[sneakyracer]

Originally posted by Bravo-Four
You whip this out, the BG might die from the amount of fecal matter that quickly lines his undertrousers, if not from one fatal shot to the pinkie toe

The Blast alone will blind him and knock him down!!

[pbass]

Originally posted by sneakyracer
The Blast alone will blind him and knock him down!!

A long time ago I read a review, in American Handgunner I believe, of the 2" Colt Trooper. The writer noted the horrendous blast and kick, but added that even if you missed, the burns would at least dissuade your opponent from continuing his aggression. Suppose you're close enough to touch your opponent with the muzzle? There is an excellent page somewhere with photos of what happens to vests that take contact shots. Really enlightening. And that's just what happens to the vest!

[kernal_panic]

Originally posted by turbonatr
I really understand that everyone out there wants to make the best possible choice they can about their carry choices, etc., but what it really boils down to is training. Worry more about putting those bullets where they need to be as accurately and as quickly as possible. 9mm, .357, .40, 10mm, .45acp...it's all the same. Pick a premium JHP of sufficient weight, functions 100% in your particular gun and get to the range!!

thats right. pick a gun and caliber you can shoot well, as long as its 10mm auto, and air condition the MFer.

[10mm4ever]

Originally posted by kernal_panic
thats right. pick a gun and caliber you can shoot well, as long as its 10mm auto, and air condition the MFer.

+1.

[kikr]

I've always stated that you shoot the BG untill he doesnt want to be shot anylonger.

[jsm190]

Suddenly I don't feel as safe with my .38 5 shot and no extra ammo. Wish it was easier to conceal one of my .40s and a spare mag down here in the summer.

[searcher]

Originally posted by jsm190
Suddenly I don't feel as safe with my .38 5 shot and no extra ammo. Wish it was easier to conceal one of my .40s and a spare mag down here in the summer.

Large open Hawaiian shirt over sleeveless t-shirt is not hot to wear and conceals anything, if you don't mind looking like a party animal all the time and knowing that many people may suspect you're packing. Just need to watch the wind blowing the shirt up to expose the gun. I've thought of attaching lead fishing weights to the bottom front shirt corners to stop the wind problem but haven't tried it yet.

[brownie]

pbass:

People get ill from bullets two ways.

Electrically---CNS hits and

Sudden loss of blood pressure from bleeding organs.

One shot stops at 60% from the S+M are what they are, I'll not involve myself in that debate, but your theoretical idea that second rounds have no more effect at getting people to stop is not correct.

I put three rounds into three different organs and three organs are not "leaking" and have the effect of getting the blood pressure to be reduced faster than three hits to one organ [ those perfect little groups people like to shoot for ].

Second and third, fourth, rds [ subsequent rds ]have a cumulative effect on the body. Punch a hole in a garden hose with an ice pick, it leaks [ reduces the pressure ] at a certain rate. Punch a second hole in the hose and the pressure drops twice as fast.

Faster, more rapid loss of blood pressure gets people to stop their agression faster [ the pump has a leak or two in it ].

If their adrenaline has kicked in with fight ot flight before being shot, the systolic pressure can remain artificially elevated for a short period of time, thereby keeping people up longer than would normally ocurr.

More holes/organs leaking? More rapid the loss of pressure and the faster the body reacts to that rapid loss by not working efficiently. The more holes, the less efficient we operate.

These facts are indisputable medically. More holes is better. A 60% ost from their data [ whether the study is valid or not ] increases as more rounds create more leaking.

Keep em coming till the pressure just can not sustain the pump [ the heart ] and the brain shuts down for lack of the pump giving oxygen to it.

Brownie

[keith56]

If 2 to the body do not work 2 to the head will. Shot placement is the key. Magic bullets and big bores are no substitute.

[pbass]

Originally posted by brownie
[B]pbass:

People get ill from bullets two ways.

Electrically---CNS hits and

Sudden loss of blood pressure from bleeding organs.

Might work for you, but I'm not smart enough to translate that into the many variations that might be seen in application. There is such an incredible difference between individuals and interplay between body systems in one individual, and so many combinations of circumstances and possible responses to the different kinds of trauma that a person may experience from just one specific round, that all I can do to make sense of it is to play the recorded odds.

[Snowman92D]

Originally posted by brownie
Keep em coming till the pressure just can not sustain the pump [ the heart ] and the brain shuts down for lack of the pump giving oxygen to it.

...and since that may take quite a while, try to find you some solid cover to get behind.

[AIVegas]

You can't simply rely upon pain to take down an attacker...there are three ways that bullets will stop an attacker, and they are as follows:
A.)Sever or destroy nerves vital for movement, i.e. shot to the spine or to the head.
B.)Cause enough blood loss to have said attacker pass out (best done by severing major arteries)
C.)Break a bone that's vital for aggressive movement, i.e. shot to the kneecap or shin.
Because of the stressful situation caused by someone attacking you, it's not a good plan to rely on having any of the above happen in one shot. That's why when there's one person attacking you and you draw a firearm, you should fire and continue firing until you are positive that the attacker is neutralized. Larger bullets will often tend to make options B and C happen faster, especially hollowpoints, since they increase the likelihood of severing something major and increase the amount of blood spilled. My point is, don't rely on pointing and pulling the trigger once...if you're to the point that you're in a gunfight, you had better plan on more than one shot per attacker.

[pbass]

Originally posted by keith56
Shot placement is the key.

Or as Bill Jordan used to say, "Get a bullet into your man." I'm repeating that here 'cause some view shot placement as something like choosing and hitting one of those little dots on an acupuncture chart.

[amd4me]

Originally posted by another okie
I've been shot twice in hunting accidents. One I didn't even feel, one hurt really, really badly. The one that hurt more was superficial, the one I didn't even feel was not superficial, to say the least.

Jesus , what happened man?

[myglockisa23]

There may not be a one drop caliber but the fact that the secret service uses the 357 sig to protect #1 should mean something for that caliber....

Aren't there several agencies that have recently dropped the 40 cal for the 357 sig? With the FBI using 10mm in the HK MP-5's... they seem to think bigger is better.

[gary newport]

Originally posted by myglockisa23
There may not be a one drop caliber but the fact that the secret service uses the 357 sig to protect #1 should mean something for that caliber....

Aren't there several agencies that have recently dropped the 40 cal for the 357 sig? With the FBI using 10mm in the HK MP-5's... they seem to think bigger is better.

10mm makes some sense in a subgun--but the FBI doesn't use it in handguns anymore.

[myglockisa23]

Correct.. they still use the G22 and some G23 along with certain agents and teams using different guns like the Springfield 45's.

[entropy]

Originally posted by Bits&Bytes
You know.. food for thought...

David killed Goliath with a single stone and a sling shot.

(not sure what caliber the stone was though...)

B&B

I thought he just knocked Goliath out and had to finish the job with a sword.

[blinddog]

Use the largest caliber you can shoot effectivly,and accuratly, use the heaviest bullet that, is reliable in your chosen firearm, empty it.in the largest part of the body, sounds like the same stuff I have been saying for years

[brownie]

Might work for you, but I'm not smart enough to translate that into the many variations that might be seen in application.

Perhaps this will be easier for you to comprehend.

"Keep em coming" would mean you are [ hiding behind you bullets ] till he succumbs to them. You know anyone who can continue to take rounds at 3 per second and return fire?

I don't know anyone who returns fire while taking 3-4 per second into their body, no one. That covers about any situation you'll need to remember. Put em in them, and keep it up till they go down. It's a very simple concept.

Hiding behind your bullets is a technique that works, it also helps to put them into them at the same time. Splits run anywhere from .21-.25, thats 3-4 per second at the minimum.

Or as Bill Jordan used to say, "Get a bullet into your man."

Good advice from one who knew the real world.

Brownie

[HILLSIDEBLUE]

In 1972 I had to shoot and kill a guy that was attacking me with the bumper jack from a car..........

I shot him once in the chest with an old fashioned, round nose, 158 grain, .38 special........That was what my department issued.....

The fact that I had the training to hit the guy in the right place was the trick to survive the attack.......

I now carry .40 caliber 180 grain loads, but I know that if the shot doesn't hit the right spot, the size of the slug doesn't matter at all..........

Practice, Practice, Practice............

If your grab, point and squeeze becomes second nature to you, you can survive a similar attack..........

It's your responsibility to be the very best shooter you can be.....

Originally posted by HILLSIDEBLUE
In 1972 I had to shoot and kill a guy that was attacking me with the bumper jack from a car..........

I shot him once in the chest with an old fashioned, round nose, 158 grain, .38 special........That was what my department issued.....

The fact that I had the training to hit the guy in the right place was the trick to survive the attack.......

I now carry .40 caliber 180 grain loads, but I know that if the shot doesn't hit the right spot, the size of the slug doesn't matter at all..........

Practice, Practice, Practice............

If your grab, point and squeeze becomes second nature to you, you can survive a similar attack..........

It's your responsibility to be the very best shooter you can be.....

True but better performing calibers give you a better chance of a faster stop.More exp/pen is always a plus.
MOHAA

[10mm4ever]

Good posting Mohaa. Go with the most powerful platform you can handle with proficiency. Evan Marshall has shown one documented case where a fellon died instantly from a .44 mag. to the knee! Dont give in to the overpenetration paranoia either. The FBI has only 1 documented case in the last 30 years where a bullet that penetrated through its intended target actually caused harm to another. Also, LEO's miss their intended target 88% of the time, and civilians miss about 1/2 as much, so the fear of overpenetration is a MOOT point. The more damage and trauma you can cause with each shot that you connect with will further increase the potential to end the threat in short order which in turn increases the odds of saving lives. Shouldnt that be the #1 goal??? The .40 has been outstanding and I would expect that same excellent performance, as a minimum from the 10mm with its better loadings.

[10mm4ever]

Originally posted by gary newport
10mm makes some sense in a subgun--but the FBI doesn't use it in handguns anymore.

Sorry Gary, but that seems like backwards logic to me. In a sub-gun that can dump out 600 rpm's(that's 10 rounds per sec.), I would think that caliber becomes less important. I would think that with a semi-auto, the power level becomes more important, as you are attempting to "turn off the switch" with one round at a time, not a burst.

[Tiel Raptor]

Originally posted by pbass
Or as Bill Jordan used to say, "Get a bullet into your man." I'm repeating that here 'cause some view shot placement as something like choosing and hitting one of those little dots on an acupuncture chart.

What does the "rule" say..."If you are using proper two handed shooting stance, then you aren't running for cover!"

In a real world shooting, and I've only "studied" these, i haven't seen alot of shooters standing and shooting. They have been backing up, running like hell away, or hunkerd down behind cover (the BEST place in my book).

So, I would want a weapon and caliber combo (with cheese) that I can shoot with one hand quickly and accurately.

Jerry