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Old 01-13-2006, 15:51   #141
B_Easy
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Quote:
Originally posted by Derringer
That's it, avoid the subject of performance. Just resort to personal attacks.
If you don't have anything to say except cliches and parroting the same things over and over again not many useful ideas can be gleaned.
RBCD is NOT the answer to all shooting scenarios.
I carry gold dots and black hills 124+p for certain things in addition to RBCD.

The small arms munition market is worth 3 BILLION plus currently,
and some of that money goes to the "experts". when companies hand out money a few tend to agree with big guys to keep on the gravy train.

I've yet to see what's different about it.

The animal tests I've seen show that it's regular old high velocity low weight ammo.

By the way, the #'s listed on the website are FALSE

The penetration depths reflect the round in gel, where it doesn't fragment, while the cavity diameters reflect the round in animal tests, where it DOES fragment, but doesn't penetrate due to little retained mass.

In other words, they're tying together two separate tests to make their ammo seem worthwhile.

Of course it looks like it works, the wounds are massive in diameter, but the depth of them is less than impressive.
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Old 01-13-2006, 17:28   #142
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i don't know what works.

but i guess as careful as i can.

my personal choice is medium power, low recoil, and a long barrel.

in other words, something that shoots straight. repeatedly.

and 'shoot it dry' ..

and 'CNS if convenient' ..

better ideas welcomed.
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Old 01-16-2006, 09:14   #143
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Re: SOMETIMES 223 fmj does well

Quote:
Originally posted by Ragnar D.
Often, however, it does not. Not in flesh, anyway. What it does in jello is irrelevant, despite the claims of the lazy and the ignorant. There is no reason to risk using fmj bullets, and the 223 softpoint is both more destructive and more reliable in its effect, to longer ranges, and out of shorter barrels. Besides, the 223 is not the issue here. Handguns are the issue, and I agree that the velocities shown by the 10mm RBCD ammo shows what can be achieved. I did not say that I favored their style of bullet. I said that 70-80 gr bullets can be driven to 2300-2400 fps in 5" barrels with the 10mm. Now watch somebody (who can't read) explain all about how the RBCD bullet is no good. Make that lightweight bullet out of solid copper and have it be split lengthwise, like the QuikShok bullet. No, such a bullet is not illegal, either. Hit some animals with it, and you will see that it performs just like the 223 softpoint, which is to say, quite dramatically.

What cops have to do and what civilians can get away with are not the same things. If you had beat Rodney King silly with a nightstick, you'd have served 5+ years in the penitentiary.
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Old 01-16-2006, 10:08   #144
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Quote:
Originally posted by searcher
Actually, the theory is right. It just doesn't lead to a "knockdown effect" in this case because the "collision" is between a bullet and a soft target. It is a little more apparent in the sport of silhouette shooting where large steel plate animals are knocked over by bullets. In fact, Newton's famous 2nd law commonly stated as "Net Force = mass x acceleration" was originally stated by Newton as "Net Force = (mass x change in velocity) / time" in the special case where the mass is a constant, as in a moving bullet. The term in parentheses is called "impulse" in physics. In words it says that "resultant force equals the time rate of change of momentum." As the time of the interaction approaches zero the force approaches infinity. In other words, the faster the momentum changes, the greater the force.

Another example is the difference in the "kick" felt when you shoot a +p+ round versus a standard pressure round of the same bullet weight out of the same gun. The bullet in the +p+ round gets to any given velocity in less time than the standard velocity round while travelling down the barrel . Same change in momentum in less time yields more felt "kick" or force. Newton's 3rd law about equal and opposite reactions doesn't really explain anything about what happens when the bullet hits the target. The fact that the gun doesn't knock you over doesn't mean diddly. What happens when the bullet is in the barrel and when it hits the target are completely separate events. His second law tells the story, especially in the form he originally used. Sorry to get so technical. The point of my post was to say that even though "knock-down force" from a handgun used for self defense is theoretically possible it can't happen in practice. A reference for the theory is Engineering Mechanics Volume 2: Dynamics fourth edition by J.L. Meriam pages 191-192.
Think of the "knock-down" effect as the work done on the target by the bullet instead of the instantaneous force (delta function, for which the integral over dt is zero)applied to the target.

P.S. Mythbusters is cool
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Old 02-06-2006, 12:33   #145
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I know of someone who died from a "lucky" shot.

it was a .38 FMJ that hit his chest, then the spinal chord, and bounced back to pierce the heart.

he dropped dead right there and then.

personally, i'd rather shoot the guy until he's dead but in the case of multiple assailants and you find yourself with limited ammo, that may not apply.

Imho, i'd rather intimidate the rest by shooting the nearest guy. if that fails it'll be my day in hell.

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Old 02-06-2006, 19:22   #146
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Quote:
Originally posted by Pr1nc3_Prince

if that fails it'll be my day in hell.

I think anyway who goes into a life or death struggle with only a pistol would be wise to keep this in mind!

Sure you may drop 'em with one shot, or you may empty a whole mag into them and still get killed. It's always a crap shoot and sometimes the dice come up snake-eyes.
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Old 02-07-2006, 18:26   #147
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Dont worry, as soon as glock figures out how to make its recoiless .308 pistol we will finally be saved.
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Old 02-08-2006, 07:11   #148
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Originally posted by Bravo-Four
Dont worry, as soon as glock figures out how to make its recoiless .308 pistol we will finally be saved.
i doubt it.

your problem would be over-penetration and legislation, which i beleive is a bigger problem than handguns.

i'd prefer the recoil-less handgun using SHELLS!

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Old 02-13-2006, 17:49   #149
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Re: "collage?"

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Originally posted by utahglock
So we accepting a "collage" as a way to destroy a myth? Sounds intellecually silly and lazy to me.

I've never advocated shooting only once-the one shot stop whether you agree or not is simply a unit of measurement.

Evan
Yep it's a unit of measurement that measures which unit is so narrow as to be unuseable except for measuring things you already know the outcome of and the certain circumstances surrounding it.

It's like saying every time I play checkers on even numbered days against the cat where I'm the "red" checkers I win 87% of the time.

It has no utility except in describing those certain circumstances.
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Old 02-13-2006, 17:55   #150
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Quote:
Originally posted by searcher
Not trying to be a physics geek here but Newton's laws do allow for a small body in motion to knock down a larger object it hits, even if an equally sized object that was free to topple over (but didn't) was holding the "particle projector" that imparted the motion to the projectile. The key is the time it takes the projectile to "dump" (transfer) its energy to the target (described in physics by the term "impulse")in a collision. The other thing that influences this is the "hardness" of the projectile and the target (coefficient of restitution). Intuitively this makes sense with the example of catching a fast moving ball. If we catch the ball by moving it back while we catch it (increasing the "catching time") the force we feel will be less than if we catch it with a stiff hand(stings like hell!). This is the same thing that lets a martial artist break bricks with his bare hand, even though a man can lift much less weight on a bench press than it would take to collapse a brick designed to hold the weight of buildings.

So all you need to do is shoot a guy holding a thick glass block (glass has a very high "coefficient of restitution") up snuggly to his forehead with a large caliber wadcutter made of hardened steel to knock him down. Otherwise it is not likely.
No handgun round has enough momentum to knock down a human being. Unless they're off balance. Hell, a 12ga slug doesn't have enough momentum even if all the "energy is expended into the target."

Try again.
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Old 02-13-2006, 18:02   #151
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Re: The 10mm to the arm can shatter the bone

Quote:
Originally posted by glug
and that can be very debilitating, indeed. The luck hit to his arm is the only thing that stopped Platt from killing all 8 of the Feds with his Mini-14 that day in Miami. So it depends upon what you claim is "marginal" hit. The 10mm jhp to the gut will be a LOT more likely to stop a man than a 9mm ball rd to the lung, for instance. It just has a lot more pain, shock, and so on for the guy to try to overcome with his adrenalin. Not everyone has the same level of desperation-adrenalin as the worst case scenarios.
It wasn't 9mm ball. It was a 9mm Silvertip that didn't penetrate 12 inches and reach the heart. Penetration, not wound channel diameter, was the key to that failure.
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Old 02-13-2006, 18:32   #152
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we can all either do the math, or find a

high school student to do it for us.

the energy at the muzzle = the energy at the target + the energy lost to friction between the muzzle and the target.. and as it doesn't knock YOU over, there ought to be a clue it won't necessarily knock them over either.

now, knockdown power. well, a double twelve has that, i got knocked down firing one both barrels once. big bruise, knocked me on my butt.

so, i'd figure a double twelve has knockdown power at the other end too. that's about 4000 lbs muzzle energy, thereabouts.

that's about like a 30.06 and a bit.. say, a .338 maybe.

that's knockdown power.
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Old 02-13-2006, 19:35   #153
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I think what most people are mistakenly calling "knock-down-power" is actually the reflexive action of pulling away from extreme pain. Just as your body pulls away from a hot stove when it's burned, it lunges away from the pain of bullet tearing into it.

This would also explain why someone intoxicated or pumped up on adrenalin doesn't react as violently to being shot. They simply aren't feeling any pain.
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Old 02-14-2006, 14:40   #154
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My Glock 20 and 29 don't recoil bad at all.
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Old 02-14-2006, 15:03   #155
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Re: Re: The 10mm to the arm can shatter the bone

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Originally posted by dport
It wasn't 9mm ball. It was a 9mm Silvertip that didn't penetrate 12 inches and reach the heart. Penetration, not wound channel diameter, was the key to that failure.
Too late dport, glug (aka: gunkid) got banned 3 months ago shortly after he re-registered. ;f
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Old 02-14-2006, 17:46   #156
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Re: we can all either do the math, or find a

Quote:
Originally posted by mitchshrader
high school student to do it for us.

the energy at the muzzle = the energy at the target + the energy lost to friction between the muzzle and the target.. and as it doesn't knock YOU over, there ought to be a clue it won't necessarily knock them over either.

now, knockdown power. well, a double twelve has that, i got knocked down firing one both barrels once. big bruise, knocked me on my butt.

so, i'd figure a double twelve has knockdown power at the other end too. that's about 4000 lbs muzzle energy, thereabouts.

that's about like a 30.06 and a bit.. say, a .338 maybe.

that's knockdown power.
Amen, Mitch, amen, preach it brother!

Handgun ammo energy is too small to be a factor!
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Old 02-14-2006, 20:41   #157
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Re: Re: Re: The 10mm to the arm can shatter the bone

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Originally posted by hawk
Too late dport, glug (aka: gunkid) got banned 3 months ago shortly after he re-registered. ;f
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Old 02-20-2006, 18:10   #158
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Can't say it enough...handguns SUCK at stopping people!
And they always will. The movie industry has injured and killed more people with other misconceptions..."One shot, and he flew through the air." UH HUH We carry handguns because they are portable, not because they are powerful.

The attempt to use the one shot stop as a unit of measure is STATISTICAL analysis. Humans are not math problems, that's why they win medals for gallantry, heroism, or ignoring their own extreme peril in combat. Turn that around and use that energy in a felonious way....hmmmmmm.
People do the unexpected most of the time, that includes when you are trying to stop their behavior with a gun.
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Old 02-23-2006, 09:42   #159
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You know.. food for thought...

David killed Goliath with a single stone and a sling shot.

(not sure what caliber the stone was though...)

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Old 02-23-2006, 20:13   #160
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Here's an interesting story from Massad Ayoob.


More than 10 years ago, my friend Mark Seiden called me in on a murder case in Miami that Janet Reno, then State’s Attorney for the county in question, had ordered prosecuted. A woman named Mary Hopkin had killed her common law husband, a man named James Yarolem.

James was in his forties. Mary was 63. Her life had been hard, and when she found a younger man who convinced her he loved her, she took him into her home. This did not turn out to be a wise decision.

Mary worked. Jim didn’t. He drank and smoked up all the money she brought in. He abused her, with the classic escalation. First, verbal derisiveness. Then the shove with the palm. Then the slap of the open hand. Then the blow of the closed fist. The time came when she confronted him and said, “Jim, you drink all my beer, and you smoke all my cigarettes, and you won’t get a job, and … I think it’s time you left.” Even then, being in the classic denial pattern of a battered significant other, she couldn’t bring herself to say, “Oh, and by the way, you beat the crap out of me whenever you feel like it.”

She didn’t need to say it. Jim didn’t handle her declaration well. He began to beat her up with more vigor than before. She went to call the police, and Jim ripped the telephone out of the wall, wrapped the phone cord around her neck, and strangled her unconscious. He left her for dead and went off to the nearest bar. When Mary awoke, she crawled—she couldn’t walk on her arthritic and aging legs, she crawled—to the nearest trailer to hers and when she got there blurted, “Call the police.”

The cops arrived. When Jim came back Metro-Dade officers were there. They arrested him. When they dragged him away, the cops testified later, he was screaming “Mary, you f---in’ *****, I’ll kill you for this!”

Very soon thereafter, he was out on bail and he came to make good his threat. By now, Mary was in terror of him, and had borrowed from her son the cheapest revolver available, an RG .22. The RG is the gun that Handgun Control Inc. is trying to talk about when they rail on about “Saturday Night Specials.” If you left it on a hot stove it might melt.

Jim pounded on the door like the big bad wolf. “Mary, let me in!” “Jim,” she answered, “I know what you’re going to do! I have a gun! I won’t let you kill me! Go away! Don’t make me shoot you!”

He didn’t listen. He smashed the door off its hinges and came at her, and she fired three shots. All three .22 bullets hit him. He turned and ran, got about 20 feet, and collapsed and died. To make a long story short, she was charged with murder.

http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles/ayoob62.html


The officer in the original post couldn't stop the BG with his service caliber weapon, but a little old lady with a .22 did drop the BG. It just goes to show there's no real rhyme or reason to most shooting incidents.
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