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Old 12-13-2009, 14:25   #301
mboylan
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Originally Posted by sfd_324 View Post
The funny thing is, all these people who think a 22 is not a sufficient round won't stand in front of you and let you shoot them with it.

Me personally, a gun is a gun..... you point a 22 or a 45 at me & it sends the same message.....This is fixing to hurt!!!!
The point is will it stop a determined attacker (probably on drugs) before he kills you. The .22 will eventually cause death by internal bleeding with center of mass hits. Two hits to center of mass with a .45 will incapcitate.
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Old 12-13-2009, 18:20   #302
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Originally Posted by mboylan View Post
The point is will it stop a determined attacker (probably on drugs) before he kills you. The .22 will eventually cause death by internal bleeding with center of mass hits. Two hits to center of mass with a .45 will incapcitate.
There was an individual shot here several times (greater than 4) with a 40 in the upper shoulder/torso area....and he drove off!
had to go to the hospital but still alive.

so its not always about how big the gun is.....

Last edited by sfd_324; 12-14-2009 at 08:38..
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Old 12-13-2009, 18:37   #303
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Originally Posted by James Markov View Post
Thanks for the link gents. I will look at that snipershide in a bit. Not to stray too far off topic, but I hear Keltec is coming out with a .22 magnum pistol with a 30 round magazine-that has cool written all over it!!!
http://www.keltecweapons.com/images/pmr-30.pdf
yup...30 rounds of .22 magnum will sure get the job done.
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Old 12-13-2009, 19:02   #304
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Anyone who says a .22 is not an EFFECTIVE round is someone that's never been shot with one. Now remember, there is a difference between "effective" and "ideal".

22 LR Stinger? Effective.

.357 Sig JHP? IDEAL.
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Old 12-14-2009, 07:46   #305
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Originally Posted by GSSF17 View Post
Anyone who says a .22 is not an EFFECTIVE round is someone that's never been shot with one. Now remember, there is a difference between "effective" and "ideal".

22 LR Stinger? Effective.

.357 Sig JHP? IDEAL.

I know only one person, personally, who was shot with a .22LR (he was mugged). He was shot in the leg, and he said he thought his leg had been blown off. His only concern was being wheeled into the operating room.

I don't regard this person as a wussy.

Clearly, by any standard, the .22LR is not an ideal defense round. But people who scoff at its potential, and the damage that can be wrought, have in most likelihood never been shot.

.
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Old 12-21-2009, 14:38   #306
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Years ago, Massad Ayoob wrote that he'd rather have a .22LR or .25ACP (reliable) semi-auto or double-action revolver than a small derringer, and a .380ACP than a large derringer. The US Army switched from .45ACP to 9mmLuger and from .308 to .223. So all of this suggests that firepower trumps one-shot stopping power, other things being equal.

One of those other things is reliability, and another is concealability.

So, IMHO, for concealed carry, a NAA rimfire minirevolver is hard to beat, despite only having 5 rounds and needing to be thumb-cocked before each shot. And for longer-distance shooting with faster follow-up shots (and economy), a Ruger Charger .22LR 10-shot rotary magazine with bipod and scope. This gun could be carried concealed easier than most shoulder-arms, which may become necessary in some situations -think unlawful gun confiscations post Katrina just when good folks needed guns the most for defense against criminal gangs.

For a medium-range, home defense gun, take your pick of numerous possibilities (Glocks, shotguns, carbines, double-action revolvers, and more).
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Old 12-21-2009, 15:15   #307
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Originally Posted by snowbird View Post
Years ago, Massad Ayoob wrote that he'd rather have a .22LR or .25ACP (reliable) semi-auto or double-action revolver than a small derringer, and a .380ACP than a large derringer. The US Army switched from .45ACP to 9mmLuger and from .308 to .223. So all of this suggests that firepower trumps one-shot stopping power, other things being equal.

[clip]
The switch to a smaller caliber was politics, not based on real life effectiveness. Europe was already 9mm with most of their service pistols, NATO dictated that the US change over. Same issue with the switch to 5.56.
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Old 12-21-2009, 15:50   #308
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Originally Posted by RedHaze View Post
The switch to a smaller caliber was politics, not based on real life effectiveness. Europe was already 9mm with most of their service pistols, NATO dictated that the US change over. Same issue with the switch to 5.56.
That is wrong, The switch from 7.62 to 5.56 had to do with the ability of hitting a 400 yard target accurately during rapid fire. The M14 is a fantastic rifle, but it fail that test while M16 passed with flying colors.

While I think your right with the pistol calibers, the same can be said about the 1911 vs the Beretta M9. Personally having been in the Army and in Law Enforcement I rather have a high capacity over firepower.

Would you rather have a Bond Arms Derringer in .45 or a Kahr Arms PM9 in your pocket. I really like the Bond Arms for reliability but I cannot get past the worry of geting jump by 3 guys and defending myself with a 2 shot derringer.
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Old 12-21-2009, 22:20   #309
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That is wrong, The switch from 7.62 to 5.56 had to do with the ability of hitting a 400 yard target accurately during rapid fire. The M4 is a fantastic rifle, but it fail that test while M16 passed with flying colors.

While I think your right with the pistol calibers, the same can be said about the 1911 vs the Berretta M. Personally having been in the Army and in Law Enforcement I rather have a high capacity over firepower.

Would you rather have a Bond Arms Derringer in .45 or a Ka hr Arms PM in your pocket. I really like the Bond Arms for reliability but I cannot get past the worry of getting jump by 3 guys and defending myself with a 2 shot derringer.
I coined a phrase in the mid 80s "More is better, always" Still believe it.
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Old 12-21-2009, 22:59   #310
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Humans are fragile things if hit in the right spot. With anything.
I just read a book on this husband and wife serial killer team, his weapon
everytime was a .25 raven.
He would shoot 2-3 in the chest or head, easy shots due to the low recoil, and nobody walked away.

The Point is a gun with low recoil that can hit a dime sized target, can easily hit a heart, or head, and it will always be fatal near immediately for a cool shot. For a good shot and a calm operator, a .22 doesn't have to be a "bleed out" type bullet. It can be the IDEAL bullet.
Sure a .22 or a .25 is less than ideal for spray and pray, but for a man with a steady hand it can make someone as dead as a .50 caliber.
And do it a whole lot quieter.

I wouldn't feel underpowered carrying a .22. I did it for a decade.
I know I can hit a 2 inch group with 10 shots offhand at 10 yards rapid fire shooting.
Why would I feel underpowered?
The only thing that would give me pause would be the reliability of rimfire
ammo. Not the power of the bullet.
The whole "knockdown" power thing is silly and should have been put down a long time ago.
It's bullet placement, always has been, always will be.
Place any bullet right, the results are the same.
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Old 12-21-2009, 23:24   #311
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Rimfire Forum

Cabela's gatling gun kit:
http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/te...questid=232488
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Old 12-22-2009, 05:17   #312
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Originally Posted by gatorhugger View Post
Humans are fragile things if hit in the right spot. With anything.
I just read a book on this husband and wife serial killer team, his weapon
every time was a .25 raven.
He would shoot 2-3 in the chest or head, easy shots due to the low recoil, and nobody walked away.

The Point is a gun with low recoil that can hit a dime sized target, can easily hit a heart, or head, and it will always be fatal near immediately for a cool shot. For a good shot and a calm operator, a .22 doesn't have to be a "bleed out" type bullet. It can be the IDEAL bullet.
Sure a .22 or a .25 is less than ideal for spray and pray, but for a man with a steady hand it can make someone as dead as a .50 caliber.
And do it a whole lot quieter.

I wouldn't feel underpowered carrying a .22. I did it for a decade.
I know I can hit a 2 inch group with 10 shots offhand at 10 yards rapid fire shooting.
Why would I feel underpowered?
The only thing that would give me pause would be the reliability of rim fire
ammo. Not the power of the bullet.
The whole "knockdown" power thing is silly and should have been put down a long time ago.
It's bullet placement, always has been, always will be.
Place any bullet right, the results are the same.
It would have been, had not many people made lots of money off the myth of the magic bullet. From the ammunition companies to the vast array of Gun Writers, and Instructors all over the world.

When dealing with a pistol sized firearm, carried on person, if all you have is a lowly .22 it will have to do, in shooting .22 in competition, misfires (alibis) were way more common than with center fire cartridges.

That is why I carry a Glock 19 in 9mm. I can not remember a miss fire in IDPA competition, with reloads no less.
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Old 12-24-2009, 01:37   #313
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I would say that the best .22 cal "home defence weapon" would have to be any semi auto rifle, with at least a 10 round clip. If the 10 rounds proved to be not effective enough, you could still use it like a club.

The best shot placement idea is great on the range, when you're relaxed and have all the time in the world. But when you are scrambling in the dark, all nekkid, startled and half asleep, the best shot placement will be a real challange.

But as stated before, any gun is still better than nothing...
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Old 12-24-2009, 14:42   #314
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What about cyanide-tipped .22Lr's? i believe those would get thet the job done.
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Old 12-24-2009, 17:33   #315
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What about cyanide-tipped .22Lr's? i believe those would get thet the job done.
You can't be serious...
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Old 12-24-2009, 20:05   #316
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If all I had was a 22lr then it would have to do-- but I think the 22mag is seriously underated by most people. I would have no problem carrying a 22 mag and feeling adequate.
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Old 12-25-2009, 00:52   #317
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If all I had was a .22 for HD, I'd be more comfortable with a Ruger 10/22 and several 25-round mags.
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Old 12-25-2009, 01:31   #318
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Originally Posted by LOOGIE1 View Post
this is what i use for home defence its the only pistol i have its a bereta neos .22. i dont want to kill someone just want to let them know they are not welcome and if 10 shots wont do that they are going to get the best of me anyway i use federal copper jacketd hollow point
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Great choice! Ya never know when a large rat might attack you.
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Old 12-25-2009, 09:46   #319
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Great choice! Ya never know when a large rat might attack you.
He said it's all he has, and it is what he will use if necessary.
Large rat, huh? Go ahead and take a pair of .22 lr to the chest from that Neos you are goofing on! Not me!

LOOGIE1-- Just take caution when making the choice to defend your home, but in the same breath say that you "don't wanna kill somebody" but rather, use the gun to send a message that they are "not welcome". Bad idea. If you make the choice to defend yourself using a (hand)gun- That's deadly force- and be prepared to follow through with it, and ensure you are justified. If you pull out a gun to "send a message", then it will likely end up being used on YOU.

Peace.
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Old 12-25-2009, 09:53   #320
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Originally Posted by GSSF17 View Post
He said it's all he has, and it is what he will use if necessary.
Large rat, huh? Go ahead and take a pair of .22 lr to the chest from that Neos you are goofing on! Not me!

LOOGIE1-- Just take caution when making the choice to defend your home, but in the same breath say that you "don't wanna kill somebody" but rather, use the gun to send a message that they are "not welcome". Bad idea. If you make the choice to defend yourself using a (hand)gun- That's deadly force- and be prepared to follow through with it, and ensure you are justified. If you pull out a gun to "send a message", then it will likely end up being used on YOU.

Peace.



Excellent post!

There was a time when the only firearm I had with which to defend hearth and home was a S&W 63 .22LR kit gun. It wasn't an optimum choice, but if called upon in dire need, I would have used it without compunction.

.
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