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Old 10-05-2007, 16:04   #361
taters
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anyone who believes that someone who had a .44 magnum emptied into him and then killed the attacker also believes in the tooth fairy santa clause and the easter bunny. amazing how people could believe that kind of nonsense. the israeli mosad; when they tracked down the killers of the israeli team at munich used guns to assasinate the plo killers. guess what caliber they used to kill all those arab terrorists?.22 s yes you read that right .israeli assination squads useds .22s exclusively. so don't believe that nonsense that if you shoot someone 4-5 times with a .45 that they will keep on coming. they are going down every time!!!!!taters
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Old 10-05-2007, 16:33   #362
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Depends on what drug they're on. Theres opium junkies that get exited by pain ect... It is amazing but not impossible. Mozambique drill...
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Old 10-06-2007, 14:56   #363
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Originally posted by taters
anyone who believes that someone who had a .44 magnum emptied into him and then killed the attacker also believes in the tooth fairy santa clause and the easter bunny.
I agree 100%,but there's people on GT that will believe this no matter what,I gave up even trying after a while.It's still funny to read some of the stories people post of a friend they know who took a 45acp or a 44magnum in the chest or head and kept fighting and said he didn't know he was even shot
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Old 10-06-2007, 17:34   #364
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AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!yo can tell them that them that the mosad killed all the plo terrorists with .22s their assination weapon of choice and it makes no difference.you are right i am done with this topic.
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Old 10-08-2007, 18:33   #365
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Shot placement (and penetration) is the most important factor. Anyone who says otherwise is a fool.

Also, there are so many variables to consider outside of that (Drugs are one, but so is the individual), there's no science to it. It's not as simple an equation as some would have you believe. Sure you can say that perfect shot to CNS equals instant death, but it's just not always that simple...

Anyone who has been in combat can tell you that sometimes you can shoot a guy once and he will drop to the ground, whether the shot was fatal or not. Other times, you can shoot someone several times in the COM and they will continue to fight.

People have taken one shot w/ a .22 and dropped like a stone. There are USGI's that have been hit with several rounds of 8mm or 7.62x39 and lived to talk about it.

The bottom line is, when your life is on the line, shoot fast and accurate and don't stop until your opponent has stopped his attack...
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Old 10-08-2007, 19:14   #366
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Shot placement (and penetration) is the most important factor. Anyone who says otherwise is a fool.

Last edited by MOHAA Player; 12-05-2007 at 16:48..
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Old 10-12-2007, 16:16   #367
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myth vs real life

Quote:
Originally posted by taters
anyone who believes that someone who had a .44 magnum emptied into him and then killed the attacker also believes in the tooth fairy santa clause and the easter bunny. amazing how people could believe that kind of nonsense. the israeli mosad; when they tracked down the killers of the israeli team at munich used guns to assasinate the plo killers. guess what caliber they used to kill all those arab terrorists?.22 s yes you read that right .israeli assination squads useds .22s exclusively. so don't believe that nonsense that if you shoot someone 4-5 times with a .45 that they will keep on coming. they are going down every time!!!!!taters

How many crime scenes have you attended? How many gun shot victims have you interviewd? How about this? Ask a street veteran of 20 plus years whos worked the streets of detroit, Washington DC, Los Angeles or any violent city who has literally 100's of shootings. I find it instructive, those who argue the point and come up with statements like hit men use the 22 exclusively are people who have never had to shoot someone, or be shot at in the course of employment. Fact is the .22 is not the only weapond used by so called hit men, that's movie promoted fantasy to promote the idea that all hit men use a silencer. You remember the movies where they put silencers on magnum revolvers and stupidity like that, right? My employment put me on the streets of Detroit, I have seen many shootings, and seen people die from a single hit of a .25 and have seen people in Detroit recieveing Hospital with numerous gunshot wounds survive what should not be survivable. Shot placement is important as the case of the 44 magnum most of his hits were gut shots with nothing more than pass through would and some serious intestinal damage. had he taked a .22 in the spine he would most likely not have made it. I assumed everyone in here had enough intellect to grasp the point without me getting out the crayons. Shot placement is always a "given" and never to be lft out of the equasion, a magnum round grazing your buttocks is obviously not as serious as a 22 in the brain, but I assumed we are all adults here. And I assumed that shot placement would be a given, thats why in one of my posts i ridiculed the idea of someone gettting hit in the pinky finger and flying accross the room! Instead of petty insults and inane comments from people who have never seen a shooting scene, or have been involved in either a real fire fight, and spent the vast majority of their lives working a desk job or on an injection molding machine in a plastics factory claiming to know all. Let's have some serious conversation. I will trust the NIJ/Dept of Justice crime scene investigations over Joe the Janitors mythical fantasy of what really may almost possibly happen in a theorehtical movie gun fight. With out going into my entire littany of details of my career, I will give you the basics, I have worked as a detective, and bail agent after retirement. I spent 39 years living in the inner city of Detroit, and not the suburbs 50 miles away. I when a civilian before I was age 18 saw more shootings, dead bodies than most suburban officers have in an entire career in Law Enforcement. I know all the well that fresh smell of death. So if you have never been involved in a shooting, been shot, or have witnessed many shottings I will give this advice. Don't take your buddy's rumor of a rumor that came from his uncles, cousins, grandfathers, sisters, boyfriends account of what might have happned. Any deer hunter of many years can demonstrate that even what seems like the most perfect shot placement sometimes has resulted in that deer running off and either never found, or found days later sometimes a mile away from the shot. Look at the REAL data, compiled by REAL professionals and then use commons sense and it will tell you that in many occasions even the venerable big bores fail to bring them down right away, and in a gun fight that oftens lasts mere seconds in REAL life, you don't have time for someone to bleed out. Cover, shot placement, bore, velocity and penetration are all factors. And to the one who promotes penetration as the ultimate, thats completely wrong. In war many many thousands are wounded even with torso shots that fail to incapacitate or kill. And those round penetrate many times more that a handgun round. The secret is how much energy of the projectile is "expended" in the body, and not passed through. Many rounds simply pass through, thus I stated there is not just one consideration. Cover, shot placement, bore, velocity and penetration are all factors, and why do I say cover? That's obvious, it takes less than a second for the other persons rounds to hit you.
The human body for all we know of it is still sometimes a mystery, how some can take incredible trauma and survive, and some like that Famous French Mountain climber who died when he slipped and fell off his bike while it wasn't even moving... Some things can never be explained, and no handgun is the ultimate. I prefer my 10MM for the reasons stated ( bore, velocity and penetration ) Some prefer the 45, now I moved to a slightly more country setting to retire, and I am more likely to be confronted by some drunk psycho with a deer rifle or shotgun, or Pissed off Elk, Deer, or Bear, and yes even a vehical. So the 10MM will serve me better due to the increased pennetration with the loads I made for it. Saying all this, talk to that EMS driver in Detroit who has treated many gun shot victims, or that street officer who has been there 20 plus years, not Dirty Harry a creation of some movie director who never held a gun in his life...

Oh to the assertion that the 22 is the most used hit mans weapon of choice, NOT true, in most cities the use 9MM, 45, it doesnt matter because no one tells, no one see's anything, they walk right up to you in a crowd and empty a gun into you and walk away and that crowd soon has memory problems, thats reality! The 45 acp has often been used with a silencer in the ""mafia"" style hits also. The 45 is actually a far better "hitman's" weapon in real life when a silencer is employed for the most obvious reasons... I don't need to get the crayons out to explain this? Do I?

...I answered several posts with just this one, forgive my long winded approach, I didn't see the need to write 8 different posts..

Forgive my typos I was in a hurry and didn't see a spell checker...
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Old 10-12-2007, 16:34   #368
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Quote:
Originally posted by RMTactical
Shot placement (and penetration) is the most important factor. Anyone who says otherwise is a fool.

Also, there are so many variables to consider outside of that (Drugs are one, but so is the individual), there's no science to it. It's not as simple an equation as some would have you believe. Sure you can say that perfect shot to CNS equals instant death, but it's just not always that simple...

Anyone who has been in combat can tell you that sometimes you can shoot a guy once and he will drop to the ground, whether the shot was fatal or not. Other times, you can shoot someone several times in the COM and they will continue to fight.

People have taken one shot w/ a .22 and dropped like a stone. There are USGI's that have been hit with several rounds of 8mm or 7.62x39 and lived to talk about it.

The bottom line is, when your life is on the line, shoot fast and accurate and don't stop until your opponent has stopped his attack...

this quote (((Shot placement (and penetration) is the most important factor. Anyone who says otherwise is a fool.)) makes everyone in law enforcement and all the FBI wound ballistics peoples fools then. Other than shot placement which should be a given! A grazing hit to ones BUTT CHEEK would not be considered a good placed shot, so that I agree on. But at Quantico they disagree with penetration and so does the Military. The effect a penetration is ONLY part of the equation. The ammount of energy that is expended into the body is the crucial factor! This is one of many considerations, velocity, pennetration, Bore size either by expansion or pure bore/bullet diameter, and the ammont of shock trauma to the central nervous system. If Penetration was the only factor other than shot placement then the full metal jacket 9MM should do well, but we all know thats completely disproven, with many NIJ studies of bad boys taking many rounds of 9MM FMJ and still fighting for considerable amounts of time. The closest one can get to a one shot incapacitating hit the better. That's Obvious right?

I agree with the rest of your statements those are proven in battle many thousands of times over. Penetration is only one of many factors. Energy expended on the body is the ultimate factor of you want a single answer. How much "shock trauma" will the bullet expend. Shutting down the central nervous system is crucial to stopping a gun battle. I you have encounted a mentally ILL person you will be shocked at what it taked to incapacitate them sometimes, not even someone on PCP can equal what a seriously mentally ILL person can take, in some cases..

You are right there are many factors....

..
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Old 10-12-2007, 17:39   #369
taters
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sorry pal but you are way wrong. read the book not the movie. the mosad used 22s exclusively.not my opinion just fact.i grew up in one of the worst sections of nyc and spent 2 years in viet nam as a grunt. maybe not as good a resume as your but sufficient. hit someone with a .45 more than once and he is going down. and that's my last response. i just can't take the ignorance anymore....
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Old 10-14-2007, 15:37   #370
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I just read through this entire thread and wanted to chime in.

I used to ride with a buddy while he was on duty on the weekends and one night a 17 year old kid about 160 pounds and 5'10" tall took four .45 acp rounds to the chest. He got in his car, drove to the hospital and walked in under his own power and said that he had been shot. Five days later he drove himself home. I was standing there when my buddy took the report at the hospital.

I also had a cousin that was killed while at a car wash. Some gang members walked up to him and shot him once with a .25 auto to the head and he dropped so fast he never even let go of the spray wand. He was 6'5" 300 pounds.

Placement and luck, that is what it is all about.
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Old 10-14-2007, 16:00   #371
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anyone who believes a 160 pound kid took 4 bullets of .45 caliber in the chest and drove to the hospital and then was released 5 days later should check himself into a mental hospital. how could anyone believe nonsense like this fairy tale?amazing
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Old 10-14-2007, 16:02   #372
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Well I guess because I was standing there.
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Old 10-14-2007, 16:16   #373
taters
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and what were you smoking when you were standing there? i guess the guy drove himself home from the hospital 5 days later because he was a good guy and did not have any charges against him. i guess he also had not one friend who would come to the hospital and pick him up since he was only shot 4 times in the chest with a .45....lol u guys do make me laugh ... keep the fiction coming, thanks ,taters
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Old 10-15-2007, 10:25   #374
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anyone who believes a 160 pound kid took 4 bullets of .45 caliber in the chest and drove to the hospital and then was released 5 days later should check himself into a mental hospital.
I agree
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Old 10-15-2007, 11:34   #375
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It really does depend on shot placement. Now that story probably was exaggerated a bit, but its still possible that he survived and got out a week later. Not a likly scenario but still (barely) possible.
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Old 10-21-2007, 01:37   #376
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RMTactical View Post

Hollywood and TV, for the non-gun person, does more to ensure the shot-and-drop myth is passed on from generation to generation. In gun circles, it's used as a basis for determing better and worse. We all want to think we have the best, to pad our ego or otherwise. Reality is so much more complicated than the one on paper, but, given a large enough sample size, the effect of spurious variables are mitigated and the resulting data set has validity. You can't look case-to-case, but instead at the bigger picture over time. Reliable incapacitation by a handun is about what is physically destroyed by the hole. Period.
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Last edited by cole; 10-21-2007 at 23:59.. Reason: forgot "by" the hole. Opps.
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Old 10-29-2007, 18:47   #377
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Reliable incapacitation by a handgun is about what is physically destroyed by the hole. Period.
That's exactly how my old man put it to me when he gave me my first handgun: a browning hi-power. Course, I took confidence in his opinion given that he was a physician and understood wound anatomy from ER work. Bought me a 17 round mag to go with the 13s and learned to shoot accurately fast. I'm no pro, but I know what I'm aiming for here, not some elusive particular caliber or gun setup, but practice, practice, practice. I love this realization given that it will be the sweetest driving force for buying plenty of ammo for life.
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Old 11-08-2007, 18:38   #378
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bailenforcer View Post
At close range I prefer my Benelli Tactical 12 gauge loaded with Number 4 Buck shot as it's a proven man stopper, and yes even better than 00 Buck!! Thst's not to say 00 isn't good, it's just proved the added pellets of 4 buckshot delivers far faster and more devastaing shock trauma wounds.
I have a Mossberg 88 12-gauge. When I lived in California a decade ago my good friend, a Vietnam vet and former Army rifle team member, told me to load it with #4 buckshot.

Today is the first time I've seen anybody but him endorse that particular shell. It's always, "Go with 000 buck, or 00 buck, etc...", but it always made sense in the way he explained it to me.

Quote:
"Shooting an attacker with #4 buckshot is like shooting him with a full box of .22s at once."
I have no doubt the other loads are deadly but if the #4 won't stop an attacker then the victim better get away as fast as he/she can.
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Old 11-11-2007, 03:44   #379
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No doubt, that's why you cannot just shoot someone once. You've GOT to shoot until the perp is no longer a threat. One or two shots to the chest MAY not be enough to get the job done and there are too many variables. Some to consider, some that can't be worked into the equation until AFTER.
What i would do is shoot the guy in the head if i shoot him in the chest more than 2 times and he is still standing.
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Old 11-12-2007, 16:12   #380
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I have a Mossberg 88 12-gauge. When I lived in California a decade ago my good friend, a Vietnam vet and former Army rifle team member, told me to load it with #4 buckshot.

.
For close range encounters, the #4 buck works well, but, #1 buck gives better penetration beyond 15 yards...
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