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Old 02-13-2006, 17:02   #151
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Re: The 10mm to the arm can shatter the bone

Quote:
Originally posted by glug
and that can be very debilitating, indeed. The luck hit to his arm is the only thing that stopped Platt from killing all 8 of the Feds with his Mini-14 that day in Miami. So it depends upon what you claim is "marginal" hit. The 10mm jhp to the gut will be a LOT more likely to stop a man than a 9mm ball rd to the lung, for instance. It just has a lot more pain, shock, and so on for the guy to try to overcome with his adrenalin. Not everyone has the same level of desperation-adrenalin as the worst case scenarios.
It wasn't 9mm ball. It was a 9mm Silvertip that didn't penetrate 12 inches and reach the heart. Penetration, not wound channel diameter, was the key to that failure.
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Old 02-13-2006, 17:32   #152
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we can all either do the math, or find a

high school student to do it for us.

the energy at the muzzle = the energy at the target + the energy lost to friction between the muzzle and the target.. and as it doesn't knock YOU over, there ought to be a clue it won't necessarily knock them over either.

now, knockdown power. well, a double twelve has that, i got knocked down firing one both barrels once. big bruise, knocked me on my butt.

so, i'd figure a double twelve has knockdown power at the other end too. that's about 4000 lbs muzzle energy, thereabouts.

that's about like a 30.06 and a bit.. say, a .338 maybe.

that's knockdown power.
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Old 02-13-2006, 18:35   #153
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I think what most people are mistakenly calling "knock-down-power" is actually the reflexive action of pulling away from extreme pain. Just as your body pulls away from a hot stove when it's burned, it lunges away from the pain of bullet tearing into it.

This would also explain why someone intoxicated or pumped up on adrenalin doesn't react as violently to being shot. They simply aren't feeling any pain.
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Old 02-14-2006, 13:40   #154
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My Glock 20 and 29 don't recoil bad at all.
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Old 02-14-2006, 14:03   #155
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Re: Re: The 10mm to the arm can shatter the bone

Quote:
Originally posted by dport
It wasn't 9mm ball. It was a 9mm Silvertip that didn't penetrate 12 inches and reach the heart. Penetration, not wound channel diameter, was the key to that failure.
Too late dport, glug (aka: gunkid) got banned 3 months ago shortly after he re-registered. ;f
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Old 02-14-2006, 16:46   #156
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Re: we can all either do the math, or find a

Quote:
Originally posted by mitchshrader
high school student to do it for us.

the energy at the muzzle = the energy at the target + the energy lost to friction between the muzzle and the target.. and as it doesn't knock YOU over, there ought to be a clue it won't necessarily knock them over either.

now, knockdown power. well, a double twelve has that, i got knocked down firing one both barrels once. big bruise, knocked me on my butt.

so, i'd figure a double twelve has knockdown power at the other end too. that's about 4000 lbs muzzle energy, thereabouts.

that's about like a 30.06 and a bit.. say, a .338 maybe.

that's knockdown power.
Amen, Mitch, amen, preach it brother!

Handgun ammo energy is too small to be a factor!
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Old 02-14-2006, 19:41   #157
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Re: Re: Re: The 10mm to the arm can shatter the bone

Quote:
Originally posted by hawk
Too late dport, glug (aka: gunkid) got banned 3 months ago shortly after he re-registered. ;f
I missed a Gunkid sighting. I always miss the fun.:(










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Old 02-20-2006, 17:10   #158
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Can't say it enough...handguns SUCK at stopping people!
And they always will. The movie industry has injured and killed more people with other misconceptions..."One shot, and he flew through the air." UH HUH We carry handguns because they are portable, not because they are powerful.

The attempt to use the one shot stop as a unit of measure is STATISTICAL analysis. Humans are not math problems, that's why they win medals for gallantry, heroism, or ignoring their own extreme peril in combat. Turn that around and use that energy in a felonious way....hmmmmmm.
People do the unexpected most of the time, that includes when you are trying to stop their behavior with a gun.
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Old 02-23-2006, 08:42   #159
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You know.. food for thought...

David killed Goliath with a single stone and a sling shot.

(not sure what caliber the stone was though...)

B&B
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Old 02-23-2006, 19:13   #160
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Here's an interesting story from Massad Ayoob.


More than 10 years ago, my friend Mark Seiden called me in on a murder case in Miami that Janet Reno, then State’s Attorney for the county in question, had ordered prosecuted. A woman named Mary Hopkin had killed her common law husband, a man named James Yarolem.

James was in his forties. Mary was 63. Her life had been hard, and when she found a younger man who convinced her he loved her, she took him into her home. This did not turn out to be a wise decision.

Mary worked. Jim didn’t. He drank and smoked up all the money she brought in. He abused her, with the classic escalation. First, verbal derisiveness. Then the shove with the palm. Then the slap of the open hand. Then the blow of the closed fist. The time came when she confronted him and said, “Jim, you drink all my beer, and you smoke all my cigarettes, and you won’t get a job, and … I think it’s time you left.” Even then, being in the classic denial pattern of a battered significant other, she couldn’t bring herself to say, “Oh, and by the way, you beat the crap out of me whenever you feel like it.”

She didn’t need to say it. Jim didn’t handle her declaration well. He began to beat her up with more vigor than before. She went to call the police, and Jim ripped the telephone out of the wall, wrapped the phone cord around her neck, and strangled her unconscious. He left her for dead and went off to the nearest bar. When Mary awoke, she crawled—she couldn’t walk on her arthritic and aging legs, she crawled—to the nearest trailer to hers and when she got there blurted, “Call the police.”

The cops arrived. When Jim came back Metro-Dade officers were there. They arrested him. When they dragged him away, the cops testified later, he was screaming “Mary, you f---in’ *****, I’ll kill you for this!”

Very soon thereafter, he was out on bail and he came to make good his threat. By now, Mary was in terror of him, and had borrowed from her son the cheapest revolver available, an RG .22. The RG is the gun that Handgun Control Inc. is trying to talk about when they rail on about “Saturday Night Specials.” If you left it on a hot stove it might melt.

Jim pounded on the door like the big bad wolf. “Mary, let me in!” “Jim,” she answered, “I know what you’re going to do! I have a gun! I won’t let you kill me! Go away! Don’t make me shoot you!”

He didn’t listen. He smashed the door off its hinges and came at her, and she fired three shots. All three .22 bullets hit him. He turned and ran, got about 20 feet, and collapsed and died. To make a long story short, she was charged with murder.

http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles/ayoob62.html


The officer in the original post couldn't stop the BG with his service caliber weapon, but a little old lady with a .22 did drop the BG. It just goes to show there's no real rhyme or reason to most shooting incidents.
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Old 04-03-2006, 15:54   #161
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^^^ what was the outcome of this trial? I REALLY hope they didn't convict this poor lady...


EDIT: Nevermind... She had no money. Mark Seiden, her attorney, took her case anyway. Mark was a former homicide cop for Metro-Dade before he became a lawyer. I did what he did, after he called me. I took the case pro bono, at no charge. After I spent an hour with Mark on direct examination explaining to the jury why she had no choice but to shoot, I took out the prosecutor in a little less than a minute of cross examination. The jury was quick, too: they took about two hours to acquit her of all charges.


Sweet
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Old 04-05-2006, 19:13   #162
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This case is living proof of the old saying,
"it's better to be judged by twelve, than carried by six"!
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Old 04-05-2006, 19:29   #163
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It's also makes these silly caliber arguments seem quite moot, no?



Be safe.
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Old 04-05-2006, 20:51   #164
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true!

turbonatr,
you are so right! We always seem to hear more stories about little 22's killing people than the big, honkin 45's do. Or 9's, 40's, etc.
And with a little junk gun at that!
Cheers,
og
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Old 04-05-2006, 21:41   #165
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Quote:
Originally posted by turbonatr
It's also makes these silly caliber arguments seem quite moot, no?



Be safe.
Precisely!

Whatever you carry, learn to shoot it and empty the mag when you're in danger!
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Old 04-05-2006, 21:41   #166
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The most famous .22 killing was the Officer Coates incident.



In November 1992, South Carolina Highway Patrolman Mark Coates shot an attacker four times in the torso with his 4 inch Smith & Wesson .357 Magnum revolver. His attacker, an obese adult male who weighed almost 300 pounds, absorbed the hits and shortly thereafter returned fire with one shot from a single-action North American Arms .22 caliber mini-revolver. Coates was fatally wounded when the tiny bullet perforated his left upper arm and penetrated his chest through the armhole of his vest where the bullet cut a major artery. Coates, who was standing next to the passenger-side front fender of the assailant's car when he was hit by the fatal bullet, was very quickly incapacitated.

After Coates was hit, he immediately ran several feet, scrambling around the front of the assailant's car while simultaneously radioing dispatch that he'd been shot. As he neared the driver's-side front fender he suddenly collapsed onto the pavement.

Trooper Coates fired four 145 grain Winchester Silvertip .357 Magnum bullets directly into his assailant's heavy abdomen, achieving solid hits with each. These particular bullets penetrate deeper than 125 grain JHPs, however none ruptured any vital cardiovascular structures. During the initial ground struggle, Coates was shot twice, but his vest protected him. After fighting off his attacker, Coates quickly climbed to his feet and emptied his revolver. At that particular moment the assailant was still lying on the ground. The combination of the assailant's obesity and the unusual angle at which the bullets entered his body worked to the disadvantage of Trooper Coates.

The Coates shooting exemplifies the fable of energy transfer, especially when encountering a determined attacker. The .357 Magnum cartridge is regarded by many as the ultimate manstopper; a true one-shot stop wonder. The Winchester 145 grain .357 Magnum cartridge is given a one-shot stopping power rating of 86 percent by Marshall and Sanow. According to this rating system, a single hit ANYWHERE in the torso is supposed to be highly effective in stopping an attacker, regardless of whether or not the bullet destroys vital tissue. But on this night, it failed FOUR TIMES! The assailant easily absorbed four bullets in his body, each delivering over 450 foot pounds of kinetic energy. This is equivalent to being hit four times by a baseball going approximately 210 miles per hour.


None of Coates' powerful .357 Magnum bullets were effective, but the bad guy's weak .22 caliber bullet was. The .357 Magnum bullets dumped all their energy into the attacker, whereas the single .22 caliber bullet disrupted vital tissue. The assailant survived the shooting, was convicted of murdering Coates and was sentenced to life in prison.


http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs3.htm


I don't know if the .22 was a "junk" gun or not,
but it certainly worked as advertised, once again.
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Old 04-06-2006, 08:12   #167
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The 145 gr. Silvertips are definately NOT my choice for my .357. They are indeed a "watered down" version.
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Old 04-06-2006, 09:22   #168
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As opposed to those high-powered .22s the BG was using.
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Old 04-06-2006, 11:18   #169
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Factory 145gr. Silvertips exit my 4" GP 100 at around 1350fps. Since you're a muzzle energy guy, that's nearly 600fpe. Hardly watered down. If this load didn't put that BG down, I find it hard to believe any other load would have given the same shot placement.
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Old 04-06-2006, 14:09   #170
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There was a lot of things that went wrong for the Trooper. He should have keyed in on what the subject was saying rather than just going through his praticed speal so he could get a consent search. The perp pretty much gave away something was up and that he was armed.

He also should have not been so quick on the radio. He should have waited till he knew the perp was no longer a threat. The fatal shot came when he was keying his mike calling for help. We just reviewed the shooting recently in a class I attented dealing with officer survival.
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Old 04-07-2006, 20:03   #171
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I carry speer Gold Dot 158 HJP. in my .357

but I think that fat guy just got luckey.
in both his shot placement and in his wounds.
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Old 04-08-2006, 11:55   #172
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Unfortuneatly Trooper Coates made a list of tactical errors.

Searching a suspect who wasn't handcuffed, searching the suspect from the front (the "kick me" position), he even had both of his own hands in the suspects pockets while standing right in front of him.

This was just the beggining of a string of mistakes.

This is a good example that having a powerfull weapon and good marksmanship are not enough to save your life. Mindset and tactics must come first.

(Note-I referred to the murderer as "suspect" because thats all he was to Mr. Coates at that time)

Mr. Coates murder has certainly saved the lives of many Police Officers and will continue to do so as long as we keep discussing it.
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Old 04-20-2006, 13:15   #173
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However, the fact largely remains that bullet placement, rather than caliber, causes immediate stop-page of body functions in most instances.
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Old 04-20-2006, 18:58   #174
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Placing one shot on an armed assailant is asking for trouble. That being said, shot placement is the most critical aspect.

Displace and shoot until you are no longer threatened.
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Old 04-20-2006, 20:21   #175
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