, you contact your state rep and get them to repeal the stupid law.
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Old 09-06-2008, 16:17   #20
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I just bought an SOG Twitch II. Legal as a glass of water.

What's up Pro!
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