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Old 07-03-2005, 15:50   #51
shepsan
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I have read many conflicting theories about the subject of ammunition stopping power. What is real stopping power? Is it caliber or is it velocity? Are expanding bullets better than ball to stop and attacker? Which brand is best?

There seems to be as many answers to these questions as there are writers addressing the subject. After reading Dave Spaulding’s article in the August/September 2005 issue of HANGUNS, I find that his comments answer most of these questions to my satisfaction.

Besides providing anecdotal evidence on the subject, Mr. Spaulding discusses specific brands, types and calibers of ammunition. It is however, Mr. Spaulding’s own theories that I found to be most valuable.

“Stopping power really does not exist. What we are looking to achieve is incapacitation.” In other words, “we know that any firearm can cause death by damaging vital organs in the body. However, death does not always result in instant incapacitation.”

“The handgun incapacitation problem or lack thereof, is not an ammo problem at all; it’s a training problem. Let’s use common sense and take a look at the topic of handgun incapacitation. Is a large bullet better than a small bullet? To think otherwise would be silly. A larger-diameter bullet will strike more tissue, which will result in a larger would.”

“By delivering two bullets about four inches apart, the chance of hitting a vital area is enhanced. Naturally, more shots would be even better.”

Mr. Spaulding quotes Dr. Vincent DiMaio, “a famed medical examiner.” Dr. DiMaio:”incapacitation was a direct result of where you shoot the suspect and how many times you can shoot him.”

It seems to me from reading the reference articles, that regardless of the caliber, velocity or type of bullet that one loads, the best way to incapacitate or if you prefer, stop an attacker, is to put numerous quick hits on the center mass of a person. In any event, expending a complete magazine is far safer than expecting that one great shot to down the adversary.
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Last edited by shepsan; 07-04-2005 at 07:46..
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Old 07-05-2005, 15:32   #52
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I agree, my primary being 5.56 but, as a back up that may result in me living or not. I say .45 any day over 9mm. 2 .45 govt to the chest or head of body armor is worn will do the trick. Or yes you can empty the mag of the 9mm. Either way, I want to get back to my primary as quickly as possible. So yes, a rifle round is always better.
I do not know if this is true or not, but I did read in an article how the .22 cal had killed more people other than military actions. So good aim should be and is the best thing for a knock down. Good controlled group to vitals seems to be the best answer for knock down.

Remember the Army went to 9mm to make NATO happy. The Army went to the berretta to make Italy happy. Not because of ballistics or quality of the weapon. Now the Army has gone back to .45 Govt in some Units for the secondary weapon.
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Old 07-05-2005, 19:01   #53
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The validity of the "One shot stop" has been thrown around since the study was done. You can't really argue the results. The results are what they are, but it is to be taken as is, not a definetive study saying if you use brand 'A' it WILL stop an attacker 91.2% of the time. There are many, many stories about good guys, bad guys, soldiers & civilians taking massive damage to the torso & surving to fight on, sometimes even to live through it.
Probably better than shooting jello blocks or using some formula to give a shooter an idea of what works better, and some rounds/bullets do work better than others. The studies are real world shootings, take the results for what they are worth. Bottom line is no handgun round can be determined to stop an attacker reliably w/ one shot, so as said before, shoot until your target is down.
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Old 07-06-2005, 11:58   #54
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I read where the officer shot the offender in the chest four times, and the offender kept coming at him with a knife.

If I were confronted with an offender carrying a contact weapon, I'm going to aim at his pecker. One shot to the pelvis and he's down. It would be mechanically impossible to stand, nomatter what the offender is snorting or smoking.
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Old 07-06-2005, 12:52   #55
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rebeldon
I read where the officer shot the offender in the chest four times, and the offender kept coming at him with a knife.

If I were confronted with an offender carrying a contact weapon, I'm going to aim at his pecker. One shot to the pelvis and he's down. It would be mechanically impossible to stand, nomatter what the offender is snorting or smoking.
The pelvic shot is not as easy as one would assume its harder than a head shot. Also most handgun rounds lack sufficient momentium and energy to break the pelvis.
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Old 07-08-2005, 20:33   #56
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"One shot to the pelvis and he's down."

Pretty dangerous belief, man.

We should all beware the absolute thoughts. (I.e. If I do "A", bad guy WILL do "B")

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Old 07-09-2005, 01:00   #57
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Quote:
Originally posted by 355sigfan
The pelvic shot is not as easy as one would assume its harder than a head shot. Also most handgun rounds lack sufficient momentium and energy to break the pelvis.
Pat
Bones like the pelvis are quite flexible too.
It's a lot more likely you'll just make a hole in it,
than shatter it like it were a piece of glass.

Ideally you would like to take out the hip-joint,
so the attacker would be unable to stand.
Unfortunately though it's a lot easier said than done.
Most attackers won't just stand there
and let you take perfect aim on them.

With the use of body armor becoming more common,
it's not a bad idea to consider shots other than COM.
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Old 07-11-2005, 21:15   #58
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Quote:
Originally posted by 355sigfan
The pelvic shot is not as easy as one would assume its harder than a head shot. Also most handgun rounds lack sufficient momentium and energy to break the pelvis.
Pat
True. My mom is an ER nurse and she said that most of the gunshot wounds she has seen in that area of the body, the bullet will deflect and change course... sometimes to the victims detriment, sometimes not...

She also mentioned that most gunshot victims DO have multiple wounds and that surviving is rather easy as long as the bullets did not hit critical areas, also a factor is the speed of treatment for the wounds. Many people walk out of the hospital after having been shot. They can be easy to survive.

I found it interesting that sometimes they leave the bullets in the victims. Strange, since you would think the lead in the bullet would be toxic...

Anyway, something to think about...

I think COM is where it's at. That or, if you can do head shots.
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Old 07-13-2005, 09:33   #59
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Stopping power can be looked at in two ways from my point of view.

1. Stopping a threat, not caring if they live or die just stopping the threat.
2. Time to ceasation of brain function.

Personally, I could care less how long it takes for the brain to stop functioning. I want as much impact/trauma as possible. IMHO Hit the fastest, hardest, with the heaviest bullet that has the most expansion, without over-penetrating. And keep hitting them till the threat is over. Then remain prepared to do it again.

I want a devastating 4 inch diameter wound channel and a doubling in size of the round. 12-13" penetration.

Doubletap .40 155gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1275fps - 13.00" / .76"
Doubletap 10mm 155gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1475fps - 13.5" / .88"
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Old 07-16-2005, 10:58   #60
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I got a question: Which is better 9mm or .45ACP?
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Old 07-16-2005, 11:25   #61
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Quote:
Originally posted by Turk40SW
I want a devastating 4 inch diameter wound channel and a doubling in size of the round.
No handgun round will give you a 4" permanent wound channel.
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Old 07-16-2005, 11:48   #62
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rebeldon
I read where the officer shot the offender in the chest four times, and the offender kept coming at him with a knife.

If I were confronted with an offender carrying a contact weapon, I'm going to aim at his pecker. One shot to the pelvis and he's down. It would be mechanically impossible to stand, nomatter what the offender is snorting or smoking.
Interesting thought. If you can't incapcitate him by the trauma of impact, you can demoralize him to the point where he has no will to live. ;g

Pecker shot = real trauma
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Old 07-17-2005, 13:56   #63
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Quote:
Originally posted by turbonatr
No handgun round will give you a 4" permanent wound channel.
Hmm, maybe an M79 40mm with a pistol grip and a lead hollow point slug? ;P

I wouldn't want to fire it either!

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Old 07-22-2005, 17:54   #64
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Quote:
Originally posted by GoreLicks
No doubt, that's why you cannot just shoot someone once. You've GOT to shoot until the perp is no longer a threat. One or two shots to the chest MAY not be enough to get the job done and there are too many variables. Some to consider, some that can't be worked into the equation until AFTER.
A cop from the Philippines (where I came from) told me that a person can still kill you within eight seconds even after he has been shot with non-survivable wounds. I wouldn't believe him at first, but after reading some posts, what he told me makes sense after all.

We got some training from an Israeli who came to the Philippines sometime in the late 80's. He was very good with the Browning Hi-Power. He told us to use the "body, body, head" technique. He told us a shot in the head is an insurance in case the perpetrator: 1) is using body armor; and 2) wasn't stopped by the two shots to the torso.
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Old 07-22-2005, 18:04   #65
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Quote:
Originally posted by CAcop
I got a question: Which is better 9mm or .45ACP?
It really depends on what ammo are you using for a certain caliber. A .45 ACP 230 gr Hydra Shok has had an impressive record. A 9mm 115 gr Cor-Bon is also good. 38 Super 115 gr Silvertips and Cor-Bons hold their own records as well. I wonder why people have "forgotten" the 38 Super. My friend used to hunt Philippine Deer with this caliber, and he told me he had better results with 38 Supers than with the .45 ACP. He further added that deer shot with a 38 Super FMJ almost always collapsed where it stood. Those shot with a .45 ACP FMJ still ran about 50 meters before collapsing.

Another friend's business was robbed by 5 people, all carrying .45 1911s sometime 2003. His brother-in-law was the manager of the business. His brother-in-law shot one of the robbers with a Beretta 22 pistol loaded with 22 lr Stinger on the chest. The robber was immediately incapacitated and died about 1 hour later in the hospital. Several employees of the business were injured after the robbers shot them.

Sorry, I have no experience with .40 S&W.

Last edited by isuzu; 07-22-2005 at 18:13..
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Old 07-25-2005, 22:06   #66
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Howdy,

Quote:
Originally posted by Rebeldon
I read where the officer shot the offender in the chest four times, and the offender kept coming at him with a knife.

If I were confronted with an offender carrying a contact weapon, I'm going to aim at his pecker. One shot to the pelvis and he's down. It would be mechanically impossible to stand, nomatter what the offender is snorting or smoking.
Not true. I saw a guy get shot in the pelvis area w/ a short barrel 16 ga shotgun w/ a slug at short range and the guy did not go down. He ran around screaming that his guts were on fire. The gun shot actually blow off his ***** and both testicles! He lived through the ordeal somehow and carried his guts around in a bag for 2 years.

Paul

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Old 07-28-2005, 22:39   #67
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Quote:
Originally posted by 355sigfan
HA HA HA HA HA;z ;z ;z

You actually believe a pistol of any caliber will knock a man down. You must of missed some of neutons basic laws. For example every action has an equal and opposite reaction. No pistol round will knock a man down or even make him shudder. Knockdown power is a myth.
Pat
Not trying to be a physics geek here but Newton's laws do allow for a small body in motion to knock down a larger object it hits, even if an equally sized object that was free to topple over (but didn't) was holding the "particle projector" that imparted the motion to the projectile. The key is the time it takes the projectile to "dump" (transfer) its energy to the target (described in physics by the term "impulse")in a collision. The other thing that influences this is the "hardness" of the projectile and the target (coefficient of restitution). Intuitively this makes sense with the example of catching a fast moving ball. If we catch the ball by moving it back while we catch it (increasing the "catching time") the force we feel will be less than if we catch it with a stiff hand(stings like hell!). This is the same thing that lets a martial artist break bricks with his bare hand, even though a man can lift much less weight on a bench press than it would take to collapse a brick designed to hold the weight of buildings.

So all you need to do is shoot a guy holding a thick glass block (glass has a very high "coefficient of restitution") up snuggly to his forehead with a large caliber wadcutter made of hardened steel to knock him down. Otherwise it is not likely.

Last edited by searcher; 07-29-2005 at 14:11..
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Old 07-29-2005, 05:55   #68
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bull-listics!!

All published stuff is bull-listics! Everyone Dirty Harry shot was blown over, knocked clean thru the window, etc. What better proof do we need??;i^b;9;K
og
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Old 07-29-2005, 22:46   #69
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Re: "collage?"

Quote:
Originally posted by utahglock
So we accepting a "collage" as a way to destroy a myth? Sounds intellecually silly and lazy to me.

I've never advocated shooting only once-the one shot stop whether you agree or not is simply a unit of measurement.

Evan


I agree! What's with all the people disputing it like there's a hidden agenda behind the simple statistics.
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Old 07-30-2005, 14:46   #70
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Re: Re: "collage?"

Quote:
Originally posted by Rekced
I agree! What's with all the people disputing it like there's a hidden agenda behind the simple statistics.

This the internet ol' son,
EVERYTHING on here is part of a
"hidden agenda"! ;R ;R ;R
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Old 07-31-2005, 00:40   #71
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I'm asking myself "is he joking or is he a little strange?"



;P




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Old 08-01-2005, 19:24   #72
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rekced
I'm asking myself "is he joking or is he a little strange?"



;P





You're right I am!


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Old 08-02-2005, 09:40   #73
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I prefer to keep things simple and aim for the triangle area between both nipples and the base of the throat - firing until the BG is on the ground and then ready to get some more lead out.

Long live the 9mm with Ranger T's in 147-gr. (RA9T).
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Old 08-05-2005, 13:11   #74
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sorry searcher, but your theory is wrong ~1. You can test it yourself by shooting a 5 gallon bucket full of sand. What's it wiegh, 60-70#. Shoot it w/ any handgun round you want & it will NOT be pushed over. The instant collapse you see in men & animls after being hit is either surprise reaction or neurological failure. No such thing as "energy dump", sorry man.
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Old 08-05-2005, 15:01   #75
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Quote:
Originally posted by fredj338
sorry searcher, but your theory is wrong ~1. You can test it yourself by shooting a 5 gallon bucket full of sand. What's it wiegh, 60-70#. Shoot it w/ any handgun round you want & it will NOT be pushed over. The instant collapse you see in men & animls after being hit is either surprise reaction or neurological failure. No such thing as "energy dump", sorry man.
Amen, brother, keep preaching till the lost hear the message!

A recent Mythbusters had them shooting sides of beef. No tangible movement. Hand gun energy dump is a myth. Penetration, big enough holes in the right places is what counts.
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