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Old 11-12-2014, 21:55   #1
avidoutdoorsman
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Glock 20sf loads

I have a new g20 and was wondering what recoil spring i need to put in it to shoot some higher velocity ammo. I am a reloader and was loading a 155 grain fmj but want to step it up a bit. Also does anyone know if you can use 4227 mag powder in the 10mm. I use it in my 357 mag but was wondering if i could use a reduced grain and be ok.
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Old 11-12-2014, 22:43   #2
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You likely don't need a + power recoil spring for shooting higher-impulse ammo. My Gen3 eats everything from mild to wild and all bullet weights. I suggest shooting the ammo that you have in mind and see if you have a problem. I went the route of heavier RSA, but found that I had some failures to feed with hotter ammo. Also felt recoil is heavier. So I abandoned the idea and have since had best overall results with the stock RSA.

I don't have first hand experience with the powder that you've suggested although I can say that the slowest-burning powder that is widely used for 10mm auto is Accurate no. 9. Some have used 2400 with decent results, although lowish velocities.
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Old 11-12-2014, 22:52   #3
fredj338
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I went to a 22# in mine, seems more reliable. 4227 is a bit too slow as is 2400. If you are using 200gr bullets, you can get some usable loads with both. For 155gr, longshot, 800x (must be hand weighed) or Aa#7 woud be your best bet for max loads.
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Old 11-13-2014, 10:58   #4
WeeWilly
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I too use a 22lb RSA on all my G20SF's. I use the stainless guide rod and ISMI spring combination Glockmeister sells.

I found with higher loadings my slide would bang the receiver just in front of the slide lug causing mushrooming. The particular 22lb spring I noted above will cycle my lightest 40S&W loads, so the only downside for me is what Taterhead mentioned is a slightly more felt recoil (on all loads).

Maybe try it and see how your gun reacts to the stock spring and your hot loads before springing (pun intended) for the heavier unit.

I prefer 180gr slugs for 10mm, so the following may be a tad slow for 155's (in some cases). I prefer Longshot, Blue Dot, AA #9 and VV-N105 for nuke loads (which I load few of these days).
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Old 11-14-2014, 10:08   #5
avidoutdoorsman
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Thx Taterhead i will probably play around with differant loads. I got some 800x so going to load some up with that. It really hard to find powder here in MT.
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Old 11-14-2014, 10:11   #6
avidoutdoorsman
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Thx Fred will try some 800x. I am going to try it in my progressive loader but will check the powder throw often.
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Old 11-14-2014, 10:14   #7
avidoutdoorsman
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Great info on the g20sf. I will order up a 22lb with guide rod. I want to get to 1400 fps with the 180 gr. Looking for a backcountry defense round for safety. What do you think of hardcast bullets?
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Old 11-14-2014, 12:14   #8
WeeWilly
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Not sure 180gr bullet at 1400fps is possible with a stock length barrel. You can probably get there with a 6" hunting barrel. I am also not sure that is your best bet in any case. I don't think any of the quality JHP will perform as well at that kind of velocity, they usually like something closer to 1100-1250fps.

I do think hard cast is a great back country bullet. A 200gr WFNGC going 1200fps is likely going to leave two holes in anything you might run into in North America. That is very achievable with a stock G20 barrel and any number of slower powders like the ones already listed.

Just my $.02 worth.
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Old 11-14-2014, 13:48   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avidoutdoorsman View Post
Thx Fred will try some 800x. I am going to try it in my progressive loader but will check the powder throw often.
It won't meter worth a crap, 3/10gr accuracy, regardless of the measure. It's a large flake powder, best hand weighed. Why I am not a fan. BlueDot, AA#9 & Longshot are also good full power 10mm choices that will feed in any measure.
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Old 11-14-2014, 13:50   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avidoutdoorsman View Post
Great info on the g20sf. I will order up a 22lb with guide rod. I want to get to 1400 fps with the 180 gr. Looking for a backcountry defense round for safety. What do you think of hardcast bullets?
IMO, you won't get there in a stock length bbl w/o bending something. 1250fps, yes, maybe pushing really hard, 1300fps. I can get 200gr to 1200fps or 220gr @ 1100fps+ w/o a Glock smiley in my basic stock 20sf. These are plated or jacketed bullets. I want to get some 200gr cast WFN but can't find a source yet. For the cost of 1000 cast, I may just get a mold & make my own.
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"Given adequate penetration, a larger diameter bullet will have an edge in wounding effectiveness. It will damage a blood vessel the smaller projectile barely misses. The larger permanent cavity may lead to faster blood loss. Although such an edge clearly exists, its significance cannot be quantified".

Last edited by fredj338; 11-14-2014 at 13:53..
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Old 11-14-2014, 13:55   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WeeWilly View Post
I do think hard cast is a great back country bullet. A 200gr WFNGC going 1200fps is likely going to leave two holes in anything you might run into in North America. That is very achievable with a stock G20 barrel and any number of slower powders like the ones already listed.

Just my $.02 worth.
I don't know why they put a gc on a hard cast bullet to only go 1200fps. I may have Accurate molds make what I want, no gc though. If the goal is only 1200fps, easily done w/o leading with a clip ww alloy bullet or at worst, water quenched. I asked the guys on the 10mm forum for bullet dims. Accurate has a mold that is close & only needs the meplat enlarged to 0.320".
I tested my 220gr plated loads in wetpack against my current 44mag back packing load. Neither bullet stops in 18" of wetpack. Of course the 44mag makes a bigger hole.
The 220gr plated form Extreme are tough to get good stability. IME, you have to get at least 1100fps for good groups. That is pushing the 10mm quite hard with available powders. Why the 10mm will never be a 44mag. A cast 250grLSWC loafing along at 1200fps isn't stopping inside anything walking the lower 48, maybe not even Alaska. It's also not punishing the gun or shooter to get that. Still a G20 is interesting as a back packing rig for it's light wt & flat shape.
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"Given adequate penetration, a larger diameter bullet will have an edge in wounding effectiveness. It will damage a blood vessel the smaller projectile barely misses. The larger permanent cavity may lead to faster blood loss. Although such an edge clearly exists, its significance cannot be quantified".

Last edited by fredj338; 11-14-2014 at 14:01..
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Old 11-14-2014, 14:37   #12
happie2shoot
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This is what I cast, 200gr, what would be a good price to sell them for.
http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product...6hdc26mt905qv4

I also make a Lee 180gr tc that is 183gr.

Was going to try and cast for a living back in the early 1980s but back
then cast boolits weren't too popular.

I also want a G/C mold for the hotter loads, what would you people pay
for a box of a hundred, also have many other molds in rifle and pistol,
maybe 50+ and shot gun slugs too.

Last edited by happie2shoot; 11-14-2014 at 14:38..
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Old 11-14-2014, 14:45   #13
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Heads up

Quote:
Originally Posted by avidoutdoorsman View Post
Thx Fred will try some 800x. I am going to try it in my progressive loader but will check the powder throw often.
Avid, once you load one or two individual cartridge cases (not boxes) with the beloved 800X, you may discover you need to measure each following individual case (not box). Unless you just don't care within .2g +- or so that is. But this is serious 'bidness anywhere near older sources' max loading as 800X produces the greatest velocities--even though pressures are comparatively lower than other powders--as the flakes are so HUGE you could use tweezers to load each individual flake of the stuff if you want to be accurate with it.
Oh, yeah: it's worth it. Per Hornady manual and older Hodgdon/IMR source: with KKM 6" bbl, 9.6g 800X pushing 180g HAP or XTP @COAL of 1.26"=1360fps avg. .
I suggest only using quality main-line brass--Starline when you can find it, and ONLY the aftermarket barrels with narrow chambers if you're getting anywhere near a published max load. The narrower chamber of the KKM allows safer brass expansion and Starline brass is...forgiving. Glock's chamber is purposely more open, allowing mud/grit/combat conditioned ammo to be fed and therefore allows great brass expansion which can be potentially dangerous with brittle brass or possibly even good brass--haven't seen that though but why push things with explosives.
Bottom line is the 10mm is large enough in case capacity and the Glock chamber open enough to expose any weakness via a Kaboom near max loads, which vary source to source I can't help but believe due to liability concerns. Here's one that's lowered the max from 10g down to 8.7 g at some point in time, for example, when pressure at the higher load is no where near the SAAMI max. Go figure.
http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/pistol
Be safe and start low, for your own sake. Look for pressure signs--bulged brass, 'flattened' primers from their trying to expand out of their recess. Take your time and enjoy the process of loading and...shooting the fruits of your labor.
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Old 11-14-2014, 15:09   #14
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Here's where I've found some of the older, more "radical" 10mm recipes:
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/414...ProductFinding
It's a loose-filed pooling of sources, a "Drudge Report" of loading info.
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Old 11-14-2014, 16:26   #15
fredj338
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Quote:
Originally Posted by happie2shoot View Post
This is what I cast, 200gr, what would be a good price to sell them for.
http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product...6hdc26mt905qv4

I also make a Lee 180gr tc that is 183gr.

Was going to try and cast for a living back in the early 1980s but back
then cast boolits weren't too popular.

I also want a G/C mold for the hotter loads, what would you people pay
for a box of a hundred, also have many other molds in rifle and pistol,
maybe 50+ and shot gun slugs too.
Well to legally make & sell, you need a FFL. Just price any comm cast 180-200gr & most would pay a bit more for the right style bullet. I used to cast for a hobby business, FFL & all, you don't make much $$ after buying the alloy, figure $2/# delivered. Range scrap is not consistent enough for commercial sales IMO. You need a known alloy so bullets bought this year are the same as bullets bought next year. Not to mention the time spent doing it.
Even with a good 6cav mold or Magma MC machine, 600-700/hr is about it. Then lube, size, inspect & box, another hr/1000. If you just want a retirement hobby & make a little $$ on the side, go for it. There are buyers out there for specialty bullets. Otherwise, you are competeing with a lot of mom&pop casters making the same 200gr slwc.
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"Given adequate penetration, a larger diameter bullet will have an edge in wounding effectiveness. It will damage a blood vessel the smaller projectile barely misses. The larger permanent cavity may lead to faster blood loss. Although such an edge clearly exists, its significance cannot be quantified".

Last edited by fredj338; 11-14-2014 at 16:27..
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Old 11-14-2014, 18:35   #16
happie2shoot
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I know about what it takes, I had a manufacturing license in the 90s,
I was making guns then.

It is a lot of work and the reward is small.

Last edited by happie2shoot; 11-14-2014 at 18:36..
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Old 11-14-2014, 19:47   #17
WeeWilly
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
I don't know why they put a gc on a hard cast bullet to only go 1200fps. I may have Accurate molds make what I want, no gc though. If the goal is only 1200fps, easily done w/o leading with a clip ww alloy bullet or at worst, water quenched. I asked the guys on the 10mm forum for bullet dims. Accurate has a mold that is close & only needs the meplat enlarged to 0.320".
I tested my 220gr plated loads in wetpack against my current 44mag back packing load. Neither bullet stops in 18" of wetpack. Of course the 44mag makes a bigger hole.
The 220gr plated form Extreme are tough to get good stability. IME, you have to get at least 1100fps for good groups. That is pushing the 10mm quite hard with available powders. Why the 10mm will never be a 44mag. A cast 250grLSWC loafing along at 1200fps isn't stopping inside anything walking the lower 48, maybe not even Alaska. It's also not punishing the gun or shooter to get that. Still a G20 is interesting as a back packing rig for it's light wt & flat shape.
I don't disagree on the 40 cal WFNGC, plain base would probably work just as well if the fit is right.

I have never gotten bullets heavier than 200gr to work well in my 10mm Glocks. I haven't really tried all that much as the 200gr WFNGC's will do everything I might need. The heavies just don't seem to stabilize for me.

I have loaded both the Bear Tooth 200gr WFNGC's and the Double Tap 200gr WFNGC. The meplat are the same, but the bullets a little different. I was surprised as I assumed NcNett probably just sent him one of his BT 200's and told the mold maker to duplicate it, but the bullets are different. The DT's are longer by about .025" and have no bearing surface to speak of above the crimp groove. The BT's are shorter and have a little bearing surface above the crimp groove.

I prefer the consistency of the BT's and the delivery time and price of the DT (relatively speaking). I have gotten excellent results with the BT running them up to 1200fps from a stock G20SF barrel.
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Old 11-14-2014, 20:14   #18
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There is no more forgiving powder for 10mm than Accurate no. 9. 800-X and Long Shot have given some great velocities, buy you'll be venturing way off book to get anywhere with velocities. I prefer Long Shot over 800-X since velocities and charge weights are very close. But Long Shot will meter decently.

My pet back-country load is a Beartooth WFNGC hardcast over Accurate no. 9. I loosely based my load workup on some older 200 gr Speer TMJ data. About 1215 fps in the stock barrel G20. I have used both of the Double Tap and Beartooth variants, and I prefer the quality of the Beartooth. Although when you order from Beartooth, lead times are so long that you kind of forgot that you placed an order by the time the bullets arrive.

If I were a bullet caster, I would think like Fred and look to ordering a mould in a similar shape. They are spendy from DT, but even more from BT.
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Old 11-14-2014, 21:39   #19
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A high quality 4cav mold from Accurate is less than $140. That's 500 BT bullets. I think a new mold is coming my way.
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Old 11-14-2014, 22:29   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avidoutdoorsman View Post
Great info on the g20sf. I will order up a 22lb with guide rod. I want to get to 1400 fps with the 180 gr. Looking for a backcountry defense round for safety. What do you think of hardcast bullets?

Bought same gun for same reason. Use it on yearly remote float trips in Alaska primarily. I got the 22 lb spring and ISMI stainless rod Weewilly mentioned earlier. XS big dot fast acquisition sight. KKM stock length barrel which improved accuracy big time. Mainly was shooting double tap 200 gr hardcast. But now reloading my own. Made up 180 gr Missouri Bullet IDPA #5 load with 7.6 gr of Longshot. Great plinker load and very accurate. Bluedot and Longshot are very popular 10 mm powders. I will use one of them to work up a 200 gr hardcast load to emulate the double tap load which was a 200 gr hardcast gas check bullet at about 1250-1300 fps as I recall. As for hardcast, the Missouri bullets are accurate and leading is minimal. Only shoot 200 or so, half that just last week. But I'm happy so far. But I'm not pushing them hard so if doing so more leading would be a likely issue.



Dan
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