GlockTalk.com
Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-15-2006, 15:43   #226
thejackbull45
Senior Member
 
thejackbull45's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Veedauwoo
Posts: 8,619
Re: Re: Maybe they should carry 44 mags with mags safe defender ammo

Quote:
Originally posted by GoreLicks
I think you missed the point. Well placed shots, at a rapid pace with a decent caliber seems like your best bet.
Then why do most of my local, my state, the fed use something bigger than the 9?
thejackbull45 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2006, 20:35   #227
MOHAA Player
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Re: Re: Maybe they should carry 44 mags with mags safe defender ammo

Quote:
Originally posted by thejackbull45
Then why do most of my local, my state, the fed use something bigger than the 9?
Because there are better ballistic options out there then the 9mm that fit into the same size weapon.Less shots to stop a attack is a advantage to me.
MOHAA
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2006, 21:14   #228
Alaskapopo
NRA ENDOWMENT
 
Alaskapopo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Alaska
Posts: 16,457


Re: Re: Re: Re: Maybe they should carry 44 mags with mags safe defender ammo

Quote:
Originally posted by MOHAA Player
Because there are better ballistic options out there then the 9mm that fit into the same size weapon.Less shots to stop a attack is a advantage to me.
MOHAA
Actually the 9mm still holds a small edge in overall use amoung leo's. There are more agencys using the 40 now but still more cops carring the 9mm. The reason is the big agencys that employ most of the people issue 9mm's. For example NYPD, Chicago PD, Philly PD, LAPD ect.

In real life the 9mm is just as good a stopper as the 40sw.
Pat
__________________
Colt M16/AR15/ 1911 & Glock Armorer.
Certified Firearms Instructor & Urban Rifle Instructor.
Completed SWAT Entry Team and SWAT Sniper courses.
NRA Endowment Member
USPSA B class
Alaskapopo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2006, 21:22   #229
nemesis
Koolaid Gestapo
 
nemesis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: OK
Posts: 1,572
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Maybe they should carry 44 mags with mags safe defender ammo

Quote:
Originally posted by Alaskapopo
Actually the 9mm still holds a small edge in overall use amoung leo's. There are more agencys using the 40 now but still more cops carring the 9mm. The reason is the big agencys that employ most of the people issue 9mm's. For example NYPD, Chicago PD, Philly PD, LAPD ect.

In real life the 9mm is just as good a stopper as the 40sw.
Pat
Actually, there are other factors that amount to "big agency's" decisions on caliber choice like cost. For those not on a limited budget there are other choices.

In real life, now that's interesting. Could you provide some concrete numbers to back that up. "In real life" never seems to go beyond the reality of certain individual's mind.
nemesis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2006, 07:03   #230
thejackbull45
Senior Member
 
thejackbull45's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Veedauwoo
Posts: 8,619
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Maybe they should carry 44 mags with mags safe defender ammo

Quote:
Originally posted by Alaskapopo
Actually the 9mm still holds a small edge in overall use amoung leo's. There are more agencys using the 40 now but still more cops carring the 9mm. The reason is the big agencys that employ most of the people issue 9mm's. For example NYPD, Chicago PD, Philly PD, LAPD ect.

In real life the 9mm is just as good a stopper as the 40sw.
Pat
Listing pds in large liberal cities doesnt help your arrguement IMHO.
thejackbull45 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2006, 07:03   #231
thejackbull45
Senior Member
 
thejackbull45's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Veedauwoo
Posts: 8,619
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Maybe they should carry 44 mags with mags safe defender ammo

Quote:
Originally posted by Alaskapopo
Actually the 9mm still holds a small edge in overall use amoung leo's. There are more agencys using the 40 now but still more cops carring the 9mm. The reason is the big agencys that employ most of the people issue 9mm's. For example NYPD, Chicago PD, Philly PD, LAPD ect.

In real life the 9mm is just as good a stopper as the 40sw.
Pat
Listing pds in large liberal cities doesnt help your arrguement IMHO.
thejackbull45 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2006, 12:09   #232
Alaskapopo
NRA ENDOWMENT
 
Alaskapopo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Alaska
Posts: 16,457


Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Maybe they should carry 44 mags with mags safe defender ammo

Quote:
Originally posted by thejackbull45
Listing pds in large liberal cities doesnt help your arrguement IMHO.
Who cares what the political state of the city is. Its irrelevant to the discussion. The simple fact is more cops still carry 9mm's. Rather they work in a large liberal city or in a right wing wacko small town. I find it amusing when people try to use the world liberal in the same context as evil. You must be a Rush Limbaugh fan.
Pat
__________________
Colt M16/AR15/ 1911 & Glock Armorer.
Certified Firearms Instructor & Urban Rifle Instructor.
Completed SWAT Entry Team and SWAT Sniper courses.
NRA Endowment Member
USPSA B class
Alaskapopo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2006, 12:18   #233
nemesis
Koolaid Gestapo
 
nemesis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: OK
Posts: 1,572
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Maybe they should carry 44 mags with mags safe defender ammo

Quote:
Originally posted by Alaskapopo
Who cares what the political state of the city is. Its irrelevant to the discussion. The simple fact is more cops still carry 9mm's. Rather they work in a large liberal city or in a right wing wacko small town. I find it amusing when people try to use the world liberal in the same context as evil. You must be a Rush Limbaugh fan.
Pat
Childish attacks aside. Politics can play an integral part of a weapon platform choice. This really is no secret.
nemesis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2006, 12:26   #234
thejackbull45
Senior Member
 
thejackbull45's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Veedauwoo
Posts: 8,619
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Maybe they should carry 44 mags with mags safe defender ammo

Quote:
Originally posted by Alaskapopo
Who cares what the political state of the city is. Its irrelevant to the discussion. The simple fact is more cops still carry 9mm's. Rather they work in a large liberal city or in a right wing wacko small town. I find it amusing when people try to use the world liberal in the same context as evil. You must be a Rush Limbaugh fan.
Pat

The fact that these cities are liberal is a fact AND pertenent to the discussion. Lib cities are afraid of guns in the hands of citizens and police.

Its sad how you are ashamed of the liberal lable and have to insult people with views different than yours. Liberal does mean no guns which is why the term was used.

Lastly, DITTO.
thejackbull45 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2006, 12:36   #235
Alaskapopo
NRA ENDOWMENT
 
Alaskapopo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Alaska
Posts: 16,457


Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Maybe they should carry 44 mags with mags safe defend

Quote:
Originally posted by thejackbull45
The fact that these cities are liberal is a fact AND pertenent to the discussion. Lib cities are afraid of guns in the hands of citizens and police.

Its sad how you are ashamed of the liberal lable and have to insult people with views different than yours. Liberal does mean no guns which is why the term was used.

Lastly, DITTO.
Actually the term liberal has nothing to do with guns. Go take a political science course. The term has been perverted by the right wing consiracy tin foil hat crowd. In the most pure sence under a liberal govt you would have more rights including gun rights. Get out a dictionary and look up the words liberal and conservative.
Pat
__________________
Colt M16/AR15/ 1911 & Glock Armorer.
Certified Firearms Instructor & Urban Rifle Instructor.
Completed SWAT Entry Team and SWAT Sniper courses.
NRA Endowment Member
USPSA B class
Alaskapopo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2006, 12:41   #236
thejackbull45
Senior Member
 
thejackbull45's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Veedauwoo
Posts: 8,619
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Maybe they should carry 44 mags with mags safe defend

Quote:
Originally posted by Alaskapopo
Actually the term liberal has nothing to do with guns. Go take a political science course. The term has been perverted by the right wing consiracy tin foil hat crowd. In the most pure sence under a liberal govt you would have more rights including gun rights. Get out a dictionary and look up the words liberal and conservative.
Pat

Ok lets call them the left, does that make you feel better?

So you would agree that the right is more liberal then the left.
thejackbull45 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2006, 13:05   #237
blinddog
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: SW Kansas 5 miles from nowhere
Posts: 1,771
This argument is really pointless unless you understand the purchasing procedures large agencies go through before issuing a new side arm. Many times "stopping power" is the least considered issue.
What it really boils down to is that NO HANDGUN WILL IMEDIATLY STOP AN ATTACKER unless the CNS is involved. So for a defensive handgun you need the penitration to enter deeply enough to pass nearly through the body to involve the spine. Knocking out hthe pump will still give a determined attacker a few seconds, even as much as a couple minutes to do you harm.
The CNS has got to be cut to get a fast one shot stop period. If the caliber is that important then the .22 rimfire would be the primere round as more peoplr are killed with them than any other, in the US anyway.
__________________
You cannot always live as you wish, but you must always live as you can
G21 Club #0221
blinddog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2006, 11:21   #238
ponykilr
Reagan man
 
ponykilr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: smithfield n.c. u.s.a
Posts: 1,747
although i argue more often than not for a deep penetrating, heavy for caliber bullets.....

i am starting to consider that what is involved in a one shot stop, may be more than this.

although i still believe that a spinal or brain shot is the only instant stop, there MAY be other things that would be able to contribute to a stop(perhaps not even a lethal hit).

i am considering a few things and running tests as time and funds allow. super high speed .357mag and sig(double tap/corbon) may have the ability to stop an attacker quickly (not nessesarily a lethal hit) by the "punch" effect. what i mean is that even given equal penetration, the high velocity and temporary disruption MAY lead to someone stopping their "fight/will to continue" with a less than lethal hit.

somes tests i have completed show the devistating effect on water jugs from high velocity. while i am not sure of the effect on living tissue, i feel i cannot discount it entirely.

a 125gr .357mag sjhp has a terrific effect on the first and second jugs and the core continues into the 3rd jug. a .45acp 230gr has a much less dramatic entry, but will more often than not continue into or exit the fourth jug. these are the two extremes as far as my testing and what i consider for defense.

here is the question in my mind(which i will be answering for myself, i am not looking to argue or preach)
which will cause the best hope of a instant or really fast stop?

in my case, 9mm is my usual choice so because of my preference for heavy/slow projectiles, i use 147gr rangerT. i use fmj in my p3at so i can be sure it goes deep, and in .45 i always opt for 230gr.
i am trying to figure out FOR ME, if i need to consider a round that goes deep, but has high velocity to also have a chance to cause this "punch" effect.

this is all something each of us has to get right for ourselves. i will update when i decide.
__________________
Μολὼν λαβέ
ponykilr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2006, 12:31   #239
HILLSIDEBLUE
Senior Member
 
HILLSIDEBLUE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Crystal River, Florida
Posts: 324
Recoil Factor

A lot of people talk about the "punch" of a bullet when it strikes the bad guy...........

The punch he feels is exactly equal to the recoil you feel when firing the round..........Newton's law says that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.......There's no way around that..........

Shot placement is the only thing important in stopping an attacker......Hit him in the right place and he will drop from shock, blood loss or loss of control, like a shot to the brain stem........

Spend time practicing your shooting......If shooting water bottles is fun that's fine......It makes you learn how to hit a target where you want..........The big splash is fun to watch, but it is more important to know that you can hit the bad guy without loosing your cool and continue to hit him until he falls....That takes training and practice.....

Most of these tests that are run by ammo manufactures are meant to sell ammo to people........In the real world they don't really mean much.......A good quality round that is reliable and accurate is more important than knowing how many water bottles it will go through.....Just my opinion, I mean no disrespect.....

John

Last edited by HILLSIDEBLUE; 10-21-2006 at 12:36..
HILLSIDEBLUE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2006, 13:14   #240
ponykilr
Reagan man
 
ponykilr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: smithfield n.c. u.s.a
Posts: 1,747
i agree with everything you said except...
the "punch" i am refering to is caused by the high velocity of the projectile pushing water and tissue away in a violent manner. this is not equal to what the shooter feels in recoil though the actual energy numbers may be shown/interpreted to be the same.

many times a person is quoted as saying "i didnt even know i had been shot". what i will figure out for MYSELF is if i believe a higher velocity projectile with a more violent disruption of tissue will cause a person to "give up fighting" or decide quicker that "wow that hurts, i need to get out of here"

i am not joining the light/fast crowd but just am doing a little testing to see if the concept has merit. meanwhile, ra9t at just under 1000fps is still my choice.

i am a hard arguer for heavy/slow and have been in some heated discussions here. but i am not closed minded to some exploration.
__________________
Μολὼν λαβέ
ponykilr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2006, 18:11   #241
Ebb27
Senior Member
 
Ebb27's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: East of the mountains
Posts: 2,828
Re: Recoil Factor

Quote:
Originally posted by HILLSIDEBLUE


The punch he feels is exactly equal to the recoil you feel when firing the round..........Newton's law says that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.......There's no way around that..........

Not quite!

The bullet is ripping deep into flesh and creating a severe wound, the grip of your pistol isn't. The pistol is not opening up like a little metal parachute inside of your body like a hollow-point bullet does.

The energy levels may be similiar but the impact is not the same, nor is the reaction to that energy going to be the same.

In the article from Firearms-Tactical titled "The Myth of Energy Transfer", they too try to debunk the idea of energy transfer, but in the article they state that a 357magnum bullet feels roughly equivalent to getting hit with a baseball going 210 mph, and go on to point out that though the BG was shot several times with a 357mag it did not stop him.

Now I've shot .357magnum revolvers many, many times and it never felt like I was being hit in the hand with a baseball going 210 mph.

You're failling to take into account that all the bullet's energy will strike an area of less than half an inch and drive deep into the body destroying tissue and sensitive nerves. The grip of your pistol doesn't "normally" tear through the flesh and nerves of your hand.

The average pistol grip won't penetrate 12" to 18" through tissue the way a bullet will, so how can you possibly compare the impact of a bullet to the impact of a pistol grip???

Now if you stick a long nail or spike on the back of your grip then fire a round that might give you a better idea of how it might feel.
__________________
A Glock in the hand,
is worth two in the safe.

Last edited by Ebb27; 10-21-2006 at 18:21..
Ebb27 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2006, 18:36   #242
blinddog
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: SW Kansas 5 miles from nowhere
Posts: 1,771
This was an old argument when I started shooting What it all amounts to is, a projectile on matter if Bullet,an arrow,or a rock or bottle. can it hit hard enough to stop a determend attack? The answer to that is yes. A hard enough hit by any projectile will stop any determined attack, provided it can kill, disable, or other wise incapasitate the attacker. Many Many gunwriters and other wags have come up with theories as to why this happens. Big bullets that penitrate deep and disrupt the CNS smaller lighter bullets that go real fast and administer enough shock to disrupt the CNS. I think it is some of both, but the main factor is the CNS has got to be disrupted meaning the spine has to be severed or the brain has got to be killed eather by injury or loss of blood/oxygen. The mechinisim that causes this is only important as a point of argument.

Learn to shoot fast and accurately, under stress. I can garantee that you will never be attacked by a jug of water, or a block of clay. These mediums are good for testing a bullets reaction/penitration in a jug of water or a block of clay. Knowing this is good since you want your projectile to both penitrate deep enough to disrupt the spinal cord and cause enough shock from blood loss to disable/kill the brain.

Then we come to the whole consept of human Vs. animal we humans think/ reason/imagine animals do not.
Shoot a deer/coyote or any other animal it will run or try to run, it may try to attack you. A human on the other hand, is going to have a reaction sort of like. "Oh! A gunshot" "Wow I have been shot!!!" "BLOOD!!!!!!!!" " OH S***T I am BLEEDING" "I AM GOING TO DIE"
This reaction can lead to what is known as psyhcogenic(sp) shock. Any of you ever seen someone get a shot and pass out? Or pass out at just the sight or smell of blood? Thats it, the mind can with the proper mental stimulation cause the blood to rush out of the head in effect starving the brain causing the person to faint. I have seen that reaction to very minor wounds but on the other hand seen people with major injuries get up and walk around like nothing at all was wrong. That is the part of the mental side of stopping power. The thing is if you get into a lethal confrontation you want the best tools avalible that means the biggest, hardest hitting projectile you can get. Bigger /heavier = deeper penitration and more damage potential.
__________________
You cannot always live as you wish, but you must always live as you can
G21 Club #0221

Last edited by blinddog; 10-21-2006 at 18:38..
blinddog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2006, 04:38   #243
HILLSIDEBLUE
Senior Member
 
HILLSIDEBLUE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Crystal River, Florida
Posts: 324
Bullets

I got a call one day to the old Meadowbrook Hospital building in East Meadow, Long Island.........
An off duty Registered nurse and her boyfriend were fooling around with a zip gun he had made........
He was loading it with what used to be called "CB Caps", a super short .22 load, smaller than your thumbnail.....
He pointed the zip gun at his girlfriend as a joke, but the gun went off, hitting her in the cheek, just under her eye...
When I got there she had a towel over her eye and I looked at the wound, told her she would be OK and drove her over to the Emergency Department in the police car.........
I really thought they could just pull the little bullet out of her eye socket, maybe in surgery, but I thought she would be OK...
One of the other cops stayed with the boyfriend......

After x-rays were done, the doctor told me that I should take a statement from the girl, who was about 25, and make sure I told her that she was not going to survive the accident..........The bullet was in her brain stem and would kill her in a matter of a couple of hours.....

I told her that I wanted a statement from her and she had to tell the truth about the incident and how she got shot, because the doctor told me she was not going to live and there was no surgery at that time involving the brain stem.......

I took a "Dying Declaration" statement that said her boyfriend had pointed the gun at her on purpose.............

Two hours later, I arrested him for MURDER.......

The CB caps he used were the same loads I used to fire in my basement into a phone book to play with my .22 target pistol.....They were probably the slowest, lightest firearm load there was at the time.........But the bullet, put in the right place, sure killed the nurse in less than three hours.........

Shot placement is pretty important..........

I carry a GLOCK 27 in .40 caliber now.....180 grain, bonded hollow points, but I wouldn't want to get hit with a CB cap either.......

It doesn't have to be a big, expanding round to do a lot of damage........If it hits the right place.........
HILLSIDEBLUE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2006, 07:43   #244
MOHAA Player
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Bullets

Quote:
Originally posted by HILLSIDEBLUE
I got a call one day to the old Meadowbrook Hospital building in East Meadow, Long Island.........
An off duty Registered nurse and her boyfriend were fooling around with a zip gun he had made........
He was loading it with what used to be called "CB Caps", a super short .22 load, smaller than your thumbnail.....
He pointed the zip gun at his girlfriend as a joke, but the gun went off, hitting her in the cheek, just under her eye...
When I got there she had a towel over her eye and I looked at the wound, told her she would be OK and drove her over to the Emergency Department in the police car.........
I really thought they could just pull the little bullet out of her eye socket, maybe in surgery, but I thought she would be OK...
One of the other cops stayed with the boyfriend......

After x-rays were done, the doctor told me that I should take a statement from the girl, who was about 25, and make sure I told her that she was not going to survive the accident..........The bullet was in her brain stem and would kill her in a matter of a couple of hours.....

I told her that I wanted a statement from her and she had to tell the truth about the incident and how she got shot, because the doctor told me she was not going to live and there was no surgery at that time involving the brain stem.......

I took a "Dying Declaration" statement that said her boyfriend had pointed the gun at her on purpose.............

Two hours later, I arrested him for MURDER.......

The CB caps he used were the same loads I used to fire in my basement into a phone book to play with my .22 target pistol.....They were probably the slowest, lightest firearm load there was at the time.........But the bullet, put in the right place, sure killed the nurse in less than three hours.........

Shot placement is pretty important..........

I carry a GLOCK 27 in .40 caliber now.....180 grain, bonded hollow points, but I wouldn't want to get hit with a CB cap either.......

It doesn't have to be a big, expanding round to do a lot of damage........If it hits the right place.........
I see your point of shot placement,but bigger calibers will still do more damage and stop a attacker with less shots fired and that is a advantage that is worth the extra money to me.
MOHAA

Last edited by MOHAA Player; 10-22-2006 at 10:13..
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2006, 10:13   #245
HILLSIDEBLUE
Senior Member
 
HILLSIDEBLUE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Crystal River, Florida
Posts: 324
That's true............I carry a .40 cal Model 27 with 180 grain Federal bonded hollowpoints for that reason.........

My next GLOCK will be a Model 20 in 10mm and heavier rounds (The heaviest that does at least 1000fps) for the night table and walks in the Florida woods.........Lots of pigs out there......
HILLSIDEBLUE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2006, 11:01   #246
Ebb27
Senior Member
 
Ebb27's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: East of the mountains
Posts: 2,828
Small caliber bullets are suprisingly lethal, often more so than larger rounds. Unfortunately though it often takes awhile before they work their magic.

Bigger handgun calibers aren't necessarily any more lethal, but someone is a lot more likely to notice they've been shot with a .45 than with a .22 or at least worry more about it.

I know we've all been taught that "stopping-power" doesn't exist, but that's all bigger calibers really bring to the table, the same with HPs. Sure a larger caliber with HPs will create a more severe wound but unless that wound is to vital organs it won't be anymore lethal than a small caliber with FMJ. The increased chances of a pyschological reaction to the more severe wound is the principal advantage not increased lethality.

I think a lot of people feel that a gun gives you the power of life and death over someone, thus the more powerful the caliber the greater your power. In reality though you're just going to do someone an injury with a handgun. Possibly lethal but in most cases not.

Still though if I'm going to wound an attacker I prefer to wound them as severely as possible.
__________________
A Glock in the hand,
is worth two in the safe.

Last edited by Ebb27; 10-22-2006 at 13:06..
Ebb27 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2006, 16:51   #247
blinddog
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: SW Kansas 5 miles from nowhere
Posts: 1,771
As I have posted before i have worked many cases involving gunshots. Small calibers accounted for many more dead folks than did the larger calibers. But I have seen many more people who were shot with a small caliber. So proportunantly the larger calibers are more deadly. Case in point 1. Two men get into an argument at a bar one is 6'5" and 300 lbs. The other is 5'9" and about 165. The smaller man is the aggressor in the argument because the larger man just don't want to hurt him, (from his own statement)
The bartender ends up throwing the smaller man out of the bar. Half hour later the larger man decides to go home. As he walks out the door the smaller man fires seven shots at him from twenty feet, with a 380 auto. The larger man chases the little guy away on foot the little guy was much faster. the larger man then goes back in the bar because he hurt his ankle. He walks in ands a woman starts screaming because his shirt is covered in blood. He had been shot seven times once in the left wrist breaking his watch four times in the abdomen and chest once in the right thigh and once in the right ankle. At the ER the bullets to his chest and abdomen were all removed with foreceps from the fatty tissue none went into the actual body cavity, the worst wounds he had were to his ankle and wrist And what really PO'd him was his saicko watch got broken.

Incident 2 man DOA 1 round from a 380 fired at a downward angle next to the left side of his neck, the bullet bisected his heart killing him five minutes later.

The moral here is that yes a small caliber can kill rapidly under ideal conditions but conditions are very seldom ideal.
If you are ever called upon to defend your life or the life of somone else you need to use the largest hardest hitting hammer you can but you need to be able to hit with it.

Carry a 544 Casul or a 480 Ruger they are both very large but if you do not shoot them much due to recoil of ammo cost you are not likely to hit anything with them. Carry a 45 ACp a 40 S&W or even a 9MM if that is what you can shoot accurately. I would Never want to trust anything smaller than the a 40 S&W Myself though, and I prefer a 45.
__________________
You cannot always live as you wish, but you must always live as you can
G21 Club #0221
blinddog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2006, 18:36   #248
Sidekick
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 501
I knew a man who was shot twice in the chest with a 7MM Remington Magnum. Before he even went down, he drew his 1911 and emptied the magazine toward his assailant who had fired out of a van from across the street.

In my opinion, it's not so much the lack of performance in handgun cartridges as it is the human body's ability to absorb an enormous amount of trauma and still perform for a short time. He died a few minutes later, to be sure, but had his attacker been closer, he might have went with him.
__________________
Stay alert..........stay alive!
Sidekick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2006, 16:23   #249
bnlchris18
Senior Member
 
bnlchris18's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 186
Effective One Shot Stop

With a .45 ACP or larger caliber, firing one or more times into the assaulters pelvis will drop him instantly, the large caliber bullet will do one of two things, shatter the pelvis, causing extreme shock and trauma, or pass through the pelvic area into the spine. The assaulter will most definately become incapacitated. My uncle is a Doctor who goes to the same range, and he told me that the body will drop, as the legs cannnot fuction without the support structure of the pelvis. Many of the fireamrs instructors at the range I go to in Titusville Florida teach us to fire twice just bellow the belt line. Also, it takes less time to draw and fire at a lower target point than raising the weapon to fire at the center of mass, which is never a sure thing, or the head, which under stress, would be a very hard shot to pull off.
bnlchris18 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2006, 16:34   #250
bnlchris18
Senior Member
 
bnlchris18's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 186
One last thing, larger caliber bullets + bigger holes = faster blood loss. With a smaller caliber weapon such as the Glock 17, I think it would be best to fire three or more times into the assaulters sternum. If well trained however, a double tap with a smaller caliber weapon is almost or equal to a larger caliber weapon as two bullet wounds in a very small group should cause the same affect as one larger caliber wound. A pelvis shot with a smaller caliber weapon would be less likely to shatter bones, as to fragment or deflect into another direction after hitting the pelvic bone.
bnlchris18 is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 20:03.



Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 1,391
448 Members
943 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,244
Nov 11, 2013 at 11:42