GlockTalk.com
Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-05-2007, 16:45   #301
ZBoater
Senior Member
 
ZBoater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: NRA friendly Florida
Posts: 337
Quote:
Originally posted by taters
don't for a second believe that b.s. no one shot with a .45 4 times is gonna say damn these bee stings and keep coming. people bs why i don't know but dont believe it
Granted, the bee sting comments sound like BS, but the fact remains the perp got shot FIVE times in the CHEST with a .45 and lived to tell about it. FOUR shots and he still held on to the knife.

There is no thing as a magic bullet. I am willing to bet $$$ that if instead of .45 the cop was shooting, say, .380ACP, but instead of the chest he had shot the perp in, say, the EYE socket, or his genitals, I am pretty certain he would have dropped the knife sooner.

I'm guessing, but I feel its a pretty good guess...
__________________
NAA Guardian 380 * Sig P232
Walther P99C AS * Glock 26 * Glock 19
Beretta M9 * H&K USP compact .40S&W
Mossberg M590A1 12 gauge
ZBoater is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2007, 16:50   #302
gary newport
Senior Member
 
gary newport's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: People's Republic of California
Posts: 12,273
Quote:
Originally posted by ZBoater
Granted, the bee sting comments sound like BS, but the fact remains the perp got shot FIVE times in the CHEST with a .45 and lived to tell about it. FOUR shots and he still held on to the knife.

There is no thing as a magic bullet. I am willing to bet $$$ that if instead of .45 the cop was shooting, say, .380ACP, but instead of the chest he had shot the perp in, say, the EYE socket, or his genitals, I am pretty certain he would have dropped the knife sooner.

I'm guessing, but I feel its a pretty good guess...
And if the cop had shot the thug in an eye socket with the .45 or five times in the chest with a .380, what do you think would have happened?

The real question is WHY five .45s "to the chest" didn't work? What anatomical equipment was hit or missed?
__________________
A forum with WalterGa is a more informative, funnier, and more interesting place.

G17, G17RTF2, G19, G21, G21SF (2), G26, G30, G30SF, G34 (2), G37 (2), G38, G39
gary newport is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2007, 17:34   #303
ZBoater
Senior Member
 
ZBoater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: NRA friendly Florida
Posts: 337
Quote:
Originally posted by gary newport
And if the cop had shot the thug in an eye socket with the .45 or five times in the chest with a .380, what do you think would have happened?

The real question is WHY five .45s "to the chest" didn't work? What anatomical equipment was hit or missed?
Excellent question. A single .380 to the chest may have stopped him, provided it hit where it was supposed to, didnt get deflected by clothes, bone, etc. and who knows how many other factors.

There is no question - all other things being EXACTLY equal, a larger bullet will do more damage than a smaller bullet. Physics, I guess.

But all things are NEVER equal.

If you read the article you also see the case of the cop who double-tapped a suspect that was approaching him, and the suspect survived and killed the cop. I just think that this overconfidence on larger calibers are "manstoppers" (and the opposite lack of confidence on smaller calibers) is misplaced. Shot placement is more important than caliber is the point I was trying to make.

But, of course, that is only my very, very humble opinion.
__________________
NAA Guardian 380 * Sig P232
Walther P99C AS * Glock 26 * Glock 19
Beretta M9 * H&K USP compact .40S&W
Mossberg M590A1 12 gauge
ZBoater is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2007, 19:24   #304
PBR Sailor
Senior Member
 
PBR Sailor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: CONUS
Posts: 725
Quote:
Originally posted by taters
don't for a second believe that b.s. no one shot with a .45 4 times is gonna say damn these bee stings and keep coming. people bs why i don't know but dont believe it
Depending on a person's state of mind, drug influence, organs hit when shot, etc., anything is possible. I never say never when it comes to this type of thing.
__________________
Guerre 'A Mort
PBR Sailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2007, 19:37   #305
agentl074
Senior Member
 
agentl074's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 700
Quote:
Originally posted by Alaskapopo
The head shot is a good choice when shots to com are not working. The reason could either be body armor or simply the person is amped up or on drugs. The only way to stop the fight quickly is a CNS hit. If you can hit the head then try the pelvis. But to say the head is always a bad target is not correct.
Pat
Also a good choice would be the transmission of the body ie the hips. This would immobilize the subject.
__________________
Student - Indiana University - Public Affairs
Veteran, USAF (Security Forces)
Indiana Law Enforcement Training Board (Pre-Basic Certified)
*Ron Paul Campaign for Liberty*
agentl074 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2007, 19:42   #306
Alaskapopo
NRA ENDOWMENT
 
Alaskapopo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Alaska
Posts: 16,457


Quote:
Originally posted by taters
don't for a second believe that b.s. no one shot with a .45 4 times is gonna say damn these bee stings and keep coming. people bs why i don't know but dont believe it
I know of several shootings where suspects took multiple rounds from a 45 and kept fighting and killing. Its not a miracle round. All handguns are weak relatively speaking.
Pat
__________________
Colt M16/AR15/ 1911 & Glock Armorer.
Certified Firearms Instructor & Urban Rifle Instructor.
Completed SWAT Entry Team and SWAT Sniper courses.
NRA Endowment Member
USPSA B class
Alaskapopo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2007, 19:43   #307
Alaskapopo
NRA ENDOWMENT
 
Alaskapopo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Alaska
Posts: 16,457


Quote:
Originally posted by agentl074
Also a good choice would be the transmission of the body ie the hips. This would immobilize the subject.
We call that the ABC drill. Step A two shots to the chest, Step b 1 shot to the head, Step C 2 shots to the pelvics and then repeat steps A-C again.
Pat
__________________
Colt M16/AR15/ 1911 & Glock Armorer.
Certified Firearms Instructor & Urban Rifle Instructor.
Completed SWAT Entry Team and SWAT Sniper courses.
NRA Endowment Member
USPSA B class
Alaskapopo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2007, 19:45   #308
ZBoater
Senior Member
 
ZBoater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: NRA friendly Florida
Posts: 337
As a newb I wonder, how would a .45 round compare to my Mossberg M590A1 shooting a 12 gauge slug? Penetration probably is poor, but it sure sounds like a "one shot stop" kinda round when I fire it at the range!

__________________
NAA Guardian 380 * Sig P232
Walther P99C AS * Glock 26 * Glock 19
Beretta M9 * H&K USP compact .40S&W
Mossberg M590A1 12 gauge
ZBoater is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2007, 19:48   #309
agentl074
Senior Member
 
agentl074's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 700
Actually a 12 gauge slug has 2500-3500 lbs of energy at close range! The slug can penetrate quite a bit at close range. Now we are talking tons of energy vs mere pounds LOL.
__________________
Student - Indiana University - Public Affairs
Veteran, USAF (Security Forces)
Indiana Law Enforcement Training Board (Pre-Basic Certified)
*Ron Paul Campaign for Liberty*
agentl074 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2007, 19:50   #310
Alaskapopo
NRA ENDOWMENT
 
Alaskapopo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Alaska
Posts: 16,457


Quote:
Originally posted by ZBoater
As a newb I wonder, how would a .45 round compare to my Mossberg M590A1 shooting a 12 gauge slug? Penetration probably is poor, but it sure sounds like a "one shot stop" kinda round when I fire it at the range!

The 12 gauge slug is probably the closest thing you can get to a magic bullet when it comes to stopping power. I have never heard of anyone taking more than 2 before they were DRT.
Pat
__________________
Colt M16/AR15/ 1911 & Glock Armorer.
Certified Firearms Instructor & Urban Rifle Instructor.
Completed SWAT Entry Team and SWAT Sniper courses.
NRA Endowment Member
USPSA B class
Alaskapopo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2007, 19:52   #311
gary newport
Senior Member
 
gary newport's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: People's Republic of California
Posts: 12,273
Quote:
Originally posted by Alaskapopo
I know of several shootings where suspects took multiple rounds from a 45 and kept fighting and killing. Its not a miracle round. All handguns are weak relatively speaking.
Pat
Pat, did anybody ever investigate WHY these failures occurred?

What we seem to get are (1) questionable statistics on "one-shot stops" and (2) accounts, often anecdotal, of multiple-round failures by one caliber or another. What we DON'T seem to get are proper ANALYSES of why one (or more) rounds worked in specific cases and why one (or more) rounds didn't work in other cases.

It is possible for multiple rounds to hit the chest area and still miss anything which would quickly incapacitate an attacker. Is that what happened? Many of us say shot placement is the key--but do we really KNOW that? Without analyses of the kind we don't seem to have, it is hard to argue that ANYTHING is the key--perhaps "stopping" an attacker is more about luck than anything else!
__________________
A forum with WalterGa is a more informative, funnier, and more interesting place.

G17, G17RTF2, G19, G21, G21SF (2), G26, G30, G30SF, G34 (2), G37 (2), G38, G39
gary newport is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2007, 20:05   #312
ZBoater
Senior Member
 
ZBoater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: NRA friendly Florida
Posts: 337
I seem to recall an FBI article about incapacitation and the organs that had to be penetrated (like heart, spinal cord, etc.) I recall reading that even with a shot to the heart, a person could still function for 5-10 seconds, plenty of time to aim and shoot. It said something very commonsensical, like different people have different tolerances for pain and different motivations that will affect their reaction to being shot.

Me, for example, would probably go into shock with the slightest graze. Now that I think about it, just the sound of a pistol shot without hearing protection is likely to incapacitate me. I don't think drugs or a winter coat are going to make me any harder to stop.
__________________
NAA Guardian 380 * Sig P232
Walther P99C AS * Glock 26 * Glock 19
Beretta M9 * H&K USP compact .40S&W
Mossberg M590A1 12 gauge
ZBoater is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2007, 20:32   #313
taters
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: mays landing nj
Posts: 433
it amazes me that people believe other people who say i have witnessed someone get shot multiple times in the chest with a .45 230 grain jhp and keep on fighting. the truth is just one of these rounds hitting the bad guy in the chest will stop the attacker 9 out of 10 times!!!!! that's police statistics.no one can convince me that a .45 jhp 230 grain hitting someone in the chest 4 times will not stop a bad guy. a 9mm yes but a .45 nah boys
__________________
taters
taters is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2007, 20:55   #314
ZBoater
Senior Member
 
ZBoater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: NRA friendly Florida
Posts: 337
Quote:
Originally posted by taters
it amazes me that people believe other people who say i have witnessed someone get shot multiple times in the chest with a .45 230 grain jhp and keep on fighting. the truth is just one of these rounds hitting the bad guy in the chest will stop the attacker 9 out of 10 times!!!!! that's police statistics.no one can convince me that a .45 jhp 230 grain hitting someone in the chest 4 times will not stop a bad guy. a 9mm yes but a .45 nah boys
This isn't one of those "my buddy told me a neighbor said his sister saw" kind of incidents. The one we are talking about is a documented incident referenced in the research work done by the folks at the FBI academy that is one the very first link of this thread.

The is precisely what they are saying in the other incident where a cop did a double tap on a suspect and paused, and the suspect kept coming and killed him. This is from that same article:

"On a summer evening in the northeastern part of the United States, a patrol officer received a radio dispatch at approximately 7 p.m. to respond to an address for a disorderly subject. The officer arrived at the location and parked his patrol vehicle on the opposite side of the street, several houses away. Before exiting the vehicle, the officer paused to observe the scene. He saw a male move from behind a large tree in front of the address of the alleged disorderly subject. The officer started to exit his vehicle, but then stopped when he saw the male, with a gun in each hand, begin to run toward him. The man fired both weapons at the officer, who returned two rounds from his service weapon, striking the male in the center of his chest. However, the man continued to fire. One round struck the officer in the head, killing him instantly. The male survived the two gunshot wounds and later was convicted of killing the officer."

Then they ask the question:

"...did the officer “hesitate” after firing the two rounds that struck the offender? Was he instructed to “double tap” and pause, as many departments once trained?"

Overconfidence in one's round of choice can be just as bad. Take it for what its worth.
__________________
NAA Guardian 380 * Sig P232
Walther P99C AS * Glock 26 * Glock 19
Beretta M9 * H&K USP compact .40S&W
Mossberg M590A1 12 gauge
ZBoater is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2007, 21:18   #315
Alaskapopo
NRA ENDOWMENT
 
Alaskapopo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Alaska
Posts: 16,457


Quote:
Originally posted by gary newport
Pat, did anybody ever investigate WHY these failures occurred?

What we seem to get are (1) questionable statistics on "one-shot stops" and (2) accounts, often anecdotal, of multiple-round failures by one caliber or another. What we DON'T seem to get are proper ANALYSES of why one (or more) rounds worked in specific cases and why one (or more) rounds didn't work in other cases.

It is possible for multiple rounds to hit the chest area and still miss anything which would quickly incapacitate an attacker. Is that what happened? Many of us say shot placement is the key--but do we really KNOW that? Without analyses of the kind we don't seem to have, it is hard to argue that ANYTHING is the key--perhaps "stopping" an attacker is more about luck than anything else!
The most recent one I can think of I learned from Broken Arrow a very knowledgeable person here on the board. Boise ID Police had a shooting where the cops hit the suspects mulitiple times with 45's many were vital hits. (one had 12 hits the other 8 if I recall correctly) but they still manadged to wound several officers with their 9mm pistols. If they cops did not have body armor they would have been dead.

I like the 45 acp but it is not a miracle round. And Yes taters many people have taken entire magazines of 45's and kept on going. Pistols even the 357 mag and 45 acp are just pistols and marginal stoppers at best.
Pat
__________________
Colt M16/AR15/ 1911 & Glock Armorer.
Certified Firearms Instructor & Urban Rifle Instructor.
Completed SWAT Entry Team and SWAT Sniper courses.
NRA Endowment Member
USPSA B class
Alaskapopo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2007, 01:53   #316
agentl074
Senior Member
 
agentl074's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 700
Training Training Training. Fight like you train. Train like you would fight!
__________________
Student - Indiana University - Public Affairs
Veteran, USAF (Security Forces)
Indiana Law Enforcement Training Board (Pre-Basic Certified)
*Ron Paul Campaign for Liberty*
agentl074 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2007, 11:13   #317
PBR Sailor
Senior Member
 
PBR Sailor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: CONUS
Posts: 725
I believe that the pistol is a marginal substitute for those occasions when you don't have a shotgun or rifle readily available. In my humble opinion, even a skilled combat shooter with a large caliber handgun, a high level of training and plenty of ammunition cannot guarantee he/she will rapidly incapacitate an armed subject. Big holes are good, but they do not guarantee instant or rapid incapacitation.

I believe the ABC drill to be a good one to practice regardless of what caliber handgun you carry for situations that require the application of lethal force.

__________________
Guerre 'A Mort

Last edited by PBR Sailor; 04-06-2007 at 11:15..
PBR Sailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2007, 11:07   #318
MOHAA Player
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
I don't buy into all the internet talk forum stories of the guys who take a 45acp to the head and keep fighting 5 cops or the guys who take 00buck rounds COM and keep throwing punches,but I do know any round can fail to produce a one shot stop.No matter what your carrying remember shot placement and shoot until the threat is down and out of fight.
MOHAA
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2007, 11:14   #319
taters
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: mays landing nj
Posts: 433
AMEN!!!!!
__________________
taters
taters is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2007, 13:25   #320
PBR Sailor
Senior Member
 
PBR Sailor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: CONUS
Posts: 725
Quote:
Originally posted by MOHAA Player
I don't buy into all the internet talk forum stories of the guys who take a 45acp to the head and keep fighting 5 cops or the guys who take 00buck rounds COM and keep throwing punches,but I do know any round can fail to produce a one shot stop.No matter what your carrying remember shot placement and shoot until the threat is down and out of fight.
MOHAA
I never have heard of an incident in which someone took a load of buckshot and kept on coming. I would not mind hearing about it if it in fact happened. I do wholeheartedly agree that you have to shoot until you are no longer threatened. No one can predict how many rounds it will take.
__________________
Guerre 'A Mort
PBR Sailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2007, 14:09   #321
glockwraith
Tuperware Owner
 
glockwraith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Hades, MO
Posts: 99
Interesting article. Thank you.

Trey
glockwraith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2007, 12:14   #322
Jake Starr
Senior Member
 
Jake Starr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 4,649
Little Eastern VC's are some different then a big corn fed mid Westerner on drugs....
__________________
Christian pacifism is an option not a requirement.

The Christian faith is in no way pacifistic.
Jake Starr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2007, 15:12   #323
taters
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: mays landing nj
Posts: 433
end of discussion

ok for all of you who don't believe a hydro shocjhp 230 grain .45 won't necessarily take down a giant on drugs then go and buy yourself a smith and wesson 500 magnum. one shot will stop a grizzly bear. as for me i'll take my chances with my glock 21 filled with jhp and i won'tneed more than 2 rounds. for the doubters among you go get the 500 magnum smith and wesson and don't have any doubts about anyone not going down from one shot from this gun.case closed!!!!!!!!
__________________
taters
taters is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-21-2007, 18:05   #324
glock20c10mm
Senior Member
 
glock20c10mm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Out West
Posts: 5,244
500 S&W Mag does not guarantee a one shot stop. Hope I didn't burst your bubble. Only head and upper spinal column shots do. And that can be accomplished with a 22LR. And about the Grizzly bears, hunters have emptied more than 5 rounds of 30-06 into them and the bears showed no signs of weekness!
__________________
Free Men Don't Need To Ask Permission To Bear Arms

The Glock 29 is the most versatile handgun yet produced.
glock20c10mm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2007, 18:08   #325
RandyWallace
Member
 
RandyWallace's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Jackson, TN
Posts: 52


Quote:
Originally posted by RMTactical
Exactly.

Aiming at the COM, not just the whole body as a target.
COM???
__________________
Glock 17 9mm; H&K USP(V3).40; Sig 230 .380
Visit my website at:
www.RandyWallaceCPA.com
RandyWallace is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 00:14.



Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 795
214 Members
581 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,244
Nov 11, 2013 at 11:42