[James Markov]

Originally Posted by Austrian_Glocker

On the upside: at least it´s always the same thread instead of the "one new thread about RF HD each month" like you see it on some other boards...

BTW: Wasn´t there the case of a young girl home alone that killed one BG and ran off several others with a .22 rimfire rifle after they broke into her home? Just recently?

Where was this incident at?

[mac66]

Originally Posted by CajunBass

Why is that a problem? Apparently people are still interested in the subject, and have been for years.

No problem, just astonished that it is still alive.

[Austrian_Glocker]

@James:

Somewhere in the US.
I´ve just read a thread about it yesterday, i´m about 99% sure it was on glocktalk. But i´m unable to find it?!? I´ll look some more...

Maybe i´m totally off and it was an older thread that sprang back to life, and the original Incidence is older...

Sorry for that, i´ll get back to you as soon as i re-find it.

[darwin25]

This may be what you are looking for
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tiiQQP4-Ijw

No shots fired.

[PhoneCop]

Originally Posted by James Markov

Anybody use the .22 here as a PRIMARY self defense gun for the home? If so, why? And, what load do you use?

Not primarily. When the Obama Ammo Shortage hit I did carry .22 (Kimber .22 LR Conversion Kit).

I believe the .22 fully functional as a self-defense caliber, just not ideal.

Never underestimate the .22, a lot of dead people have.

[MrMurphy]

Many pages back and now many years ago.......but my opinion hasn't changed.

I wouldn't choose a .22 for defense if I had anything bigger (and I do) but if it was what's at hand, the .22 can be lethal when properly applied. I've seen several people killed with .22s....it's just a matter of where you hit them. .22 LR being rimfire isn't the most reliable igniter in the world, but a 10/22 with a couple spare mags or a Marlin 60 with a full tube is better than a sharp stick.

[mixflip]

This is the main reason why I wouldnt want to use a 22lr for self defense. (unless I had no other option)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FL1zX-SrBH0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9igSoJHEdUo

[Teej]

Originally Posted by mixflip

This is the main reason why I wouldnt want to use a 22lr for self defense. (unless I had no other option)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FL1zX-SrBH0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9igSoJHEdUo

Ya, but that first one these "cops" turned their backs and ran from a guy chasing them with a knife. They circled him putting other officers in cross fire if any of them did shoot. A lot of tactical issues with this video which I have seen before.

There have been instances of police shooting knife wielding attackers mulitple times center mass and the attacker still advanced.

Agree'd the .22 is not the first choice for self defense, but it is better than a broom stick.

And the second video with Danny. Again, .22, .45 or 44 mag, none would have made a difference in the situation as depicted in this well know LEO training video.

Your point is well made, but I'd rather see someone armed with a .22 for self defense than nothing at all.

[doby]

6 rds of Stingers in the chest can be delivered in 1 second. In my book, that beats the typical cowboy missing once and hitting once, in 1 second, with a .45 L. Colt. With enough practice, and a cool, determined head, the .22 autopistol can suffice. Especially if you practice getting fast, repeat head hits, at 10 ft and less. The first rd is not part of the timing, you see. So I am only talking about .20 sec repeat hits. Such are not hard to get, at all, with a .22, at 10 ft. The top 1911 men get .11 second repeat hits, with .45's, at 10 yds, not 10 ft. If you don't wear ear protection, the blast of centerfires, indoors, is going to make you miss with a high % of your shots, anyway. Also, if you are not going to practice with the 20-30c a shot centerfire, you are better off with a .22 (and a lot of 4c per shot practice).

[mboylan]

Originally Posted by doby

6 rds of Stingers in the chest can be delivered in 1 second. In my book, that beats the typical cowboy missing once and hitting once, in 1 second, with a .45 L. Colt. With enough practice, and a cool, determined head, the .22 autopistol can suffice. Especially if you practice getting fast, repeat head hits, at 10 ft and less. The first rd is not part of the timing, you see. So I am only talking about .20 sec repeat hits. Such are not hard to get, at all, with a .22, at 10 ft. The top 1911 men get .11 second repeat hits, with .45's, at 10 yds, not 10 ft. If you don't wear ear protection, the blast of centerfires, indoors, is going to make you miss with a high % of your shots, anyway. Also, if you are not going to practice with the 20-30c a shot centerfire, you are better off with a .22 (and a lot of 4c per shot practice).

Head shots ain't gonna happen on a moving target under stress. Forget about even trying that. COM is tough enough in a life and death situation.

I don't care if you can score 6 As at 10 yards in under a second with a .40. Hitting a small moving target under extreme stress is not a survivable game plan.

[Teej]

Originally Posted by mboylan

Head shots ain't gonna happen on a moving target under stress. Forget about even trying that. COM is tough enough in a life and death situation.

I don't care if you can score 6 As at 10 yards in under a second with a .40. Hitting a small moving target under extreme stress is not a survivable game plan.

Agreed. People fall into this by constantly shooting at a flat, fixed target. They not only to not consider that a person will be moving, but they do not consider the bodies natural movement/reaction after each round punches into the body.

[mboylan]

Originally Posted by Teej

Agreed. People fall into this by constantly shooting at a flat, fixed target. They not only to not consider that a person will be moving, but they do not consider the bodies natural movement/reaction after each round punches into the body.

...and unless you have cover at the moment, you will be moving too. You want something big enough to hopefully stop with one shot. It's not easy to get one good shot in that situation. If you don't stop the attack with one shot, your chances of survival go down fast. You will take any shots you can get and as many as you can get. But depending on multiple hits with anything is foolish unless you have a solid position and solid cover. That happens in war, not a guarantee in self defense.

[snowbird]

Originally Posted by mboylan

You want something big enough to hopefully stop with one shot

If you live in a peaceful neighborhood, don't associate with shady characters, and it's ninety degrees in the shade, it's fairly likely your .45 will be resting in the safe, beside your shotgun and rifle. But your light little .22 minirevolver could be in your pocket. That, coupled with your martial arts and keen observation of opportunities to run away, might be all it takes.

In any situation, it depends ultimately on God's grace, or 'fate', or luck, however you want to phrase it.

[mboylan]

Originally Posted by snowbird

If you live in a peaceful neighborhood, don't associate with shady characters, and it's ninety degrees in the shade, it's fairly likely your .45 will be resting in the safe, beside your shotgun and rifle. But your light little .22 minirevolver could be in your pocket. That, coupled with your martial arts and keen observation of opportunities to run away, might be all it takes.

In any situation, it depends ultimately on God's grace, or 'fate', or luck, however you want to phrase it.

...there are much better pocket guns than .22s.

For home invasion, at least around here, criminals know that people are armed. They go when nobody is home or in groups of two to four. Clearing a house without a team is suicide. Best bet there is to hole up in a room, flashlight at the opposite side pointed at the door. 12 GA at the ready.

[DustyJacket]

Originally Posted by LOOGIE1

.. i dont want to kill someone just want to let them know they are not welcome...

Shooting someone, even with a .22lr, carries the risk of killing them.

Shooting someone just to let them know they are not welcome is a great way to end up in jail.

[mboylan]

Originally Posted by PhoneCop

Not primarily. When the Obama Ammo Shortage hit I did carry .22 (Kimber .22 LR Conversion Kit).

I believe the .22 fully functional as a self-defense caliber, just not ideal.

Never underestimate the .22, a lot of dead people have.

No question it can kill. But will it stop someone before you get killed?

[Teej]

Originally Posted by mboylan

... . You want something big enough to hopefully stop with one shot. It's not easy to get one good shot in that situation. If you don't stop the attack with one shot, your chances of survival go down fast. You will take any shots you can get and as many as you can get.

There are plenty of instances of individuals taking center mass hit, and some instances more than one hit, from .45's, 10mm & 40's that still carry one the fight for a time. Even a direct hit to the heart may take a few seconds for the body to stop.

So it still comes down to shot placement. 12 gauge with #4's is great if you have time to get to it. I just recounted the story of a home owner that killed a bg with a single shot 12 gauge with bird shot. The bg was so close when the home owner pulled the trigger that the bird shot did not have the distance to spread out hitting the guy in the head with a very tight group of bird shot.

Now if you hit someone in the pelvic area you have a very high probability of knocking the opponent off their feet. You would most likely have to follow up shoot to end the fight, but it will stop the opponent from advancing on you.

I have FBI statistics of .22 killings. It will take me a while to find them. The .22 is not my 1st choice either. I did however; several yrs ago grab my .22 revolver when I did not have time to unlock something bigger and the .22 was loaded with hollow points waiting on a pesky raccoon. I did not have to aim or pull the trigger, but the sight of the 6" barrel in the low light instantly stopped both guys, backing them back to their vehicle and they promptly left our property. [Now the 12 guage with #4's is kept at ready]

[Teej]

This was a stude of Law Enforcement Officers killed by handguns. Some of this killings were with the officers gun. The first number is for the yr 2007', the second number in ( ) is the 10 yr number. So keeping with the OP post, in a 20 yr period we know that 20 officers were killed with .22 pistols. Looking at the other numbers clearly shows that the .22 is not the best choice, however it can do the job in a self defense situation.

LEOs killed with handguns – 38 (368)
•.22 caliber – 3 (20)
•.22 magnum – 1 (1)
•.25 caliber – 4 (11)
•.32 caliber – 2 (8)
•.357 caliber – 0 (19)
•.357 magnum – 1 (11)
•.38 caliber -5 (41)
•.380 caliber – 2 (31)
•.40 caliber – 2 (57)
•.41 magnum -0 (1)
•.44 caliber – 0 (2)
•.44 magnum – 0 (6)
•.45 caliber – 5 (42)
•.50 caliber – 0 (2)
•7.62×25 mm – 0 (1)
•9mm – 10 (102)
•Handgun caliber not reported – 3 (9)

Now look at this study:


<TABLE dir=ltr border=1 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=7 width=661><TBODY><TR><TD height=18 vAlign=top colSpan=8 *********#f3f3f3>NYPD SOP-9 1988-2001†

COMPARISON OF SHOOTING INCIDENTS ††

</TD></TR><TR><TD height=25 vAlign=top width="12%">YEAR

</TD><TD height=25 vAlign=top width="12%">TOTAL

NUMBER OF INCIDENTS

</TD><TD height=25 vAlign=top width="12%">NUMBER OF SHOOTING INCIDENTS

</TD><TD height=25 vAlign=top width="12%"># SHOTS FIRED BY OFFICERS

</TD><TD height=25 vAlign=top width="12%">AVERAGE SHOTS PER INCIDENT

</TD><TD height=25 vAlign=top width="12%">AVERAGE SHOTS PER OFFICER

</TD><TD height=25 vAlign=top width="12%">TOTAL SHOTS FIRED BY OFFICERS AT PERP.

</TD><TD height=25 vAlign=top width="13%">TOTAL HITS BY OFFICERS

AT PERP.

</TD></TR><TR><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="12%">1988

</TD><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="12%">371

</TD><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="12%">251

</TD><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="12%">752

</TD><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="12%">3

</TD><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="12%">2.4

</TD><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="12%">540

</TD><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="13%">100

</TD></TR><TR><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="12%">1989

</TD><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="12%">450

</TD><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="12%">329

</TD><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="12%">1073

</TD><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="12%">3.3

</TD><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="12%">2.6

</TD><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="12%">823

</TD><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="13%">157

</TD></TR><TR><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="12%">1990

</TD><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="12%">425

</TD><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="12%">307

</TD><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="12%">1176

</TD><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="12%">3.8

</TD><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="12%">2.8

</TD><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="12%">965

</TD><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="13%">220

</TD></TR><TR><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="12%">1991

</TD><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="12%">440

</TD><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="12%">332

</TD><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="12%">1112

</TD><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="12%">3.4

</TD><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="12%">2.6

</TD><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="12%">846

</TD><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="13%">175

</TD></TR><TR><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="12%">1992

</TD><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="12%">392

</TD><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="12%">279

</TD><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="12%">1094

</TD><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="12%">3.9

</TD><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="12%">2.7

</TD><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="12%">875

</TD><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="13%">193

</TD></TR><TR><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="12%">1993

</TD><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="12%">415

</TD><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="12%">312

</TD><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="12%">1193

</TD><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="12%">3.8

</TD><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="12%">2.8

</TD><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="12%">928

</TD><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="13%">173

</TD></TR><TR><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="12%">1994

</TD><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="12%">419

</TD><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="12%">331

</TD><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="12%">1146

</TD><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="12%">3.5

</TD><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="12%">2.6

</TD><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="12%">689

</TD><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="13%">138

</TD></TR><TR><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="12%">1995

</TD><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="12%">435

</TD><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="12%">345

</TD><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="12%">1728

</TD><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="12%">5

</TD><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="12%">3.6

</TD><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="12%">1245

</TD><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="13%">255

</TD></TR><TR><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="12%">1996

</TD><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="12%">410

</TD><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="12%">318

</TD><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="12%">1292

</TD><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="12%">4.1

</TD><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="12%">3.1

</TD><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="12%">892

</TD><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="13%">201

</TD></TR><TR><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="12%">1997

</TD><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="12%">329

</TD><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="12%">253

</TD><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="12%">1040

</TD><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="12%">4.1

</TD><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="12%">3.1

</TD><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="12%">708

</TD><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="13%">121

</TD></TR><TR><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="12%">1998

</TD><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="12%">321

</TD><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="12%">249

</TD><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="12%">856

</TD><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="12%">3.4

</TD><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="12%">2.6

</TD><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="12%">529

</TD><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="13%">302

</TD></TR><TR><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="12%">1999

</TD><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="12%">202

</TD><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="12%">155

</TD><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="12%">621

</TD><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="12%">4.0

</TD><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="12%">3.2

</TD><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="12%">389

</TD><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="13%">88

</TD></TR><TR><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="12%">2000

</TD><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="12%">134

</TD><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="12%">129

</TD><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="12%">471

</TD><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="12%">4.6

</TD><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="12%">3.3

</TD><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="12%">367

</TD><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="13%">58

</TD></TR><TR><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="12%">2001†

</TD><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="12%">67

</TD><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="12%">67

</TD><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="12%">162

</TD><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="12%">3.6

</TD><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="12%">2.7

</TD><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="12%">103

</TD><TD height=9 vAlign=top width="13%">22

</TD></TR><TR><TD height=10 vAlign=top width="12%" *********#e0e0e0>TOTALS

</TD><TD height=10 vAlign=top width="12%" *********#e0e0e0>4810

</TD><TD height=10 vAlign=top width="12%" *********#e0e0e0>3657

</TD><TD height=10 vAlign=top width="12%" *********#e0e0e0>13716

</TD><TD height=10 vAlign=top width="12%" *********#e0e0e0>3.82

</TD><TD height=10 vAlign=top width="12%" *********#e0e0e0>2.86

</TD><TD height=10 vAlign=top width="12%" *********#e0e0e0>9899

</TD><TD height=10 vAlign=top width="13%" *********#e0e0e0>2203

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

So again coming down to training, and I am assuming LEO's for the most part get better training than MOST civilian self defense minded home firearm owners. Of 9,899 LEO shots fired only " 2203" hit the target.

So in conclusion .44 mag, .45, 40, .357 or .22, if you miss during a stressful fight for your life, it is not going to matter what caliber. So practice a lot. If the .22 is all someone has to defend with, practice some more!!!

[mboylan]

Originally Posted by Teej

There are plenty of instances of individuals taking center mass hit, and some instances more than one hit, from .45's, 10mm & 40's that still carry one the fight for a time. Even a direct hit to the heart may take a few seconds for the body to stop.

Sometimes a big round fails to stop. Sometimes bullets fail. However, how much quicker on average will an optimal self-defense round end a fight than a .22LR? The .22LR can kill. The question is can it stop before you get killed? Sometimes there are no winners in a gun fight. The longer a gun fight lasts, the lower your chances for survival are.

[CajunBass]

Originally Posted by mac66

No problem, just astonished that it is still alive.

Yea. I gotta admit, that is a bit of a surprise.

[James Markov]

I cannot wait to try Aguila's 60 grail load with 22 pistols and rifles..it oughta be fun IMO! I am aiting 4 the weather to warm up though..

[deputy tom]

Well James,since this thread won't die I'll add a little to it.As Mr.Murphy stated a few posts back,the .22 LR isn't the best in ignition owing to it's rimmed primer.Back around forty years ago that wasn't the norm.In those days QC was much better and if I remember correctly I only had one mis-fire and that was a Remington Express shotgun shell not a .22 rimfire.Young newly weds on a budget bought what they could for HD and in my circle of friends it was a Ruger Standard model or a Nylon 66 loaded with CCI Stingers.We all wished we could afford larger caliber guns but made due with what we had.We have all gone our seperate ways and all have up-graded to more powerful firearms but we all are still alive and well despite having been limited to rimfires for defense back in the days.YMMV.tom.

[Ak.Hiker]

Originally Posted by deputy tom

Well James,since this thread won't die I'll add a little to it.As Mr.Murphy stated a few posts back,the .22 LR isn't the best in ignition owing to it's rimmed primer.Back around forty years ago that wasn't the norm.In those days QC was much better and if I remember correctly I only had one mis-fire and that was a Remington Express shotgun shell not a .22 rimfire.Young newly weds on a budget bought what they could for HD and in my circle of friends it was a Ruger Standard model or a Nylon 66 loaded with CCI Stingers.We all wished we could afford larger caliber guns but made due with what we had.We have all gone our seperate ways and all have up-graded to more powerful firearms but we all are still alive and well despite having been limited to rimfires for defense back in the days.YMMV.tom.

The Nylon 66 was my first rifle. It was a good light weight all weather packing gun that is for sure. I carried that gun with me on more than a few hikes as a young guy.

[James Markov]

I wish they would come back out with the Nylon 66...it would be a fun gun to buy!!

[deputy tom]

Originally Posted by James Markov

I wish they would come back out with the Nylon 66...it would be a fun gun to buy!!

I agree.I'd take two or three.tom.