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Old 10-21-2006, 18:11   #241
Ebb27
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Re: Recoil Factor

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Originally posted by HILLSIDEBLUE


The punch he feels is exactly equal to the recoil you feel when firing the round..........Newton's law says that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.......There's no way around that..........

Not quite!

The bullet is ripping deep into flesh and creating a severe wound, the grip of your pistol isn't. The pistol is not opening up like a little metal parachute inside of your body like a hollow-point bullet does.

The energy levels may be similiar but the impact is not the same, nor is the reaction to that energy going to be the same.

In the article from Firearms-Tactical titled "The Myth of Energy Transfer", they too try to debunk the idea of energy transfer, but in the article they state that a 357magnum bullet feels roughly equivalent to getting hit with a baseball going 210 mph, and go on to point out that though the BG was shot several times with a 357mag it did not stop him.

Now I've shot .357magnum revolvers many, many times and it never felt like I was being hit in the hand with a baseball going 210 mph.

You're failling to take into account that all the bullet's energy will strike an area of less than half an inch and drive deep into the body destroying tissue and sensitive nerves. The grip of your pistol doesn't "normally" tear through the flesh and nerves of your hand.

The average pistol grip won't penetrate 12" to 18" through tissue the way a bullet will, so how can you possibly compare the impact of a bullet to the impact of a pistol grip???

Now if you stick a long nail or spike on the back of your grip then fire a round that might give you a better idea of how it might feel.
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Last edited by Ebb27; 10-21-2006 at 18:21..
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Old 10-21-2006, 18:36   #242
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This was an old argument when I started shooting What it all amounts to is, a projectile on matter if Bullet,an arrow,or a rock or bottle. can it hit hard enough to stop a determend attack? The answer to that is yes. A hard enough hit by any projectile will stop any determined attack, provided it can kill, disable, or other wise incapasitate the attacker. Many Many gunwriters and other wags have come up with theories as to why this happens. Big bullets that penitrate deep and disrupt the CNS smaller lighter bullets that go real fast and administer enough shock to disrupt the CNS. I think it is some of both, but the main factor is the CNS has got to be disrupted meaning the spine has to be severed or the brain has got to be killed eather by injury or loss of blood/oxygen. The mechinisim that causes this is only important as a point of argument.

Learn to shoot fast and accurately, under stress. I can garantee that you will never be attacked by a jug of water, or a block of clay. These mediums are good for testing a bullets reaction/penitration in a jug of water or a block of clay. Knowing this is good since you want your projectile to both penitrate deep enough to disrupt the spinal cord and cause enough shock from blood loss to disable/kill the brain.

Then we come to the whole consept of human Vs. animal we humans think/ reason/imagine animals do not.
Shoot a deer/coyote or any other animal it will run or try to run, it may try to attack you. A human on the other hand, is going to have a reaction sort of like. "Oh! A gunshot" "Wow I have been shot!!!" "BLOOD!!!!!!!!" " OH S***T I am BLEEDING" "I AM GOING TO DIE"
This reaction can lead to what is known as psyhcogenic(sp) shock. Any of you ever seen someone get a shot and pass out? Or pass out at just the sight or smell of blood? Thats it, the mind can with the proper mental stimulation cause the blood to rush out of the head in effect starving the brain causing the person to faint. I have seen that reaction to very minor wounds but on the other hand seen people with major injuries get up and walk around like nothing at all was wrong. That is the part of the mental side of stopping power. The thing is if you get into a lethal confrontation you want the best tools avalible that means the biggest, hardest hitting projectile you can get. Bigger /heavier = deeper penitration and more damage potential.
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Last edited by blinddog; 10-21-2006 at 18:38..
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Old 10-22-2006, 04:38   #243
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Bullets

I got a call one day to the old Meadowbrook Hospital building in East Meadow, Long Island.........
An off duty Registered nurse and her boyfriend were fooling around with a zip gun he had made........
He was loading it with what used to be called "CB Caps", a super short .22 load, smaller than your thumbnail.....
He pointed the zip gun at his girlfriend as a joke, but the gun went off, hitting her in the cheek, just under her eye...
When I got there she had a towel over her eye and I looked at the wound, told her she would be OK and drove her over to the Emergency Department in the police car.........
I really thought they could just pull the little bullet out of her eye socket, maybe in surgery, but I thought she would be OK...
One of the other cops stayed with the boyfriend......

After x-rays were done, the doctor told me that I should take a statement from the girl, who was about 25, and make sure I told her that she was not going to survive the accident..........The bullet was in her brain stem and would kill her in a matter of a couple of hours.....

I told her that I wanted a statement from her and she had to tell the truth about the incident and how she got shot, because the doctor told me she was not going to live and there was no surgery at that time involving the brain stem.......

I took a "Dying Declaration" statement that said her boyfriend had pointed the gun at her on purpose.............

Two hours later, I arrested him for MURDER.......

The CB caps he used were the same loads I used to fire in my basement into a phone book to play with my .22 target pistol.....They were probably the slowest, lightest firearm load there was at the time.........But the bullet, put in the right place, sure killed the nurse in less than three hours.........

Shot placement is pretty important..........

I carry a GLOCK 27 in .40 caliber now.....180 grain, bonded hollow points, but I wouldn't want to get hit with a CB cap either.......

It doesn't have to be a big, expanding round to do a lot of damage........If it hits the right place.........
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Old 10-22-2006, 07:43   #244
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Re: Bullets

Quote:
Originally posted by HILLSIDEBLUE
I got a call one day to the old Meadowbrook Hospital building in East Meadow, Long Island.........
An off duty Registered nurse and her boyfriend were fooling around with a zip gun he had made........
He was loading it with what used to be called "CB Caps", a super short .22 load, smaller than your thumbnail.....
He pointed the zip gun at his girlfriend as a joke, but the gun went off, hitting her in the cheek, just under her eye...
When I got there she had a towel over her eye and I looked at the wound, told her she would be OK and drove her over to the Emergency Department in the police car.........
I really thought they could just pull the little bullet out of her eye socket, maybe in surgery, but I thought she would be OK...
One of the other cops stayed with the boyfriend......

After x-rays were done, the doctor told me that I should take a statement from the girl, who was about 25, and make sure I told her that she was not going to survive the accident..........The bullet was in her brain stem and would kill her in a matter of a couple of hours.....

I told her that I wanted a statement from her and she had to tell the truth about the incident and how she got shot, because the doctor told me she was not going to live and there was no surgery at that time involving the brain stem.......

I took a "Dying Declaration" statement that said her boyfriend had pointed the gun at her on purpose.............

Two hours later, I arrested him for MURDER.......

The CB caps he used were the same loads I used to fire in my basement into a phone book to play with my .22 target pistol.....They were probably the slowest, lightest firearm load there was at the time.........But the bullet, put in the right place, sure killed the nurse in less than three hours.........

Shot placement is pretty important..........

I carry a GLOCK 27 in .40 caliber now.....180 grain, bonded hollow points, but I wouldn't want to get hit with a CB cap either.......

It doesn't have to be a big, expanding round to do a lot of damage........If it hits the right place.........
I see your point of shot placement,but bigger calibers will still do more damage and stop a attacker with less shots fired and that is a advantage that is worth the extra money to me.
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Old 10-22-2006, 10:13   #245
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That's true............I carry a .40 cal Model 27 with 180 grain Federal bonded hollowpoints for that reason.........

My next GLOCK will be a Model 20 in 10mm and heavier rounds (The heaviest that does at least 1000fps) for the night table and walks in the Florida woods.........Lots of pigs out there......
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Old 10-22-2006, 11:01   #246
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Small caliber bullets are suprisingly lethal, often more so than larger rounds. Unfortunately though it often takes awhile before they work their magic.

Bigger handgun calibers aren't necessarily any more lethal, but someone is a lot more likely to notice they've been shot with a .45 than with a .22 or at least worry more about it.

I know we've all been taught that "stopping-power" doesn't exist, but that's all bigger calibers really bring to the table, the same with HPs. Sure a larger caliber with HPs will create a more severe wound but unless that wound is to vital organs it won't be anymore lethal than a small caliber with FMJ. The increased chances of a pyschological reaction to the more severe wound is the principal advantage not increased lethality.

I think a lot of people feel that a gun gives you the power of life and death over someone, thus the more powerful the caliber the greater your power. In reality though you're just going to do someone an injury with a handgun. Possibly lethal but in most cases not.

Still though if I'm going to wound an attacker I prefer to wound them as severely as possible.
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Old 10-22-2006, 16:51   #247
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As I have posted before i have worked many cases involving gunshots. Small calibers accounted for many more dead folks than did the larger calibers. But I have seen many more people who were shot with a small caliber. So proportunantly the larger calibers are more deadly. Case in point 1. Two men get into an argument at a bar one is 6'5" and 300 lbs. The other is 5'9" and about 165. The smaller man is the aggressor in the argument because the larger man just don't want to hurt him, (from his own statement)
The bartender ends up throwing the smaller man out of the bar. Half hour later the larger man decides to go home. As he walks out the door the smaller man fires seven shots at him from twenty feet, with a 380 auto. The larger man chases the little guy away on foot the little guy was much faster. the larger man then goes back in the bar because he hurt his ankle. He walks in ands a woman starts screaming because his shirt is covered in blood. He had been shot seven times once in the left wrist breaking his watch four times in the abdomen and chest once in the right thigh and once in the right ankle. At the ER the bullets to his chest and abdomen were all removed with foreceps from the fatty tissue none went into the actual body cavity, the worst wounds he had were to his ankle and wrist And what really PO'd him was his saicko watch got broken.

Incident 2 man DOA 1 round from a 380 fired at a downward angle next to the left side of his neck, the bullet bisected his heart killing him five minutes later.

The moral here is that yes a small caliber can kill rapidly under ideal conditions but conditions are very seldom ideal.
If you are ever called upon to defend your life or the life of somone else you need to use the largest hardest hitting hammer you can but you need to be able to hit with it.

Carry a 544 Casul or a 480 Ruger they are both very large but if you do not shoot them much due to recoil of ammo cost you are not likely to hit anything with them. Carry a 45 ACp a 40 S&W or even a 9MM if that is what you can shoot accurately. I would Never want to trust anything smaller than the a 40 S&W Myself though, and I prefer a 45.
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Old 11-06-2006, 19:36   #248
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I knew a man who was shot twice in the chest with a 7MM Remington Magnum. Before he even went down, he drew his 1911 and emptied the magazine toward his assailant who had fired out of a van from across the street.

In my opinion, it's not so much the lack of performance in handgun cartridges as it is the human body's ability to absorb an enormous amount of trauma and still perform for a short time. He died a few minutes later, to be sure, but had his attacker been closer, he might have went with him.
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Old 11-22-2006, 17:23   #249
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Effective One Shot Stop

With a .45 ACP or larger caliber, firing one or more times into the assaulters pelvis will drop him instantly, the large caliber bullet will do one of two things, shatter the pelvis, causing extreme shock and trauma, or pass through the pelvic area into the spine. The assaulter will most definately become incapacitated. My uncle is a Doctor who goes to the same range, and he told me that the body will drop, as the legs cannnot fuction without the support structure of the pelvis. Many of the fireamrs instructors at the range I go to in Titusville Florida teach us to fire twice just bellow the belt line. Also, it takes less time to draw and fire at a lower target point than raising the weapon to fire at the center of mass, which is never a sure thing, or the head, which under stress, would be a very hard shot to pull off.
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Old 11-22-2006, 17:34   #250
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One last thing, larger caliber bullets + bigger holes = faster blood loss. With a smaller caliber weapon such as the Glock 17, I think it would be best to fire three or more times into the assaulters sternum. If well trained however, a double tap with a smaller caliber weapon is almost or equal to a larger caliber weapon as two bullet wounds in a very small group should cause the same affect as one larger caliber wound. A pelvis shot with a smaller caliber weapon would be less likely to shatter bones, as to fragment or deflect into another direction after hitting the pelvic bone.
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Old 11-22-2006, 18:32   #251
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Handgun service rounds are not likelyt o shatter the pelvis rather it be a 45 or a 9mm. It takes rifle or shotgun rounds to do that reliably.
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Old 11-22-2006, 18:40   #252
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Quote:
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Handgun service rounds are not likelyt o shatter the pelvis rather it be a 45 or a 9mm. It takes rifle or shotgun rounds to do that reliably.
Pat
I agree pretty dam hard for a single handgun bullet to SHATTER a pelvis.That kind of damage comes mostly from high falls or large impacts from a car or maybe a baseball bat but not from a single handgun caliber(12 gauge 00buck yes,45acp no)
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Old 11-22-2006, 18:49   #253
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Quote:
Originally posted by MOHAA Player
I agree pretty dam hard for a single handgun bullet to SHATTER a pelvis.That kind of damage comes mostly from high falls or large impacts from a car or maybe a baseball bat but not from a single handgun caliber(12 gauge 00buck yes,45acp no)
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Interestingly, Mas Ayoob described a pelvic shooting in his American Handgunner column a few months back. A lady NYC cop shot a knife-wielding BG once in the pelvis with a Gold Dot 124 +p 9mm round, taking him down -- and out of the fight.

The question before the court is: should the pelvis of an attacker be considered a desirable target for defense with a handgun? If so, when?
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Old 11-22-2006, 18:54   #254
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I believe the pelvis should be a target only if the head can not be hit. This is following com shots not working. I doubt that a pelvis shot will shatter the pelvis. But you could strike very important arteries in the region. Also most criminals do not wear body armor in this area.
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Old 11-23-2006, 11:14   #255
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But the pelvic area is more prfused with blood the only problem with the pelvis is with a small caliber like 9MM the person you shot is most likely consiouse and awake and able to return fire. Mid body hits will be more likely to affect the upper spine, even with the energy transfer brusing the tissue. I prefer the larger Calibers .45 ACP. And I subscribe to the old theory of pull the trigger till they stop kicking
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Old 11-23-2006, 21:13   #256
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With a .45ACP, it doesn't literally shatter a pelvis per say, yet the impact is supposed to render the assaulters legs from functioning, and I am not refering to just one shot, that may not do the job even with a hot .45 round, but two shots at the pelvis should drop the target. Many of the instructers at the range are ex millitary, and I know of at least one who was a marine who served in Fallujuah. He told me that a lot of them swithced to 1911's in CQ raids and if they shot an insurgent, who are extremely dedicated for destruction, in the pelvis area once or twice they collapsed every time, faster and more profecient than center of mass shots. However I do agree that anything smaller than a .45 wouldn't work.
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Old 11-23-2006, 21:15   #257
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Also, as the recoil rises, adjacent rounds would travel upward in the navel area, I think it would be easier for a round to hit the spine going through the intestinal tract than the upper chest and ribcage.
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Old 11-24-2006, 21:50   #258
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Old 11-25-2006, 17:14   #259
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Pelvis or abdomin when you want them absolutly positivly to die .... eventually, and if they should survive they will wish they had not
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Old 12-20-2006, 10:31   #260
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Quote:
Originally posted by vafish
And just where do you get that information from?

It's been a few years since I worked with them, but they did not qualify everyday. IIRC they had quartely qualifications (with the counter assualt team having monthly qualifications with 4 guns, handgun, AR, MP5, and shotgun). Like any federal police agency they had some gun guys that shot a lot but most were not gun guys and only fired at qualification time.

The presidential protective division and counter assualt guys did practice a lot more than most. But they still did not practice daily. They just didn't have a range available to do so, or enough time in the day to drive to the range, qualify, then work a full shift.
I wasn't going to say anything, but +1 that. Even in a Marine Scout Sniper Plt. we didn't shoot daily...we trained alot, but Qualing daily...really come on. The logistics and time requirements of doing that....they wouldn't get anything else done hardly if at all.
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