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Old 09-17-2005, 11:24   #26
dapolice1
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jim
the other would fail to lock the slide back when empty. New springs fixed 'em both.
Logic would say your problem was springs, but I had a fellow officer with same issues in a G22. It was also FTF. He tried everything and finaly sent it to glock. They replaced his followers with the new design, and viola. Problem fixed. Would leave me to believe that SOME of the earlier mag issues were actually follower problems. Springs do wear out like everthing else.

I choose to rotate them on my duty weapon every month or so, just for peace of mind. I also use range mags for the range and duty mags for duty. The range mags are dropped onto the concrete during relods and thus MIGHT effect the mag bodies and spring. I do not take a chance. My duty mags will only hit the ground once!!!
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Old 09-18-2005, 13:44   #27
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FWIW, I have always kept all my Glock magazines fully loaded without any problems whatsoever! That includes all sizes of magazines of genuine Glock manufacture.
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Old 09-23-2005, 08:52   #28
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Hmmm. How will I allocate that extra time I gain from not rotating mags? If I'd paid attention to anything other than "conventional wisdom" I'd have noted a long time ago that it was my IDPA mags that weakened. The ones that were constantly loaded and then unloaded. The fun way.
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Old 09-24-2005, 18:03   #29
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Hehe- first post, may as well jump in....

I recall reading one or other of the gun magazines years ago where they had found some 1911 magazines that had been left loaded since WWII... Worked perfectly.
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Old 09-25-2005, 20:16   #30
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they had found some 1911 magazines that had been left loaded since WWII... Worked perfectly. [/B]
Reminds me of the warehouse at the end of Raiders of the Lost Ark. You just know the government has a giant building filled with WWII 1911's loaded and ready to go
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Old 09-25-2005, 20:49   #31
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Loaded old magazines!

When I lived in the UK, in the early sixties, I got a call from the local Police Station, "Mike can you come and look at this gun this Lady handed in" off I went, big grease proof brown paper bag, in it a WW11 Sten Gun, bolt forward, magazine snapped in.
(English Police and guns!!!?)

An other mag; in the bag also, loaded, took mag; off the gun, loaded! Cycled the bolt, perfect, unscrewed the barrel, pulled it through with a piece of string, and a bit of cloth, like new.

Off to the local tip, ear plugs in, a few bursts later, locked back, every round fired, picked up 60 shell caseings.The magazines would have been loaded 20 or so years then.

When the old guy passed away, the Sten was under the bed, ready to go! Make my day would have taken on a whole new meaning to a burglar!
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Old 10-04-2005, 10:10   #32
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Funny

First, it's funny about the old guy and the Sten.

Second, it's funny how the "download your magazine, rotate your ammo" myth lives on, even in this post! Reasons:
* One guy had malfunctions after 33,000 rounds
* Glock magazines are (supposedly) poorly designed
* Springs "lose energy" (whatever that means)
* It makes me feel better
* It's what I've always done, and I don't want to change

Let's set the record straight, once and for all. The only valid reasons to download/rotate your magazine/ammo:
* Poorly designed magazines
* Creasing of ammo carried on active duty
* It makes you feel better
* You don't want to change your stubborn ways

The shooting community was bamboozled by a bunch of writers into thinking a spring could "take set," whatever that means. Let's allow this myth to die in peace.
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Old 10-06-2005, 19:06   #33
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I remember about seven years ago some big importer/exporter outfit had WWII G.I. 1911 mags that were fully loaded and had been sitting in crates since the war. They were selling cheap but I know two people that bought some and they ran fine even after that many years. Basically they were selling surplus ball but the magazines were just thrown in to boot.
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Old 10-19-2005, 18:02   #34
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There is nothing wrong with leaving mags fully loaded. Springs only develop problems by "cycling", (lots of use) someone trying to cram 17rds in a 15rd mag for example. If leaving mas loaded was a real problem, it would be widespread thru every L/E agency and in every part of the military. This is not the case.

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Old 10-25-2005, 01:41   #35
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http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/HurtSprings.htm
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Old 10-25-2005, 09:15   #36
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Borrowed from the Wolf Web site:

"Wolff Gun Springs (www.gunsprings.com) advises that so long as the spring is not compressed more than it's designed for, being compressed to that degree does not weaken it. He goes on to say that what "wears them out" is being used, i.e., compressed and then not compressed as would be the case in a pistol's mainspring when the gun is being fired and in a magazine as it's loaded and then emptied. In over 30 years of shooting Hi Powers, I have not had to replace the original mainspring in any of my Hi Powers."

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Old 10-25-2005, 12:36   #37
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Re: Funny

Quote:
[i]

The shooting community was bamboozled by a bunch of writers into thinking a spring could "take set," whatever that means. Let's allow this myth to die in peace. [/B]
Methinks the gun writers are merely the tip of the conspiracy iceberg here. They are merely shills for the evil corporate magazine-industrial complex. Yeah, that's the ticket. Follow the moolah - who benefits most from scaring us all into tossing our mags and buying new ones?

Huh? Anybody?

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Old 10-29-2005, 15:45   #38
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I took my old second generation Glock 19 (And original magazines), with 30K plus rounds through it/them, to a local Glock Gunsmith Guru and told him to inspect and replace as necessary. When I went back he had inspected, there was nothing to replace. When I asked about springs he told me some just seem to go on forever while others require replacement from time to time, go figure?

John
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Old 10-29-2005, 15:54   #39
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Re: Re: Funny

Quote:
Originally posted by oldcrow
Methinks the gun writers are merely the tip of the conspiracy iceberg here. They are merely shills for the evil corporate magazine-industrial complex. Yeah, that's the ticket. Follow the moolah - who benefits most from scaring us all into tossing our mags and buying new ones?

Huh? Anybody?

"The opinions expressed are my own, and do not reflect the views of any rational human being" ;b
If anyone is "tossing out" old mags, I will pick them up!!!

;N
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Old 11-03-2005, 16:03   #40
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Back in my Mil-Spec of the mid 80's, we came across some 1911 mags that were loaded and sealed in a tin. The date on the tin was 1965 (the year the ship I served on was officially released to duty). We opened the tin and took the mags out to the flightdeck with a couple of our .45's. Not a single jam in over 500 rounds. Those magazines are probably still feeding reliably today.

In 20 years of loaded condition there was no discernable problem with any of the magazines that were in that case. "Spring Set" is a myth best left in the dust.
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Old 11-04-2005, 18:46   #41
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what wears a spring down is constantly loading it and unloading it(basic physics of a spring...go figure) so it doesnt matter if the spring is stored loaded or unloaded, either will not wear down the spring
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Old 11-09-2005, 22:06   #42
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;a
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Old 11-13-2005, 20:42   #43
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Jeff Cooper (who may be unstable at this point hehe) reported in his back page Guns N Ammo article a few months back about sub gun I believe it was that had been stored since WW2 with the mags fully loaded and it fired just fine. I read that myself. He went on to say something about the extent to which our world relies on springs and how far they had come.
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Old 11-14-2005, 09:40   #44
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Magazine loading long term

When our LE people transitioned over to Glock, they were told that they should remove their ammunition every month and rteload it. Not because of magazine problems but becaiuse the spring pressure would deform the ammunition causinfg failure to feed.

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Old 11-14-2005, 11:37   #45
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Re: Magazine loading long term

Quote:
Originally posted by Moodle
When our LE people transitioned over to Glock, they were told that they should remove their ammunition every month and rteload it. Not because of magazine problems but becaiuse the spring pressure would deform the ammunition causinfg failure to feed.

Moodle
I'm not sure if I buy that one. I have no doubt thats what you were told but it is hard to believe. The pressure of the spring is fine for a while but over time it will slowly deform the ammo?? Hard to swallow, but then again anything is possible. Myself, I prefer to always keep my mags loaded and ready and keep a couple of new mags laid back in case there is a problem but in all my years of shooting/collecting firearms I have never had a problem with keeping my mags loaded.
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Old 11-14-2005, 11:51   #46
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Re: Magazine loading long term

Quote:
Originally posted by Moodle
When our LE people transitioned over to Glock, they were told that they should remove their ammunition every month and rteload it. Not because of magazine problems but becaiuse the spring pressure would deform the ammunition causinfg failure to feed.

Moodle
If the ammo is "deforming" in the mag, it is time to stop buying the "cheap" ammo!! LOL

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Old 11-14-2005, 15:59   #47
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Thanks for sharing your thoughts. My question now is then why do factory ParaOrdnance 45, factory HK USP 45, Glock 22 mag springs shorten when kept loaded for 6 months or more? Most of my CCW mags are usually the pick of the litter, fired a few times to test their reliability with factory ball and defense ammo, cleaned then relegated to CCW or home defense duty. But I've noticed that in the process of bi-annually cycling them into an IDPA/USPSA match I invariably end up with cycling problems, specifically stove pipes or FTF the last 1 or 2 rounds. Examining the mags yields springs a full inch shorter than new factory or wolff springs. You will notice that these are all double stack mags in question. On the other hand I never saw these with my single stack mags whatsoever?! I saved these deformed and shortened springs for a few years until I decided I really had no use for them save being a reminder. So now I read your post and references to the Am.HG mag and now I'm perplexed. I happen upon a posting from an engineer on the 1911 forums who comments;

"...My other post follows:

I am a Mechanical Engineer. I cringe every time Am Handgunner treads into the field of engineering. Journalists who don't know what they are talking about should consult someone who has actual technical training.

Creep does happen in ferritic materials.

Plastic deformation does happen in over compressed or over extended springs. The question is one of proper spring design and choice of the correct metallurgy. All of the generalizations in the Am Handgunner article have extremely common exceptions. All of those generalizations reflect "invincible ignorance" on the part of the writer.

Whenever I read this nonsense in Am Handgunner I think I should write a letter. Then I think why waste my time?

Ever wonder why your recoil spring gets shorter with use? It is because the spring design is such that whatever steel Wolff uses creeps or even yields under the cyclic compression loading. The metal MUST move for the spring to become shorter at rest. There's no other way it can happen. BTW that's ferritic material.

Ever wonder why this happens faster with a Wolff spring than it does with an IMSI spring? Because IMSI (or Nowlin) uses Cr-Si alloyed steel, which (as heat treated) has a higher yield strength than the Wolff metallurgy, so the Yield Strength of the material is much higher, and the creep process is much slower.

This is not a subject for simpletons looking for a one size fits all answer. In some mags the spring may be very lightly loaded, or overengineered. In others, the opposite may be the case. The ultimate answer is tied up in the interplay of spring loading and design criteria, combined with choice of metallurgy.

You would have to understand the design criteria for the mag (some are really hard on the spring because of how many rounds they're trying to jam in there with a really short follower). You will have to understand the metallurgy of the string. Was it heat treated right? How do you know? If strain hardened, did the spring maker draw the material right? How do you know? Do you even know that the material is certified at the claimed composition?

Notice how one poster said some springs have done fine, and others failed quickly? Probably a QC problem with spring metallurgy or heat treat. Inconsistent from batch to batch.

This is why aerospace and military manufacturers require "certifications" for metallurgy and heat treat. The answer changes completely based on little details.

That AH blurb was typical of the type of uninformed drivel that they've been printing lately. Ever since they went to the format that has several blurbs on a page, their reporting has gotten less and less in-depth, and more and more generalized. And in technical subjects, generalizations are for fools. It is a technical subject BECAUSE THE LITTLE THINGS MAKE A DIFFERENCE. But these guys are too ignorant to even know what the little things are. That stupid writer may get someone killed.

In the meantime I'll be sure there are fresh springs in my carry mags.

BTW the ultimate strength of metal in a spring is irrelevant. Ultimate strength is the loading where the metal comes apart. In a spring design you don't want to go over the yield strength (another concept that Am Handgunner got garbled up). The definition of yield strength is a bit complicated, but suffice it to say that it is the point where the metal begins to plastically deform. "Plastically deform" is engineer-talk for "bend"

For those interested in actual knowledge on the subject, find a copy of "Mechanical Engineering Design" by Shigley and Mitchell. In my 4th ed (1983), Chapter 10 is devoted to spring design. Chapter 4 includes a section on Creep, and section 4-5 details creep effects of time and temperature on ferritic materials.

Here's an idea. How about we take all of our questionable springs and send them to that writer so he can install them in his carry gun's mags? Maybe we should make the offer!.."


Though I profess NOT to be an engineer, I do come from a scientific background and I am more inclined to depend on quantitative data and experience together rather than unsubstantiated claims, assumptions and experience alone.
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Old 11-14-2005, 16:20   #48
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I thought I'd add a comment from Marc Cosat at ISMI on gun springs.

"...ISMI premium springs are manufactured exclusively with certified aerospace specification alloys; stainless or chrome silicon. Then our springs are heat treated, shot peened and stress relieved after winding to enhance performance and durability. Our springs utilize the same design and manufacturing technology as used in IndyCar and Formula One racing. In a typical 500 mile race, a valve spring in an IndyCar will go through more than 2,500,000 compression cycles. Consideration of factors such as modulus, wire diameter, mean diameter, active coils, total deflection, spring relaxation, maximum service temperature, and operating environment; results in you having modern spring technology available for your pistol.

Because of the properties of music wire; it cannot be heat treated, shot peened and stress relieved after the spring is wound. Additionally, music wire lacks consistency from bulk lot to bulk lot. This results in inconsistent performance from spring to spring. This is the same technology that was in use 90 years ago when John Browning designed the 1911 style pistol.

We believe that springs shouldnt be an ongoing worry or concern for the shooter. Springs should be an annual routine maintenance item. Change them once a year; go shoot and have fun..."
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Old 11-19-2005, 18:28   #49
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Wolff Springs FAQ

This from Wolff's website. Seems to contradict some observations some "experts" assert...

"...4. How often should I change my springs?

Wolff Gunsprings are made with the highest grade materials and workmanship. Most Wolff [recoil] springs will remain stable for many thousands of rounds. The performance of your gun is the best indicator of when a spring needs to be replaced. Factors such as increasing ejection distance, improper ejection and/or breaching, lighter hammer indents on primers, misfires, poor cartridge feeding from magazines, frequent jams, stove pipes and other malfunctions are all possible indications of fatigued springs or improper springs. Springs that are subject to higher stress applications such as magazine springs, striker springs and recoil springs will require more frequent replacement than other less stressed springs. Most Wolff recoil springs should be capable of 3000-5000 rounds minimum before changing is required. Some recoil springs in compact pistols, especially where dual springs are replaced by a single spring may require changing after 750 - 1500 rounds. Changes in your firearm's performance are one of the best indicators that a change is needed.




5. Should I unload my magazines, rotate magazines, load with fewer than the maximum rounds? How often should I change magazine springs?

Magazine springs in semi-auto pistols are one of the most critical springs and the subject of much debate and concern. Magazines which are kept fully loaded for long periods of time, such as law enforcement applications, will generally be subject to more fatigue than the weekend shooter's magazine springs which are loaded up only when shooting. Magazine design and capacity also affect the longevity of the spring. Older designs where maximum capacity was not the goal such as the 7 round 1911 Colt magazines will last for years fully loaded. There was a lot of room for a lot of spring which reduced the overall stress on the spring. In recent hi-capacity magazines, the magazines were designed to hold more rounds with less spring material. This puts more stress on the spring and will cause fatigue at a faster rate. Unloading these magazines a round or two will help the life of the spring. Rotating fully loaded magazines will also help the problem somewhat but is not always practical. In applications where the magazine must be kept loaded, a high quality magazine spring such as Wolff extra power magazine springs, will provide maximum life. Regular shooting will verify reliability and regular replacement of magazine springs will provide the best defense against failure from weak magazine springs..."

I personally have had to replace several Wolff springs. I admit most of my guns are hicap double stacks from 10-20 rounds in 40-45.
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Old 11-20-2005, 08:23   #50
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Original Glock springs

Once at the Glock factory (1985) in Austria, I was told that Glock did not manufacture their springs, but purchased from a sub contractor? Now make their own?

For years on the wall of my reloading cubby hole I kept a new G17 mag; spring that was next to one that was an inch shorter, an old one, I routinely changed springs when they lost that inch, but never remember a problem with this inch down. Did the same with firing pin springs.
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