[blackbirdzach]

Great article! I'm glad this stayed on the first few pages after these few years.

[brianm_14]

It's illuminating . ..

[Guser]

There was a fatal shooting of a Dallas police officer two days ago. Three officers were trying to serve a high-risk arrest warrant when a bad guy fired one shot through the door, striking the officer in the face. The officer died an hour later.

News reports failed to say what caliber weapon was involved.

American Justice, the tv program, did a segment Monday on a 1978 drug raid that went bad. A druggie, who claimed he thought he was being robbed, fired a .38-caliber revolver once through his back door. A Texas Ranger, who was standing in the yard, was struck in the head and died on the spot.

These two items are just a reminder that, yes, every shooting is different, and that a shot to the face/head will generally drop a man.

I sometimes get caught up in the debates about caliber effectiveness, but it seems for naught when real world shootings show how shot placement wins the day.

[Wasatch]

Originally Posted by Guser

There was a fatal shooting of a Dallas police officer two days ago. Three officers were trying to serve a high-risk arrest warrant when a bad guy fired one shot through the door, striking the officer in the face. The officer died an hour later.

News reports failed to say what caliber weapon was involved.

American Justice, the tv program, did a segment Monday on a 1978 drug raid that went bad. A druggie, who claimed he thought he was being robbed, fired a .38-caliber revolver once through his back door. A Texas Ranger, who was standing in the yard, was struck in the head and died on the spot.

These two items are just a reminder that, yes, every shooting is different, and that a shot to the face/head will generally drop a man.

I sometimes get caught up in the debates about caliber effectiveness, but it seems for naught when real world shootings show how shot placement wins the day.

All good points, Guser.

From what I've read and seen regarding the fantastic and consistent performance of modern hollowpoint ammunition, I've concluded that the effectiveness of 9mm vs .40 vs .45 is similar enough that I made my decision primarily based on the price of ammo and magazine capacity. The 9mm wins in my book.

Simply put, I'm a cheapskate accountant who wouldn't go to the range nearly as often to practice/train if I had to buy .40 or .45 ammunition. With shot placement being king in what seems to be the vast majority of the time, I think it's a matter of becoming proficient with your chosen firearm rather than a 9mm-vs-.40/.45 debate. So as I see it, I end up being more proficient with my G19 than if I were to carry a G23 or G30. Couple that with 15+1 capacity, throw in an extra magazine, and I have 31 Gold Dots versus 21 or 27 rounds with the larger calibers.

[unit1069]

Originally Posted by Patronus

Simply put, I'm a cheapskate accountant who wouldn't go to the range nearly as often to practice/train if I had to buy .40 or .45 ammunition. With shot placement being king in what seems to be the vast majority of the time, I think it's a matter of becoming proficient with your chosen firearm rather than a 9mm-vs-.40/.45 debate. So as I see it, I end up being more proficient with my G19 than if I were to carry a G23 or G30. Couple that with 15+1 capacity, throw in an extra magazine, and I have 31 Gold Dots versus 21 or 27 rounds with the larger calibers.

You're not a cheapskate! You're a trained professional who understands and practices the virtue of frugality. (That's how my wife defends me, at any rate.)

The .357sig is my favorite caliber but I own two 9mm pistols. My opinion is that 9mm, .357, .40, .45, and above are all powerful enough to do the job in the vast majority of civilian self-defense situations. What you wrote is exactly correct although I think capacity is a minor consideration. Most self-defense shootings occur within mere seconds and involve an average of 3-5 rounds expended.

Most of the caliber quibbling comes from specific applications. It's useless to argue; better to explain your viewpoint and leave it at that. It all comes down to personal preference anyway, and who is dumb enough to question someone else's self-defense responsibility and choices? For example, I feel perfectly comfortable with 9mm and no spare mag in my everyday routine. When I go to the remote cabin, however, it's the .357sig with the two spare mags that go with me.

[bnlchris18]

Ok, I'm going to clear up a few misconceptions about pelvis shots over COM or Mozambique Drills (2 sternum, 1 head).

#1, the odds of a perp returning fire after being hit in the pelvis 2-3 times is EXTREMELY unlikely. They would be a medical miracle if they could. The amount of shock to the body, not to mention the brain can't even be described.

#2, the point of a pelvis shot is to stop the attacker RIGHT NOW!!! You can shoot me in the chest and destroy my heart, yet I will have enough oxygenated blood in my brain to empty my magazine in your direction. (almost said clip on that one, lol!)

#3, there are almost more major arteries, especially the femoral arteries, guess what, the largest arteries in our bodies, about the size of your thumb, located in the pelvis region than anywhere else in the human body.

#4, you can line up a firearm with the pelvis region faster than you can draw and lineup at COM, especially in a stressfull enviorment. This is great, considering you only have a few precious seconds in which to defend yourself against an armed attacker trying to flat line you.

#5, my instructors, several of which were in the armed forces, told me in a couple of tactical courses that you only COM when a target is at an extended range, and you engage the pelvis and subsequently the sternum and head in CQB, when you don't have time to wait for the BG to die from blood loss or perforated lungs.

#6, the pelvis is the easiest part of the human body to lead. It is simply anatomy. A persons torso will change position several times during an engagement, ie. turning side to side, crouching, bending over, etc. While, the pelvis however, is always stationary, and even a shot hitting the side of the pelvis, still has a good chance to disrupt several nerves and arteries, not to mention, well the pelvis!

#7, people have been shot several times in the chest with calibers ranging from .22LR to the ol' .30 GI round, while still returning fire. Many of our millitary officials have opted then, to teach recruits controlled pairs, shoot, re-align sights, quicly fire again at the COM ONLY if the target is at an extended range, they teach pelvis shots if the target is at a closer more "dangerous range," using a double tap method, no re-alignment of sights after first shot.


#8, unless you are a highly trained member in a HRT/SWAT team/SOCOM, then head shots are highly unlikely to land in a combat situation, unless the target is within 5-10 yards, and even then, it's still not a sure thing, especially considering the fact if you miss, you could hit the proverbial innocent bystander.

#9, I run three drills. One is an extremely close engagement 5-10 yards, three shots to pelvis, two to sternum, re-align, one to the CNS. The other drill is for 10-25 yards, two to pelvis, two to sternum, one to CNS if perp doesn't sieze aggresion. Last is 25+ yards, controlled pair two to pelvis, one to sternum, re-align, followed by subsequent controlled pairs to sternum and pelvis untill target drops.

I hope I have shed some light on the idea of pelvis shots as opposed to the more outdated COM. It is what it is.

[bnlchris18]

I would like to add, as far as personal experience goes, I served four years in the volunteer program, Mahal 2000, and IDF all volunteer group dedicated to Jewish Americans and others abroad to train and fight with the Israeli Defense Force. I spent about four months alone living the "kibbutz" style of communal living, learning Hebrew, and intergrating myself in their culture. I will say this, I have never met a more qualified and dedicated people intent on protecting their homeland from external and internal aggressors. I served in the Scout/Sniper program for two years. We would often use modified Ruger 10/22's and M24 SWS's. My detachment had one engagement in the beloved Gaza strip and we had over 4-5 engagements on the West Bank. Oh, and by the way, they had us training on old Mauser K98's with the Nazi markings dremeled off and converted to 7.62 NATO. The idea was to save the wear and tear of DMR's and sniper rifles for war not for training.

Shana tova, laila tov!

[JohnnyEnigma]

If I have to shoot a BG more than once with my 500 S&W, I will gladly pay for his funeral

[Glocker08]

Originally Posted by JohnnyEnigma

If I have to shoot a BG more than once with my 500 S&W, I will gladly pay for his funeral

"S&W 500 Mag. When you absolutely, positively must stop an elephant driving a truck, AND the truck".

[W4CNG]

I am a proponent of the two to the body and one to the head (Mozambique Drill) and repeat if necessary with the 4th Sight Picture to repeat quickly. I intend to win any Gun fight that I am forced into, as I will not start it, but I will end it at all costs. Practice and train Hard because life is full of challenges.

[uz2bUSMC]

#1, the odds of a perp returning fire after being hit in the pelvis 2-3 times is EXTREMELY unlikely. They would be a medical miracle if they could. The amount of shock to the body, not to mention the brain can't even be described.

#2, the point of a pelvis shot is to stop the attacker RIGHT NOW!!! You can shoot me in the chest and destroy my heart, yet I will have enough oxygenated blood in my brain to empty my magazine in your direction. (almost said clip on that one, lol!)

The pelvis shot will only stop his bipedally privelaged movement not his trigger finger. Headshot does all of the above. Even though it may seem unlikely that he would return fire after a shattered pelvis, it is still possible. That possibility must be taken away... headshot.

[CableRouter]

Originally Posted by sneakyracer

I understand the reason not allowing rapid fire, there are a lot of boneheads that go to the range so the range has to factor in for the lowest denominator so to speak.

One only has to look at all the holes in the sound baffles on the ceiling to see how bad of a shot some people are. At my range there are holes in the plastic shell holder shelves in the lanes.

Every few times I sneak in a little rapid fire as my last string of the session. What are they going to do, ask me to leave? After seeing me put all my rounds in a 8 inch circle I usually get a "Nice shooting, but slow it down a little ok?" to which I put on a big smile and reply "No problem at all, I'm done for the day."

[JBP55]

bnlchris18,
You stated ( in post #431) you run an Extremely Close Engagement drill of 5-10 Yards.
An extremely close engagement in my opinion would be less than 1 yard. At extremely close range you can touch someone.

[bnlchris18]

I guess in my view, someone with a gun trying to kill me from 5 to 10 yards out is extrremely close. I term knife type distance as CQB. Anyway, I understand that the pelvis when shot a couple of times won't prevent the attacker from reflexively pull the trigger, it will however, at least give you much better odds compared to bringing your weapon from it's holster, often concealed, then bringing the weapon all the way up to the head level, then making a head shot on a moving target. All in seconds.

The fact is, I can pull my Glock 26 from it's holster and begin fireing starting at the pelvis region, then zippering the rounds up along with the recoil faster, than bringing the gun all the way up to the head. Now, the pelvis shot is intended to buy you time, to make that CNS shot. It is easier to aim at and shoot a human pelvis than even the center of mass or toso hits, also the pelvis is the foundation of the body, bring it down, and you will have a greater oppurtunity to make more precise shots, such as CNS or sternum.

Everything I've been describing in this thread is definately a tried and true practice used in Special Forces and security agencies around the world.

I hope this is starting to make sense.

[Dashes]

Notice the calibers which are more common, have higher numbers.

I wish they would report the total shootings INVOLVING EACH CALIBER as well as total slain with each caliber.

I feel like that'd give you a more accurate view of what has been the most effective, in a real life scenario, as opposed to saying 92 were killed with a 9mm and one with a 10mm with out specifing how many times each were used period.

It says 1 was killed with a 10mm. I can almost guarantee that was 1/1.

[Wasatch]

Originally Posted by Dashes

Notice the calibers which are more common, have higher numbers.

I wish they would report the total shootings INVOLVING EACH CALIBER as well as total slain with each caliber.

I feel like that'd give you a more accurate view of what has been the most effective, in a real life scenario, as opposed to saying 92 were killed with a 9mm and one with a 10mm with out specifing how many times each were used period.

It says 1 was killed with a 10mm. I can almost guarantee that was 1/1.

Shot placement.

[PBR Sailor]

Originally Posted by Patronus

Shot placement.

Amen brother. Shot placement is the most critical issue in combat shooting............next to avoid getting shot of course.

[SIG229GotaLoveit]

I hear lots of people talk down about the 357SIG and problely becuses they own a 9mm or 40 and not a 357SIG. Dont feel bad I did the same when I had a 9mm for my CQB weapon. But at the end of the day the 357mag has had more police action shooting 1 shot stops "over 600" then any other cal useing the 125gr NOT the 158gr or 180gr but the 125gr. Yes i know the 357SIG does not offer heavy loads like the 158gr or 180gr will its not design to..its design to copy the 357mag in the 125gr load the "KING OF THE HILL" load. My tricked out SIG P229 with a 5 1/2in Bar-Sto barrel sends 125gr DT Gold Dots@1700fps and 60grRBCD loads@2600fps and when useing Gold Dot ammo there no need for heavy loads its going DEEP in live fleash. WHAT?? not good for small,med or large game?? Will it does a SUPERB job on Extreme DEADLY GAME like al-Qaeda militants. Low Recoil,Deep Pen,Very High Speed,High Energy,Great fight stopper and a SUPERB gun the SIG P-229 what more does one want. STAY SAFE!!

[SIG229GotaLoveit]

One would be foollish to take a pistol to a rifle fight....But one would be even more foollish not to have a pistol in a rifle fight!!!

[cowboy1964]

Originally Posted by ronim

if you want to knock the target down, you want a large slow moving bullet. You want to penetrate, you use a faster moving round.

A .45 ain't gonna "knock the target down". 9mm will penetrate a little more than a .45 but obviously the .45 will expand to a larger size. How much larger? MAYBE about 0.1"

[cowboy1964]

Originally Posted by taters

thats fbi stats. 9 out of 10 bgs hit with a .45 are stopped. 8 out of 10 bgs are stopped after being shot with .40 check it out

The chart I'm looking at shows .45 at 96%, .40 at 94%, and 9mm +P at 88%. Keep in mind those are the BEST one stop shots. If you drill down into the details the percentages vary widely. .45 has a range of 96% to 57%. .40 has a range of 94% to 61%. 9mm +P has a range of 88% to 80%. So a lot depends on the particular ammo too.

I just get annoyed by people thinking that a bullet that expands 0.1" more than another will somehow be wildly more effective. Shot placement is what is effective.

[slims00ls1z28]

Originally Posted by taters

well since my glock 36 with 180 corbon dpx might not stop a bg. i guess i am gonna just have to go and get a 500 smith&weson. of course i am sure i will get plenty of responses here that will tell me they personally know of cases where it did not do the job either.

Exactly why I'm no proponent of a blanket case "studies" in something such as OSS with too many variables. Hell luck is a huge one for either side. Such as the con locked up at the prison I work at carrying a .45 round in his skull from being shot point blank in the forehead. Then there's the video they showed us in training where a State Trooper struggles with a BG who had a .22 and shot the trooper under once the armpit. Trooper then managed to pull his .357 mag and shot the bg point blank in the face. BG lived (though he did stop immediatly) Trooper died within the hour. There's exceptions to just about everything.

The same goes for just about anything in life. BG's survive the damndest things that the ordinary joe would die of. My time in the ERT I saw drunks live in accidents worse than those of the average joe who died. Saw a chase one time (not on TV but up close and personal) where cops pitt maneuvered a fleeing robber, the car flipped numerous times ejected the dude then looked like it landed on top of him yet he got up and ran.

Personally I hope I'm never in a situation that I need a shootout. If I am, I'm hoping my familiarness with firearms, training and practice on my own, gets me on target first, and my luck holds out over the BG's. I know one thing, I'm not going to stop pulling the trigger until he's down or I can't pull it anymore, in which case I hope my wife will still be pulling her trigger.

[GreyEclipse]

The enemies will to live is probably the most important factor followed closely by shot placement.

To win a gunfight you need to have a stronger will to live than the enemy.
Its all adrenaline and mindset. You have to be a survivor.

There is NO one stop shot unless you're talking about Hollywood.
A gunfight isn't an execution. A .45 isn't gonna stop everyone in one shot every time. If it did then I'd go get a .45 and wouldn't bother with buying other calibers.

But you have to compromise with guns. That's the whole fun in it.
You pick what works for you. Personally, I find that just about anything will work if it fits my hand right. Of course, I've never been in a gunfight but I know that if I'm willing to shoot then I've gotta be willing to get hit. I'm no idiot. I'll try to survive if it ever comes to a gunfight. I'll try to stop it ASAP but this is the real world. Nothings a guarantee.

[KCabbage]

Originally Posted by slims00ls1z28

Then there's the video they showed us in training where a State Trooper struggles with a BG who had a .22 and shot the trooper under once the armpit. Trooper then managed to pull his .357 mag and shot the bg point blank in the face. BG lived (though he did stop immediatly) Trooper died within the hour. There's exceptions to just about everything.

It sounds like your refering to Trooper Mark Coates. If so, Coates fired 5 rounds of .357 Magnum 145 GR. Winchester Silvertips into the suspects chest. None of the rounds hit the suspects face. If I remember correctly the suspect showed hardly any effect when the rounds struck him. After being struck with all 5 rounds he fired the fatal shot that ended up killing Coates. Coates died within minutes.

[glock20c10mm]

Originally Posted by slims00ls1z28

Exactly why I'm no proponent of a blanket case "studies" in something such as OSS with too many variables. Hell luck is a huge one for either side. Such as the con locked up at the prison I work at carrying a .45 round in his skull from being shot point blank in the forehead. Then there's the video they showed us in training where a State Trooper struggles with a BG who had a .22 and shot the trooper under once the armpit. Trooper then managed to pull his .357 mag and shot the bg point blank in the face. BG lived (though he did stop immediatly) Trooper died within the hour. There's exceptions to just about everything.

The same goes for just about anything in life. BG's survive the damndest things that the ordinary joe would die of. My time in the ERT I saw drunks live in accidents worse than those of the average joe who died. Saw a chase one time (not on TV but up close and personal) where cops pitt maneuvered a fleeing robber, the car flipped numerous times ejected the dude then looked like it landed on top of him yet he got up and ran.

Personally I hope I'm never in a situation that I need a shootout. If I am, I'm hoping my familiarness with firearms, training and practice on my own, gets me on target first, and my luck holds out over the BG's. I know one thing, I'm not going to stop pulling the trigger until he's down or I can't pull it anymore, in which case I hope my wife will still be pulling her trigger.

Blah Blah Blah...........exceptions to the rule(s)..............and you also know you're not going to carry a 22 on purpose for SD even though they sometimes get the job done just as well as anything else.

Hopefully it never comes down to it, and if it does and one goes by a blanket case study they're probably just as well armed as the next guy anyway since I've never seen a blanket case study pushing anything less than 9mm.

Me personally, I'm interested in whatever does the most damage to a BG or animal that has decent round count per mag that I can shoot well. For me that's the 10mm. I don't need a case study to tell me it's the best choice for me. If the 10 didn't exist I'ld be carrying 357SIG.

Whatever anyone else chooses to carry is fine with me. It's their on the line, not mine, and whatever they're carrying will probably be relatively effective anyway except in the exceptions to the rule circumstances in which case my 10mm loads may fail to stop too. Hopefully I'll have the opportunity to start out with my Benelli 12ga anyway. If not, hopefully my 10mm will get me to the Benelli if not end the fight alltogether before I get there.


Good Shooting,
Craig