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08-05-2005, 17:00   #76
searcher
Senior Member

Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 205
Quote:
 Originally posted by fredj338 sorry searcher, but your theory is wrong ~1. You can test it yourself by shooting a 5 gallon bucket full of sand. What's it wiegh, 60-70#. Shoot it w/ any handgun round you want & it will NOT be pushed over. The instant collapse you see in men & animls after being hit is either surprise reaction or neurological failure. No such thing as "energy dump", sorry man.
Actually, the theory is right. It just doesn't lead to a "knockdown effect" in this case because the "collision" is between a bullet and a soft target. It is a little more apparent in the sport of silhouette shooting where large steel plate animals are knocked over by bullets. In fact, Newton's famous 2nd law commonly stated as "Net Force = mass x acceleration" was originally stated by Newton as "Net Force = (mass x change in velocity) / time" in the special case where the mass is a constant, as in a moving bullet. The term in parentheses is called "impulse" in physics. In words it says that "resultant force equals the time rate of change of momentum." As the time of the interaction approaches zero the force approaches infinity. In other words, the faster the momentum changes, the greater the force.

Another example is the difference in the "kick" felt when you shoot a +p+ round versus a standard pressure round of the same bullet weight out of the same gun. The bullet in the +p+ round gets to any given velocity in less time than the standard velocity round while travelling down the barrel . Same change in momentum in less time yields more felt "kick" or force. Newton's 3rd law about equal and opposite reactions doesn't really explain anything about what happens when the bullet hits the target. The fact that the gun doesn't knock you over doesn't mean diddly. What happens when the bullet is in the barrel and when it hits the target are completely separate events. His second law tells the story, especially in the form he originally used. Sorry to get so technical. The point of my post was to say that even though "knock-down force" from a handgun used for self defense is theoretically possible it can't happen in practice. A reference for the theory is Engineering Mechanics Volume 2: Dynamics fourth edition by J.L. Meriam pages 191-192.

Last edited by searcher; 05-08-2011 at 20:08..

 08-26-2005, 23:23 #77 DAVE RICHARDS Senior Member   Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: FRANKLIN, TN. Posts: 1,623 You know I could never see the logic of one professional trainer who shall remain nameless would say something like this. Double tap the chest, lower weapon to 45 degrees to access effect, if necessary go for a head shot. why in the hell would you stop "AND LOWER YOUR WEAPON to 45 degrees" to access effect if the son of a gun is still standing? Shoot the bastard as your moving for cover until he drops! Of course you need as much as possible to also be checking for other possible assailants. But for God's sake take care of the immediate one! In the 5-6 times I've had to draw a weapon on another human being (thank God they quit at the sight of the weapon) I was not thinking about a double tap or whatever. If I had to shoot I was going to shoot until he went down or slide lock! And sometimes they can go down and get right back up. So even ater they go down stay behind cover till your sure they are out of the fight for good. __________________ DAVE RICHARDS
 08-26-2005, 23:37 #78 Alaskapopo NRA ENDOWMENT     Join Date: Feb 2000 Location: Alaska Posts: 16,457 I don't know about lowering the weapon but if the first two rounds don't work then the head is a good place to go or the pelvis if the head is not able to be hit. Pat __________________ Colt M16/AR15/ 1911 & Glock Armorer. Certified Firearms Instructor & Urban Rifle Instructor. Completed SWAT Entry Team and SWAT Sniper courses. NRA Endowment Member USPSA B class
 08-27-2005, 16:20 #79 454ThunderGod Handgun Hunter   Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: West Posts: 653 Well...I will offer only this. As a Handgun hunter, I live by the oneshot-one kill rule. For many reasons. I have attained the ability to maximize its effect when filling my freezer. Nowadays, a box of ammo tends to last two seasons. All I can say is that the princples that I follow and htose followed by my father and gradnfather before I, bring forth a shot that always anchors the animal and dropps into tis own hoofsteps. Now , can this be applied to the defensive scenario. Yes. The basic principles of terminal ballistics still apply, though some of the surrounding stipulations have changed. If in a defensive situation a bullet from a handgun can bring a man down in one shot. Everything else is an assessment of environmental factors with regards to the dynamics of the shooting/Attack. If one is a good enough chess player, and is able to work those conditions in his favor. He can have his one shot kill, and he can have it almost everytime. FOlks speak of the reassurance of the douple tap. all of which is valid. However some folks prefer the reassurance of still having ammo left to take on the guy behind you with the crowbar. Even in the unlikely scenario of having to deal with multiple attackers in your home, it is still to ones advantage to be able to incapacitate and kill with one shot. Aside from all this, most importantly one must understand what body targets give him that one shot kill. Then must determine if the ammo being used has the terminal performance to strike those targets effecftively. (Im not sure who came up with it, but one shot kill by shooting any part of the torso is a load of garbage and a gross misinterpretation of the facts.) For starters, if your choice of ammo cannot maintain a relatively striaght path while traveling through the human body. Best to stick with a double tap DOnt let your double taps get more than 3 inches apart. A high level of tissue distruction is the way to go, but mroe importantly it is distruction of the correct tissues. All of you who choose to own a gun for defensive reasons need to be well versed in basic human anatomy. Just as I need to be educated in basic deer and Elk anatomy. LAstly is the issue of stress. Stress management comes with proper training. There are those out there who have brought down charging Hippos and Rhinos with one shot. Im pretty sure the stress level of a raging Hippo is a bit moreso than from that of raging crackhead. All I will say, if you train properly. It will work for you. besides, lack of stress management will also have neegaive effects on the double tap. High Stress is not overcome by shooting techniques. Be professional and try not to oet your douple tap turn into "Spray and Pray" The effectiveness Both one shot, and double taps are a function of terminal ballistics and shot placement. From there, must learn to control the surrounding factors that interfere with your shot placement. One can train successfully to quick draw and fire into that sweet spot every time. as far as the gun is concerned, you will need a weapn that can put the bullet into a tennis ball size target within the distance of an average room - everytime. If you cannot do this, then perhaps your double tap is preferred. In conclusion....The single shot kill in a defensive scenario is much more difficult to attain than killing someone with multiple shots. However is is an ability that offers the shooter so many more advantages and brings the individual shooter into a higher level of firearm proficiency and marksmanship. Last edited by 454ThunderGod; 08-27-2005 at 16:31..
 08-27-2005, 16:31 #80 454ThunderGod Handgun Hunter   Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: West Posts: 653 To comment on other training standards. CENTER of MASS Trying to hit center mass is not condusive to killing quickly, nor is it comndusive to even good shot placement. Keep in mind that your targets are about the size of your fist and smaller. Aim Small - Miss small. When aiming, do so quickly yet smoothly. Do not be hurried or spastic. Stress managemnt will come from time management. The more fractions of a second you can save by eliminating needless movements, the better your shot placement will be. Lastly, that sweet spot is not exactly Center of Mass, expect it to be to one side or another.
08-28-2005, 21:26   #81
RMTactical
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Join Date: Oct 2000
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Posts: 29,664

Quote:
 Originally posted by 454ThunderGod Well...I will offer only this. As a Handgun hunter, I live by the oneshot-one kill rule. For many reasons. I have attained the ability to maximize its effect when filling my freezer. Nowadays, a box of ammo tends to last two seasons. All I can say is that the princples that I follow and htose followed by my father and gradnfather before I, bring forth a shot that always anchors the animal and dropps into tis own hoofsteps. Now , can this be applied to the defensive scenario. Yes. The basic principles of terminal ballistics still apply, though some of the surrounding stipulations have changed. If in a defensive situation a bullet from a handgun can bring a man down in one shot. Everything else is an assessment of environmental factors with regards to the dynamics of the shooting/Attack. If one is a good enough chess player, and is able to work those conditions in his favor. He can have his one shot kill, and he can have it almost everytime. FOlks speak of the reassurance of the douple tap. all of which is valid. However some folks prefer the reassurance of still having ammo left to take on the guy behind you with the crowbar. Even in the unlikely scenario of having to deal with multiple attackers in your home, it is still to ones advantage to be able to incapacitate and kill with one shot. Aside from all this, most importantly one must understand what body targets give him that one shot kill. Then must determine if the ammo being used has the terminal performance to strike those targets effecftively. (Im not sure who came up with it, but one shot kill by shooting any part of the torso is a load of garbage and a gross misinterpretation of the facts.) For starters, if your choice of ammo cannot maintain a relatively striaght path while traveling through the human body. Best to stick with a double tap DOnt let your double taps get more than 3 inches apart. A high level of tissue distruction is the way to go, but mroe importantly it is distruction of the correct tissues. All of you who choose to own a gun for defensive reasons need to be well versed in basic human anatomy. Just as I need to be educated in basic deer and Elk anatomy. LAstly is the issue of stress. Stress management comes with proper training. There are those out there who have brought down charging Hippos and Rhinos with one shot. Im pretty sure the stress level of a raging Hippo is a bit moreso than from that of raging crackhead. All I will say, if you train properly. It will work for you. besides, lack of stress management will also have neegaive effects on the double tap. High Stress is not overcome by shooting techniques. Be professional and try not to oet your douple tap turn into "Spray and Pray" The effectiveness Both one shot, and double taps are a function of terminal ballistics and shot placement. From there, must learn to control the surrounding factors that interfere with your shot placement. One can train successfully to quick draw and fire into that sweet spot every time. as far as the gun is concerned, you will need a weapn that can put the bullet into a tennis ball size target within the distance of an average room - everytime. If you cannot do this, then perhaps your double tap is preferred. In conclusion....The single shot kill in a defensive scenario is much more difficult to attain than killing someone with multiple shots. However is is an ability that offers the shooter so many more advantages and brings the individual shooter into a higher level of firearm proficiency and marksmanship.
You can't be serious! Bad analogy with shooting 4 legged critters.

Does your prey shoot back? Do they run for good cover like concrete or thick steel? Do they always threaten your life or the life of others before you decide to shoot? Do you always CCW with a very large caliber revolver and a scope?

I'm sorry, but a oneshot-one kill world is hardly realistic. Even professionally trained snipers only have a kill percentage of like 50%. This is assuming you are shooting at an individual who possibly doesn't even know he is a target (similar to hunting).

When you get into a gunfight, your target must know he is in your crosshairs(at least the vast majority of the time) or your probably committing murder.
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 08-29-2005, 18:18 #82 Ebb27 Senior Member     Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: East of the mountains Posts: 2,807 You would definitely stand a better chance at a one shot stop with a handgun if the target is standing still and unaware it's going to be shot, such as in a hunting situation. Now if they're moving around trying to avoid getting shot or their adrenaline is pumping and they don't care if they get shot it's considerably tougher. Try bringing down an animal that's running top speed or crazed with fear with one shot from a handgun. I believe you'll find the percentage of one shot kills will drop dramatically. __________________ A Glock in the hand, is worth two in the safe.
09-01-2005, 18:12   #83
gun lover
Member

Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 37
Re: Really Scary!!

Quote:
 Originally posted by oldgranpa And here I was hoping someday to see a "two-shot-stop" rating of different calibers. It's becoming obvious that would be no more effective than a "one-shot-stop" rating, whatever that is. I guess for us civilians with our little 9mm pocket guns the best rule is still rule 3.....run away if you can! Changes what I think about my .45 home defense pistol too. Whatever! og
i guess we all have to carry 44 magnums now

 09-14-2005, 05:13 #84 DunedinDragon Senior Oldtimer     Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Dunedin, FL Posts: 429 What I glean from the original article is, shoot fast, shoot straight, and don't stop shooting until the target stops. Shooting fast and straight is a function of practice. Not ceasing fire until the BG stops is really a concern of law, politics, and public opinion. In some ways a LEO is at a disadvantage in a shooting incident in comparison to a civilian. The expectation is that the LEO's training will lead him to being reasonable in his use of force in an emergency, whereas that expectation is not as high for a civilian. Therefore, emptying a full mag of 13 rds of .45 hollow-points into a BG might not be as justifiable after the fact for a LEO as it would be for a civilian who is "scared out of his wits and firing for his life." I guess if I was a BG I might be a whole lot less frightened to face off with a LEO than a well-armed and well-practiced civilian. The only way to change this type of limit on LEOs is to make sure review boards, lawyers, district attorneys, and public officials read articles like this and become more educated on the dynamics involved in shooting incidents.
 10-02-2005, 12:37 #85 MOHAA Player Guest   Posts: n/a I look at the whole situation of stopping power as anything can happen,and shoot until there is no more threat.If we get invaded or something else on that level I am only relying on my handgun to get me back home to a long rifle.
10-16-2005, 18:04   #86
SJCTristen
Member

Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: San Jose
Posts: 21
Re: Re: Re: Maybe they should carry 44 mags with mags safe defender ammo

Quote:
 Originally posted by gary newport You nailed it! ;c
This being said, wouldn't it be better to shoot a round that has less recoil? If you can get a 9mm back on This being said, wouldn't it be better to shoot a round that has less recoil? If you can get a 9mm back on target, ready fire another round accurately at the assailant, wouldn't that be a better choice than a .45 or a 10mm, tactically?
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 10-18-2005, 22:33 #87 10mm4ever 10mm Pusher     Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: sw,Ohio Posts: 4,374 Thats a tough one!So much depends on the situation.Home defense...he's probably within 10 feet of you and can close that distance in about a second.That takes quick,precise follow up shots out of the equation,its no longer a factor whatsoever.What if the BG's got his hands on you and there's a struggle??I would think that a magnum,or say 10mm would have an advantage here.In the above scenario,you'll take whatever shot(s) you possibly can,and the ability to hit a femur(for example), with enough force to fragment bone and puncture the femural artery will end the fight right now!That same shot made with ,say a 9mm would most likely not end the struggle,and may give him just enough time make you dead.Assume that if you're lucky,you may get one shot only,and it may not be well placed due to the above circumstances.Quick follow up shots should have very little to do with caliber selection.This whole thing about assuming you'll get a clear "textbook" frontal shot into the vitals is nonsense,considering that your also being shot at and,or about to be stabbed,and or struggling to keep him from taking your gun away.Leave the "quick follow up shots" to the competitors and go with as much power as you can control.
 11-03-2005, 18:36 #89 army_eod Senior Member     Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: IL Posts: 1,825 That settles it.. GoreLicks. I think I will have to start carrying a shotgun and or an AK. __________________ Princes and governments are far more dangerous than other elements within society. Niccolo Machiavelli
 11-08-2005, 21:05 #90 omnivore75 Member   Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 64 I'm comfortable with my Glock 22 with high caps full of 165 grain Ranger T because I believe thats just about the most effective load/weapon combination for self defense available today, but I would also be fine with my Beretta 92fs Brigadier INOX with high caps full of 127 grain 9mm +P+ Ranger T because those loads almost could rival the .40, .357, and .45 stopping power wise (if there is such a thing) in my opinion, but it is just that. My opinion. What you trust and feel confident with is a personal choice. If I can I am grabbing my 12 ga. winchester 1300 Defender loaded with Ranger low recoil 00 buck or my AR with Lake City M855 or maybe even my Bushmaster type 97S Carbon 15 pistol (depending on situation/location) if I am defending my life and have the luxury of knowing about it ahead of time but I am not about to put all my handguns in a bag and throw them in the river if ya know what I mean. The very real advantahes of handguns is evident in the term it'self. "Hand" gun.
11-09-2005, 18:42   #91
RMTactical
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Re: That settles it..

Quote:
 Originally posted by army_eod GoreLicks. I think I will have to start carrying a shotgun and or an AK.
There you go!!
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 11-09-2005, 21:07 #92 omnivore75 Member   Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 64 That would certainly be nice but perhaps a bit conspicuous if ya know what I mean. Talk about freaking people out.;g ;P
11-09-2005, 22:52   #93
raptor3
Senior Member

Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 615
Quote:
 Originally posted by GoreLicks What stands out to me is that 10% of these guys were killed with their own weapon... :(
What stands out even more is half of them were wearing body armor... which implies they were likely killed by a headshot.

11-09-2005, 22:55   #94
raptor3
Senior Member

Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 615
Quote:
 Originally posted by GoreLicks Does your prey shoot back? I'm sorry, but a oneshot-one kill world is hardly realistic. Even professionally trained snipers only have a kill percentage of like 50%. This is assuming you are shooting at an individual who possibly doesn't even know he is a target (similar to hunting). When you get into a gunfight, your target must know he is in your crosshairs(at least the vast majority of the time) or your probably committing murder.
You summed it up perfectly.

11-09-2005, 23:05   #95
NRA ENDOWMENT

Join Date: Feb 2000
Posts: 16,457

Quote:
 Originally posted by raptor3 What stands out even more is half of them were wearing body armor... which implies they were likely killed by a headshot.
Not always sometimes the rounds go between the panels on guys who are overweight and the panels don't overlap. Sometimes it goes under the arm. (weaver stance presentation puts the weakest portion of your body right towards the bad guys bullets. Also their are major arteries in the legs that can kill you if their hit. The good news is it used to be 25% of officers were shot with their own weapon now its like 12%. Weapon retention training and security holsters have made the difference.
Pat
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11-09-2005, 23:08   #96
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Join Date: Feb 2000
Posts: 16,457

Quote:
 Originally posted by omnivore75 I'm comfortable with my Glock 22 with high caps full of 165 grain Ranger T because I believe thats just about the most effective load/weapon combination for self defense available today, but I would also be fine with my Beretta 92fs Brigadier INOX with high caps full of 127 grain 9mm +P+ Ranger T because those loads almost could rival the .40, .357, and .45 stopping power wise (if there is such a thing) in my opinion, but it is just that. My opinion. What you trust and feel confident with is a personal choice. If I can I am grabbing my 12 ga. winchester 1300 Defender loaded with Ranger low recoil 00 buck or my AR with Lake City M855 or maybe even my Bushmaster type 97S Carbon 15 pistol (depending on situation/location) if I am defending my life and have the luxury of knowing about it ahead of time but I am not about to put all my handguns in a bag and throw them in the river if ya know what I mean. The very real advantahes of handguns is evident in the term it'self. "Hand" gun.
Handguns are there for when we don't know there is a fight comming. We carry them because their convienent and handy. Their not fight stoppers. They can save your bacon and also they can help you fight your way to your rifle or shotgun.
Pat
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11-10-2005, 08:07   #97
10mm4ever
10mm Pusher

Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: sw,Ohio
Posts: 4,374
Quote:
 Originally posted by 355sigfan Handguns are there for when we don't know there is a fight comming. We carry them because their convienent and handy. Their not fight stoppers. They can save your bacon and also they can help you fight your way to your rifle or shotgun. Pat
So..."handguns are not fightstoppers"?Just another blanket statement from the "pro",eh?;Q Some are more effective fightstoppers than others,all things being equal,such as shot placement.Some are even very effective with mediocre shot placement.Also you state"we carry them because they're convenient and handy",sounds more like a condom to me.;Q

 11-10-2005, 08:45 #98 glug Senior Member   Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 144 Damned right. Double Tap's 135 gr jhp in the 10mm is lot more likely to suffice than 9mm or .45 ball ammo, for a fact. It's still far inferior, however, to the 12 ga, and the 12 ga has failed to stop quite a few with a chest hit. That hot a 10mm is also a lot harder to control for repeat hits (in a realistic size and wt ccw gun) than most will ever be able to handle. I will not settle for .40 second repeat hits, when I can crack .20 second for repeat hits with a load that is similirly shocking and destuctive.
11-10-2005, 09:09   #99
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Posts: 16,457

Quote:
 Originally posted by 10mm4ever So..."handguns are not fightstoppers"?Just another blanket statement from the "pro",eh?;Q Some are more effective fightstoppers than others,all things being equal,such as shot placement.Some are even very effective with mediocre shot placement.Also you state"we carry them because they're convenient and handy",sounds more like a condom to me.;Q
Ok so your saying that a marginal hit with a 10mm is better than a good hit with a 9mm. Thats BS. A 22 to the eye is better than a 10mm hit to the arm. As for pros most pros know that handguns are weak by their nature. Their is not much difference between the hottests service pistols loads to the more weaker ones. No handgun round is very effective at stopping people. There are people that have taken round after round of 357 mag and 45 rounds and still kept comming. Heck some have even kept comming after taking shotgun and rifle rounds. As Clint Smith has said handguns are their to fight your way back to your rifle. Your points of view can only come from someone who is ignorant of the realities of actual gun fights. Most experts in the wound ballistics area agree that most service rounds are simular in actual terminal performance and that shot placement is far more critial than caliber selection. Do yourself a favor and get some training.
Pat
__________________
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Completed SWAT Entry Team and SWAT Sniper courses.
NRA Endowment Member
USPSA B class

 11-10-2005, 09:28 #100 glug Senior Member   Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 144 The 10mm to the arm can shatter the bone and that can be very debilitating, indeed. The luck hit to his arm is the only thing that stopped Platt from killing all 8 of the Feds with his Mini-14 that day in Miami. So it depends upon what you claim is "marginal" hit. The 10mm jhp to the gut will be a LOT more likely to stop a man than a 9mm ball rd to the lung, for instance. It just has a lot more pain, shock, and so on for the guy to try to overcome with his adrenalin. Not everyone has the same level of desperation-adrenalin as the worst case scenarios.

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