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Old 06-19-2007, 21:45   #341
taters
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one shot

i can't believe some of you guys believe someone could get hit with 5 rounds of .45 and say they felt like bee stings. 9 out of 10 bad guys hit with a .45 go down after one shot. thats not me just making stuff up thats police statistics.8 out of 10 bad guys go down after 2 shots with a .40.....9mm is a whole different story.don't believe these fairy tales. you get hit with a 230 grain hydro shoc .45 bullet you are out of the fight no matter how good the pcp is you just smoked......
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Old 06-23-2007, 22:01   #342
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Re: one shot

Quote:
Originally posted by taters
i can't believe some of you guys believe someone could get hit with 5 rounds of .45 and say they felt like bee stings. 9 out of 10 bad guys hit with a .45 go down after one shot. thats not me just making stuff up thats police statistics.8 out of 10 bad guys go down after 2 shots with a .40.....9mm is a whole different story.don't believe these fairy tales. you get hit with a 230 grain hydro shoc .45 bullet you are out of the fight no matter how good the pcp is you just smoked......
WOW you must have info that no one else can get a hold of about the 230gr 45acp Fed HS.Can you please provide us with any proof at all that the Fed 230gr HS stops everyone no matter what with one hit every time.It's funny how soldiers in war continue to fight back after taken hits from AK's,M16's,AR's,grenade fragments but the 45acp will stop a fight every time.
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Old 06-25-2007, 21:36   #343
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Re: what do you all think about this?

Quote:
Originally posted by gonnagetmine
i dont know if anyone's linked this yet, i didn't go through all 14 pages

http://www.handloads.com/misc/stoppi....asp?Caliber=0

look at all the ~90% ONE shot stops
In the table it lists 9mm and 9mm+P and 9mm+P+.

What's the difference?
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Old 06-27-2007, 19:15   #344
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hit 5 times

in the history of the world no man ever kept coming after being hit with 5 230 grain hydro shoc 45.and then said they felt like bee stings. how anyone could believe that is beyond my comprehension
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Old 06-27-2007, 19:18   #345
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thats fbi stats. 9 out of 10 bgs hit with a .45 are stopped. 8 out of 10 bgs are stopped after being shot with .40 check it out
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Old 06-29-2007, 19:40   #346
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Originally posted by taters
thats fbi stats. 9 out of 10 bgs hit with a .45 are stopped. 8 out of 10 bgs are stopped after being shot with .40 check it out
Link to stats please?
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Old 06-29-2007, 19:54   #347
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stopping power

i have the article. it is based on the hatcher report. i got it when i took the 4 day handgun course at frontsight in pahrump nevada. i will sendit to you if you want but you must return it to me as it is the only copy i have.taters
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Old 07-02-2007, 18:53   #348
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just finished page one and realized over two hundred more post (at least) to go so maybe this was answered....what about a shot to the head? I got to believe a .45 acp to the head will drop even some one on pcp!
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Old 07-09-2007, 20:04   #349
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I got to believe a .45 acp to the head will drop even some one on pcp!
Any service caliber 9mm thru 45acp with there top loads should end in the same result when talking head shots.
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Old 07-10-2007, 14:37   #350
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Re: hit 5 times

Quote:
Originally posted by taters
in the history of the world no man ever kept coming after being hit with 5 230 grain hydro shoc 45.and then said they felt like bee stings. how anyone could believe that is beyond my comprehension
Hey, it could happen, just ask the expert:

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Old 07-23-2007, 18:16   #351
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Re: Re: hit 5 times

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Originally posted by 360
Hey, it could happen, just ask the expert:

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Old 07-29-2007, 18:39   #352
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Caliber VS. Number of rounds available

My belief is that if it is worth shooting once, it is worth shooting again, shoot 'till they stop moving (or, in my G/F's case, twitching)

S&W Sigma .40GVE, 14+1=PAIN

Murphy's Law: When in doubt, empty the magazine.
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Old 07-30-2007, 06:35   #353
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Re: Re: what do you all think about this?

Quote:
Originally posted by RandyWallace
In the table it lists 9mm and 9mm+P and 9mm+P+.

What's the difference?
+P is higher pressure and +P+ is higher still. Higher pressure as in chamber pressure. Basically, the charge is a little hotter. Recommended pressure for standard 9mm is 35,000 PSI and +P is 38,500 PSI.

For a bullet of a given weight the +P should generate a higher velocity than standard 9mm and +P+ should generate a higher velocity than +P.

I believe that +P is a saami standard and +P+ is not a standard. Personally, I stay away from the +P+ stuff but I do use +P. IIRC 9mm Glocks are rated for +P.

For self defense, if you go with a +P with a lighter bullet, like a 115gr, you should have a pretty decent stopper there.

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Old 09-14-2007, 21:56   #354
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I think Jeff Cooper said it best - "Owning a handgun doesn't make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician.

Its what you do with it that counts.

Regards

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Old 09-21-2007, 13:49   #355
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Kinetic Energy = 1/2 Mass x Velocity squared.

Doubling the mass doubles the kinetic energy, but doubling the velocity quadruples the kinetic energy.

A small caliber bullet traveling as a high speed can produce a more extensive injury than a large caliber bullet traveling at a lower speed. Velocity is the key factor in the extend of the injury, because contributes more to the kinetic energy produced than does the mass.

This is just one reason to consider use +P ammo in the range of 1200 fps velocity in the range of 400 ft lbs of kinetic energy for a 9mm hollow point.

Some Popular High Energy 9mm hollow points include:

Winchester Ranger +P+ 115 gr is rated at 1320 fps and 444 ft lbs
CorBon +P 115 gr is rated at 1317 fps and 442 ft lbs
Speer Gold Dot +P 124 gr is rated at 1223 fps and 411 ft lbs
Speer Gold Dot 115 gr is rated at 1259 fps and 404 ft lbs
Federal HST +P 124 gr is rated at 1200 fps and 395 ft lbs

It's no wonder all of these cartridges are so highly rated, because they produce about 400 ft lbs of kinetic energy.

Compare these numbers to some popular 147 gr 9mm bullets:

Winchester Ranger Talon 147 gr is rated at 1017 fps and 337 ft lbs
Federal HydraShok 147 gr is rated at 935 fps and 285 ft lbs
Speer Gold Dot 147 gr is rated at 924 fps and 278 ft lbs

The 147 gr 9mm bullets don't produce anywhere near the 400 ft lbs of energy produced by the lighter, faster bullets. Velocity is the key factor to producing the most kinetic energy.

Bullet design, expansion and penetration depth are also considering factors when choosing a cartridge.

Source: FBI terminal ballistic testing data
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Old 09-22-2007, 10:12   #356
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He fired two to the chest, but he forgot the head. Remember what the Mozambique drill was designed for. I need some +P SJ-ESC loads...
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Old 09-22-2007, 14:51   #357
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hand gun myths

I have seen so many NIJ studies in the past 2 decades that I would NOT rely on a hand gun as a primary weapon for defense, let alone offense. In the last 100 years we can draw a conclusion there is no RULE on how the human body reacts to gun shot wounds. From WWI, WW@ and forward we can find 1000's of accounts where men have been hit even with machine gun fire and still survived long enough to take out the shooter. This is the best advice I can give, take cover always if possible, shoot to stop and don't stop shooting till the bad actor is down. Even then don't leave cover until you are certain the bad actor is completely incapacitated. Yes even on the ground he can get to a backup and kill you as you approach. Take this advice as even a deer hunter knows that after a deer hit with multiple 30-06 rounds have been known to lie there looking as if it was deceased and then suddenly attacked violently. I prefer the 10MM, why? It has the best combination of 3 important factors. 1. caliber, bore size, and wound channel opening. Yes the biger the hole the better, but thats not all thats needed. 2. velocity! this is important, the higher the velocity in a hand gun the better chance of shock trauma, causing the bad actor to go into shock, reducung his ability to effectively fight back. Theres More! 3. Energy! this is a combination of several factors I will name a few, bullet weight, velocity and the energy expended in the body before the bullet leaves. The bullet has a certain amount of energy as it leaves the barrel and whats important is how much of the energy will be directly applied to the human body. Now I did say this a little different that the calculator carrying ballistic nerds who never had to first hand witness and or participate in gun battles. But imagine this, you have a kids plactic baseball bat and a louisville slugger, now they are exactly the same size, which one will take the bad guy out with a single blow? Theres going to be a test on this so get it right. Obviously the slugger, made of a heavy dense wood. The slugger will have more energy.
I have a different way of explaining things but you get the point I am sure. Don't always rely on nerds who have no real life experiences throwing figures at you, these figures can never compensate for real life exprerieces and common sense, they can only be an additional aid in the design and application of the caliber for the job.
I prefer the 10mm because it has the best combination of velocity, bullet weight, and bullet diameter to do the job. Problem is, instead of spending the money on training they have opted to compensate by lowering the levels so anyone can qualify with the lesser .40 cal which is basically a weal 10MM.
I when in harms way always carry my Benelli Tactical, or if I am able to, I carry a HK 91. In a urban enviorment the HK 91 might be over kill, but then the CAR 15 is used.

Never be a hero, or take risks, heros are for television and movies, and most of them wind up dead. If you are dead you can't help anymore
and your death will send a cold chill down the spine of anyone thinking about helping stop the violence.
Take cover, make sure theres not hidden accomplices, and vests on the bad actors. More and more bad guys are wearing vests!! Another reason to have a long gun ready. A hand gun should only be a last resort weapon.

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Old 09-22-2007, 15:14   #358
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Re: one shot

Quote:
Originally posted by taters
i can't believe some of you guys believe someone could get hit with 5 rounds of .45 and say they felt like bee stings. 9 out of 10 bad guys hit with a .45 go down after one shot. thats not me just making stuff up thats police statistics.8 out of 10 bad guys go down after 2 shots with a .40.....9mm is a whole different story.don't believe these fairy tales. you get hit with a 230 grain hydro shoc .45 bullet you are out of the fight no matter how good the pcp is you just smoked......
You don't have to believe it, but history is full of first hand acounts that have been verified, and the National Institute of Justice ( NIJ ) has done exhaustive studies and yes it has happned and will continue to happen. I even have first hand knowledge if similer situations with the Detroit Police Dept and the City covering up accounts where the .40 cal has literally bounced of assailents heavy coats and windshields. After talking to Federal and hearing the denials and knowing the truth, I would advise you take a harder look instead of believeing myths. Remember LIABILITY is the number one factor why we are lied to. There are also NIJ studies of the 45acp hollow points not taking down bad guys. Remember this, as much as I love the 45 acp, I know the velocity is often not enough to make the hollow points expand, and a un-expanded hollow point is nothing more than a FMJ in it efectiveness. My experiences prove that unless the bullet at the muzzle exceeds 1200 FPS the hollow point is unpredictable in its ability to open up if it hits soft tissue. Remember a chest shot will NEVER gurantee a bone hit, many times that hollow point passes between ribs and effectively is only a soft tissue wound. Don't believe people who spend their lives reading and sitting on the internet. Believe the ten of thousands of us who have been there. Common sense should always prevail. Computer statistics and models are not real life.
There was a celebrated case in the early 70's where a punk broke into a home in Detroit and the punk empties a 44 magnum st point blank range into a home owner, and that home owner literally killed the punk afterwards with his bare hands. That home owner survived! the Punk didn't. I found it hard to believe and for a few years thought it might have been exaggerated or maybe it was a 22 pistol till one day I met that homeowner. I now believe it because it was true. Maybe it was the hand of God, pure luck, or just Karama finally coming back on that punk, we will never know... Theres many many accounts of men taking whats should have been instant death hits and survived. Some things can never be explianed. But this I know, there is NO magic bullet!
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Old 10-02-2007, 17:57   #359
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WOW

the guy survived more than one .44 mag being shot into him? That is amazing. Very hard to believe though. Those things are very powerful.
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Old 10-05-2007, 14:57   #360
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Re: WOW

Quote:
Originally posted by Adam44516
the guy survived more than one .44 mag being shot into him? That is amazing. Very hard to believe though. Those things are very powerful.
This is really not unusual as it might seem. Too many gun lovers watch way too many Arnold movies where someone gets hit on the pinky finger with a round and their body flies through the air, hollywood BS. Whe I was 15 my not so bright buddy accidentally discharged a rifle in my chest, I had no idea I was hit and proceeded to ***** at him for being so stupid telling him what if someone got hit, while he stared at me in shock. It was a few minutes later that I felt a slight burning sensation and a warm feeling on my stomach, when I looked down I saw my white T shirt was now red. I quickly left in my car and drove to Detroit Metropolitan Hospital ER, and I have so say the worst part of the whole ordeal were the two Detroit Police officers yelling at me while I was being wheeled on a gurney "who shot you son, who shot you?" Hollywood has always exaggerated shootings to the point that gun owners think that guns are somehow magic. The National Institute of Justice has many many examples where people on PCP and other drugs took many rounds and still fought back. At close range I prefer my Benelli Tactical 12 gauge loaded with Number 4 Buck shot as it's a proven man stopper, and yes even better than 00 Buck!! Thst's not to say 00 isn't good, it's just proved the added pellets of 4 buckshot delivers far faster and more devastaing shock trauma wounds.

I say all this because I have seen enough shootings living and working Detroit that I will trust no hand gun as a "primary" weapon, and only as a last ditch defense weapon. I have seen several street thugs shot several times *****ing and complaining when the medics try and help them, some may eventually bleed out and die, but thats a LONG wait when they are shooting back. Big bore plus high velocity and a good hollow point makes a better stopper. But not a perfect and foolproof weapon..
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