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Old 11-23-2005, 21:50   #126
searcher
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Re: I'd say it depends on what you call a rifle rd.

Quote:
Originally posted by print
There are 10mm loads that match the 223 softpoint in effectiveness, and the 223 has an awesome stopping record. Nobody is stuck with the silly fmj load. The military "ball" bullet (in all calibers) is uniformly acknowledged as being inhumane for taking deer, because it usually lets them run for 100 yds or more after being chest hit by such a load...

Take a look at the terminal performance of the "silly fmj" .223

http://www.firearmstactical.com/pagea18.htm

It looks like a hollowed out little 5" long football with about a 3" large diameter starting about 4" deep (large wound cavity from 4-9" deep). Looks like it would hurt!

Last edited by searcher; 11-23-2005 at 22:01..
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Old 11-27-2005, 12:36   #127
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Just affirms my contention that all the caliber wars that exist online are pretty silly. A cool head and proficiency with the firearm you're carrying far, far outweigh the difference between a 9mm, .40, and .45.
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Old 11-27-2005, 13:52   #128
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exactly!

well said, G. Glock. Caliber wars are meaningless and just there for our entertainment, which includes all the OSS stuff.
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Old 11-30-2005, 14:29   #129
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SOMETIMES 223 fmj does well

Often, however, it does not. Not in flesh, anyway. What it does in jello is irrelevant, despite the claims of the lazy and the ignorant. There is no reason to risk using fmj bullets, and the 223 softpoint is both more destructive and more reliable in its effect, to longer ranges, and out of shorter barrels. Besides, the 223 is not the issue here. Handguns are the issue, and I agree that the velocities shown by the 10mm RBCD ammo shows what can be achieved. I did not say that I favored their style of bullet. I said that 70-80 gr bullets can be driven to 2300-2400 fps in 5" barrels with the 10mm. Now watch somebody (who can't read) explain all about how the RBCD bullet is no good. Make that lightweight bullet out of solid copper and have it be split lengthwise, like the QuikShok bullet. No, such a bullet is not illegal, either. Hit some animals with it, and you will see that it performs just like the 223 softpoint, which is to say, quite dramatically.

What cops have to do and what civilians can get away with are not the same things. If you had beat Rodney King silly with a nightstick, you'd have served 5+ years in the penitentiary.

Last edited by Ragnar D.; 11-30-2005 at 14:40..
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Old 11-30-2005, 14:47   #130
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Re: SOMETIMES 223 fmj does well

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Originally posted by Ragnar D.
Often, however, it does not. Not in flesh, anyway. What it does in jello is irrelevant, despite the claims of the lazy and the ignorant. There is no reason to risk using fmj bullets, and the 223 softpoint is both more destructive and more reliable in its effect, to longer ranges, and out of shorter barrels. Besides, the 223 is not the issue here. Handguns are the issue, and I agree that the velocities shown by the 10mm RBCD ammo shows what can be achieved. I did not say that I favored their style of bullet. I said that 70-80 gr bullets can be driven to 2300-2400 fps in 5" barrels with the 10mm. Now watch somebody (who can't read) explain all about how the RBCD bullet is no good. Make that lightweight bullet out of solid copper and have it be split lengthwise, like the QuikShok bullet. No, such a bullet is not illegal, either. Hit some animals with it, and you will see that it performs just like the 223 softpoint, which is to say, quite dramatically.

What cops have to do and what civilians can get away with are not the same things. If you had beat Rodney King silly with a nightstick, you'd have served 5+ years in the penitentiary.
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Old 12-02-2005, 20:46   #131
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Re: Re: SOMETIMES 223 fmj does well

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Originally posted by 355sigfan
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Interesting, this is his first post and he's discovered already.
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Old 12-03-2005, 02:58   #132
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Re: Re: Re: SOMETIMES 223 fmj does well

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Originally posted by Navy HMC
Interesting, this is his first post and he's discovered already.
You just can't miss him, he's very easy to spot.
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Old 12-05-2005, 14:07   #133
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Quote:
Originally posted by G. Glock
Just affirms my contention that all the caliber wars that exist online are pretty silly. A cool head and proficiency with the firearm you're carrying far, far outweigh the difference between a 9mm, .40, and .45.
I think some who participate in these arguments are providing great information to support several differnt types of view. Others though are probably looking to read opinions that support their own because caliber choice appears to be such a sensitive issue. I would probably advise someone who asked "which caliber" to make their choice and then avoid this forum.

If the statistics I've read from John Lott are accurate then a CCW holder has an excellent chance of surviving a would-be attack from a turd simply by letting the turd know that he has a gun. Of those who would risk getting shot to attack a gun-holder, many stop once they're shot, regardless of the caliber of ammunition or type of gun used (according the FBI Wounding Ballistics .pdf that I've seen linked around here). If that also is true then simply having a gun and the ability to shoot an attacker if necessary gives the defender an excellent chance of success in a confrontation. It's not even until someone is unfortunate enough to face the small number of determined attackers left who won't stop until they're forced to do so that shot-placement and caliber even become an issue.

It seems to me that once someone can settle on a caliber that has proven to penetrate adequately, the differences in the ballistics of the calibers that qualify might not outweigh the other factors such as ability to shoot well, cost and availability of ammunition, enjoyment of shooting (and practicing), confidence in the selected caliber, etc, etc.
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Old 12-26-2005, 13:00   #134
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My $0.02 for what it's worth

1 shot stops are a myth... 186 LEO while in the Navy, 9 of which resulted in UOLF, the Berretta M9 was a puke piece and on several occasions required the expenditure of an entire 15rnd clip plus a 12ga 00 back up to neutralize a hostile. Granted we were using military ball ammo, but still the inadequacy of the 9mm rnd was enough for me to obtain permission from my CO to use my personal side arm with NATO approved FMJ rnds as my primary weapon and the issued Barreta as my back-up.

Even then with the heavier caliber weapon, one shot stops were not seen. In this case I would have to blame the ammo for the majority of the inadequacy of these rnds. Tight grouping in the chest on several hostiles proved ineffective in dropping let alone slowing the hostile.

As has been said several times in this forum, tight grouping, high rate of fire and maintaining a level head are what will win a pistol fight.

As my teams training office said over and over and we drilled over and over...

"2 in the chest, 1 in the head... ensure the SOB is dead" LCDR Jensen USN(R). And it does work... most of the time.
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Old 01-05-2006, 20:22   #135
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Re: SOMETIMES 223 fmj does well

Quote:
Originally posted by Ragnar D.
Often, however, it does not. Not in flesh, anyway. What it does in jello is irrelevant, despite the claims of the lazy and the ignorant. There is no reason to risk using fmj bullets, and the 223 softpoint is both more destructive and more reliable in its effect, to longer ranges, and out of shorter barrels. Besides, the 223 is not the issue here. Handguns are the issue, and I agree that the velocities shown by the 10mm RBCD ammo shows what can be achieved. I did not say that I favored their style of bullet. I said that 70-80 gr bullets can be driven to 2300-2400 fps in 5" barrels with the 10mm. Now watch somebody (who can't read) explain all about how the RBCD bullet is no good. Make that lightweight bullet out of solid copper and have it be split lengthwise, like the QuikShok bullet. No, such a bullet is not illegal, either. Hit some animals with it, and you will see that it performs just like the 223 softpoint, which is to say, quite dramatically.

What cops have to do and what civilians can get away with are not the same things. If you had beat Rodney King silly with a nightstick, you'd have served 5+ years in the penitentiary.
Ummmm...ballistic gelatin is used because it mimics flesh. Of course it's not going to be 100% accurate, but the only way to get that is case studies (mutilating bodies) or animal testing, which is erroneous as animal muscle is different from human muscle. Animals have stronger muscle fibers, on the whole, than humans do. That's why an ape is 6x stronger than a human of comparable muscle mass, body weight, and size.

Regardless, back to the discussion at hand...

.223 soft-point isn't really necessary, unless you want crappy penetration. We're talking a high-velocity round which is going to fragment anyway, with better penetration, versus a soft-point high-velocity round which will also fragment, albeit more reliably, but with decreased penetration.

I don't know about you, but hitting the person comes first, THEN worrying about whether or not the bullet will promote maximum damage.
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Old 01-07-2006, 21:46   #136
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RBCD

Interesting set of comparative into live tissue(porcine)shots:
9mm VS 5.56 into LIVE TISSUE
(edited for elimination of any ambiguity, i.e.-not a potroast)
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=262940

If animal tissue is stronger...
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Last edited by Derringer; 01-09-2006 at 21:17..
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Old 01-09-2006, 21:23   #137
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a FOOL and his money

i suppose the doctors and other professionals that repeatedly purchase and shoot this ammo are doing it because they SEE what the ammo does NOT do?
my experience with these customers is that they tell me it works when they use it. THEY ALSO complain about the price(but not enough to stop them from reordering).
i might buy something once to try it out, but I won't be buying it again(Extreme Shock).
I have spoken with many professionals that are using the ammo in testing. I am aware of the threads on other websites and ONE thing seems to stand out- most of the comments come from those that have never shot this ammo.
I would LOVE to find a lead ball ammo that does what i've seen this ammo do to wild dogs, pigs, coyotes, deer etc..
if you know of a brand please save me some money and time and I'll stop selling the "junk" i'm selling now.

Thanks for your time.
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Old 01-09-2006, 22:50   #138
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Old 01-10-2006, 10:30   #139
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That's it, avoid the subject of performance. Just resort to personal attacks.
If you don't have anything to say except cliches and parroting the same things over and over again not many useful ideas can be gleaned.
RBCD is NOT the answer to all shooting scenarios.
I carry gold dots and black hills 124+p for certain things in addition to RBCD.

The small arms munition market is worth 3 BILLION plus currently,
and some of that money goes to the "experts". when companies hand out money a few tend to agree with big guys to keep on the gravy train.

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Old 01-10-2006, 10:36   #140
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go read in the rbcd post before you open your mouth here. I have seen the performance of rbcd, and I am no way impressed with it what so ever. so i'll stop pissing in your wheaties in this thread.
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Old 01-13-2006, 14:51   #141
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Quote:
Originally posted by Derringer
That's it, avoid the subject of performance. Just resort to personal attacks.
If you don't have anything to say except cliches and parroting the same things over and over again not many useful ideas can be gleaned.
RBCD is NOT the answer to all shooting scenarios.
I carry gold dots and black hills 124+p for certain things in addition to RBCD.

The small arms munition market is worth 3 BILLION plus currently,
and some of that money goes to the "experts". when companies hand out money a few tend to agree with big guys to keep on the gravy train.

I've yet to see what's different about it.

The animal tests I've seen show that it's regular old high velocity low weight ammo.

By the way, the #'s listed on the website are FALSE

The penetration depths reflect the round in gel, where it doesn't fragment, while the cavity diameters reflect the round in animal tests, where it DOES fragment, but doesn't penetrate due to little retained mass.

In other words, they're tying together two separate tests to make their ammo seem worthwhile.

Of course it looks like it works, the wounds are massive in diameter, but the depth of them is less than impressive.
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Old 01-13-2006, 16:28   #142
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i don't know what works.

but i guess as careful as i can.

my personal choice is medium power, low recoil, and a long barrel.

in other words, something that shoots straight. repeatedly.

and 'shoot it dry' ..

and 'CNS if convenient' ..

better ideas welcomed.
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Old 01-16-2006, 08:14   #143
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Re: SOMETIMES 223 fmj does well

Quote:
Originally posted by Ragnar D.
Often, however, it does not. Not in flesh, anyway. What it does in jello is irrelevant, despite the claims of the lazy and the ignorant. There is no reason to risk using fmj bullets, and the 223 softpoint is both more destructive and more reliable in its effect, to longer ranges, and out of shorter barrels. Besides, the 223 is not the issue here. Handguns are the issue, and I agree that the velocities shown by the 10mm RBCD ammo shows what can be achieved. I did not say that I favored their style of bullet. I said that 70-80 gr bullets can be driven to 2300-2400 fps in 5" barrels with the 10mm. Now watch somebody (who can't read) explain all about how the RBCD bullet is no good. Make that lightweight bullet out of solid copper and have it be split lengthwise, like the QuikShok bullet. No, such a bullet is not illegal, either. Hit some animals with it, and you will see that it performs just like the 223 softpoint, which is to say, quite dramatically.

What cops have to do and what civilians can get away with are not the same things. If you had beat Rodney King silly with a nightstick, you'd have served 5+ years in the penitentiary.
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Old 01-16-2006, 09:08   #144
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Quote:
Originally posted by searcher
Actually, the theory is right. It just doesn't lead to a "knockdown effect" in this case because the "collision" is between a bullet and a soft target. It is a little more apparent in the sport of silhouette shooting where large steel plate animals are knocked over by bullets. In fact, Newton's famous 2nd law commonly stated as "Net Force = mass x acceleration" was originally stated by Newton as "Net Force = (mass x change in velocity) / time" in the special case where the mass is a constant, as in a moving bullet. The term in parentheses is called "impulse" in physics. In words it says that "resultant force equals the time rate of change of momentum." As the time of the interaction approaches zero the force approaches infinity. In other words, the faster the momentum changes, the greater the force.

Another example is the difference in the "kick" felt when you shoot a +p+ round versus a standard pressure round of the same bullet weight out of the same gun. The bullet in the +p+ round gets to any given velocity in less time than the standard velocity round while travelling down the barrel . Same change in momentum in less time yields more felt "kick" or force. Newton's 3rd law about equal and opposite reactions doesn't really explain anything about what happens when the bullet hits the target. The fact that the gun doesn't knock you over doesn't mean diddly. What happens when the bullet is in the barrel and when it hits the target are completely separate events. His second law tells the story, especially in the form he originally used. Sorry to get so technical. The point of my post was to say that even though "knock-down force" from a handgun used for self defense is theoretically possible it can't happen in practice. A reference for the theory is Engineering Mechanics Volume 2: Dynamics fourth edition by J.L. Meriam pages 191-192.
Think of the "knock-down" effect as the work done on the target by the bullet instead of the instantaneous force (delta function, for which the integral over dt is zero)applied to the target.

P.S. Mythbusters is cool
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Old 02-06-2006, 11:33   #145
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I know of someone who died from a "lucky" shot.

it was a .38 FMJ that hit his chest, then the spinal chord, and bounced back to pierce the heart.

he dropped dead right there and then.

personally, i'd rather shoot the guy until he's dead but in the case of multiple assailants and you find yourself with limited ammo, that may not apply.

Imho, i'd rather intimidate the rest by shooting the nearest guy. if that fails it'll be my day in hell.

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Old 02-06-2006, 18:22   #146
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Quote:
Originally posted by Pr1nc3_Prince

if that fails it'll be my day in hell.

I think anyway who goes into a life or death struggle with only a pistol would be wise to keep this in mind!

Sure you may drop 'em with one shot, or you may empty a whole mag into them and still get killed. It's always a crap shoot and sometimes the dice come up snake-eyes.
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Old 02-07-2006, 17:26   #147
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Dont worry, as soon as glock figures out how to make its recoiless .308 pistol we will finally be saved.
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Old 02-08-2006, 06:11   #148
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bravo-Four
Dont worry, as soon as glock figures out how to make its recoiless .308 pistol we will finally be saved.
i doubt it.

your problem would be over-penetration and legislation, which i beleive is a bigger problem than handguns.

i'd prefer the recoil-less handgun using SHELLS!

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Old 02-13-2006, 16:49   #149
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Re: "collage?"

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Originally posted by utahglock
So we accepting a "collage" as a way to destroy a myth? Sounds intellecually silly and lazy to me.

I've never advocated shooting only once-the one shot stop whether you agree or not is simply a unit of measurement.

Evan
Yep it's a unit of measurement that measures which unit is so narrow as to be unuseable except for measuring things you already know the outcome of and the certain circumstances surrounding it.

It's like saying every time I play checkers on even numbered days against the cat where I'm the "red" checkers I win 87% of the time.

It has no utility except in describing those certain circumstances.
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Old 02-13-2006, 16:55   #150
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Quote:
Originally posted by searcher
Not trying to be a physics geek here but Newton's laws do allow for a small body in motion to knock down a larger object it hits, even if an equally sized object that was free to topple over (but didn't) was holding the "particle projector" that imparted the motion to the projectile. The key is the time it takes the projectile to "dump" (transfer) its energy to the target (described in physics by the term "impulse")in a collision. The other thing that influences this is the "hardness" of the projectile and the target (coefficient of restitution). Intuitively this makes sense with the example of catching a fast moving ball. If we catch the ball by moving it back while we catch it (increasing the "catching time") the force we feel will be less than if we catch it with a stiff hand(stings like hell!). This is the same thing that lets a martial artist break bricks with his bare hand, even though a man can lift much less weight on a bench press than it would take to collapse a brick designed to hold the weight of buildings.

So all you need to do is shoot a guy holding a thick glass block (glass has a very high "coefficient of restitution") up snuggly to his forehead with a large caliber wadcutter made of hardened steel to knock him down. Otherwise it is not likely.
No handgun round has enough momentum to knock down a human being. Unless they're off balance. Hell, a 12ga slug doesn't have enough momentum even if all the "energy is expended into the target."

Try again.
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