GlockTalk.com
Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-04-2005, 17:45   #51
Black Snowman
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Kansas City, KS
Posts: 90
Send a message via Yahoo to Black Snowman
Over-hyped overpenetration

Over penetration for someone in a personal defense scenario, particularly with a handgun, is a non-issue. For organizations sending many rounds down range by people of variable experience and skill attempting to protect the public more than themselves, they have some room for concern.

It's my opinion that an under-penetrating round is more likely to cause loss of life do to an inability to rapidly stop a hostile target than even missed rounds having the unlikely result of striking an unintended target.

Look at the Hollywood shootout. 1000+ rounds of 7.62x39 FMJ expended by the bad guys and they only managed to hit people they were targeting. No reports of stray rounds hitting anyone. Even those who were hit, in one case 9 times, were able to be saved with fairly prompt medical attention. The only loss of life in that even were the 2 criminals.

Too me nearly any handgun round is going to be a compromise. I'll carry the biggest round I can carry and control. For me that usually works out to 10mm, .40 S&W and .45 ACP but I wouldn't feel bad about toting a 454 Casull or even a 500 S&W if the circumstances warranted it. But if I'm expecting trouble, I'll take .308 or 12 gauge slugs thank you.

My Dad's home defense pairing is a 44 Mag Blackhawk for checking noises and a 458 Win Mag if he's holed up waiting for the Police.

Good information to know:
http://www.firearmstactical.com

Quote:
-What good is all that power when the bullet passes through your fleshy target?!!??!
http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/b.../wounding.html
__________________
Gun control is a human rights violation.
Laws don't stop criminals. People do.

Last edited by Black Snowman; 03-04-2005 at 17:55..
Black Snowman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2005, 18:11   #52
PaleGreenHorse
10mm
 
PaleGreenHorse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 2,717


I thought lighting people on fire was against the geneva convention??? Well there goes your .454 casull idea, lol;f
__________________
G20, G29, G17, G19
PaleGreenHorse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2005, 19:43   #53
hollow10mm
cold,dead,hands
 
hollow10mm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Off The Grid
Posts: 531
same with the 4 inch 500 S&W.
__________________
Fmj, Jhp, Jsp, Efmj, it makes no difference with the precision i place my projectiles into the proper spot on a target.

Want to talk stoping power/ Firepower? Dont mention caliber, muzzle vel, or FPE, tell me about your group size's, and how fast you can place shots.
hollow10mm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2005, 09:16   #54
porterfield
Senior Member
 
porterfield's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Colorado
Posts: 364
I have read BlkSnow's overpenetration points on a different forum and all I have to say is--I couldn't agree more!
Great post.
porterfield is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2005, 09:28   #55
DonD
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Central TX
Posts: 4,156


I like the post, the only comment I'd have is that a max loaded .500 Mag will seriously outperform a .308 in anything but armor penetration and trajectory. My .500 Mag handloads have more energy and far more penetration and cross section. Don ;f ;f
DonD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2005, 09:53   #56
xd>glock2me
Republican
 
xd>glock2me's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: South
Posts: 1,973
Quote:
458 Win Mag

;P ;P ;P - should work good if a bear is in their also!

The 500 is such a big gun! I held a 4" the other day and it was just overwhelming!
__________________
"I thought you said you didn't want to come back out here tonight officer"

GLOCK 20
GLOCK 30
xd>glock2me is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2005, 19:35   #57
Black Snowman
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Kansas City, KS
Posts: 90
Send a message via Yahoo to Black Snowman
My Dad has spotted a Couger just behind their back yard fence mosying tward the nearby farm. He has some copper solids for disabling engines of escaping criminals as well. He's all sighted in for the road at the top of the hill.

Because laws don't stop criminals. People do.
__________________
Gun control is a human rights violation.
Laws don't stop criminals. People do.
Black Snowman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-29-2005, 19:07   #58
senseijohn
Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Maine
Posts: 39
Hi everyone. The overpenetration being discussed appears to be aimed (no pun) at human bad guys. My foremost thought in carrying the 10mm is canine. I live in Maine where it has become/is COOL to own a pit-bull terrier or Rottweiller. My youngest brother was attacked in front of me by a "TRAINED" dog. Hence, my sights (no pun) are set on Relative Firepower and absolutely stopping a aggressive threat from a dog. Anyone new to maine should be prepared for the reality of neighborhood gangs that will "send" a attack dog upon you or those you love. The idea is to attack with impunity. They do not register nor admit to owning a dog after the attack. Many such attacks take place, check the news. Lest we forget, what happens to the bullets that miss the bad guy. I understand that frangibles do in fact work on innocents. "you don't win a fight, you survive it."
__________________
There is no wisdom greater than compassion.
senseijohn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-2005, 15:25   #59
Darkangel1846
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Oregon
Posts: 3,678
Well I did do some research on over penitration. I found it to be somewhat mythical. You find traces of suspected overpenatration with innocent bystanders. But I think mostly its missed shots.
Although I find many a person talking about overpenatration, and what might happen, I can't seem to find any specific documented incidence where it did happened. Now I can find several references where bystanders were hit by wild (missed shots) shots fired by both police, criminals, and private citizens. Can't seem to find any documentation on through and through shots killing anyone else........except in theory or in movies.
My Glock 20 has become my most favoret handgun. For target I practice with standard rounds that are about 1000 fps. For CCW I pack the Double Tap 155 gr HPs, at close to 1500 fps. In the back woods I pack the 200 grain Penatrating HPs just incase Mr. Smoky Bear decides he wants to talk to me.
Next to the .44 mag, this is the most versital handgun on the Market.
Next The 6 inch compensated barrel.
Over Penatration is a myth started by some High ranking LEO who didn't want to take some heat for having to powerful a ammo.
DA

Last edited by Darkangel1846; 06-15-2005 at 15:28..
Darkangel1846 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2005, 16:57   #60
147 Grain
Senior Member
 
147 Grain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 372
Before worrying about overpenetration, we need to be more concerned with hitting the target.

We always here talk about a bullet going through somebody, but don't think twice about all the misses than put many more people at risk than a spent bullet exiting the BG.
147 Grain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2005, 18:30   #61
senseijohn
Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Maine
Posts: 39
Hi everyone. I am unsure of the source, however I recall hearing of an incident where a military diplomatic bodyguard needed to open fire in a crowded room. His solution was to drop to the floor landing on his elbows. He took a single shot with a .45auto killing the attacker. The angle to target was believed to be between 45 and 60 degrees. The Ambassador was quite impressed. MORAL: LEOs or civilians have the opportunity to move prior to a shot (ala the Mexican drill). That is to say, movement on any plane, in advance or retreat, horizontal or vertical to ensure the safest attack angle.
__________________
There is no wisdom greater than compassion.
senseijohn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-02-2005, 10:55   #62
Toomas
GMG 5"54calMk42
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: San Jose CA
Posts: 43
[QUOTE]
Quote:
Originally posted by senseijohn
You see, there are those that understand overpenetration very well and use it to their tactical advantage. In the case cited by senseimillajohn the bodyguard realized that all he had to do was to shoot through a few legs to kill the assassin. If he was to hit a bystander in the thigh then it could still pass through and find it's target and not cause collateral casualties. Overpenetration is not always a bad thing. ~rf

Overpenetration is not a myth since it is proven in terminal ballistics. Even though you do not hear about a lot of cases the potential does still exist and there must be some cases in print. In the civilian world, including civilian police, most folks use lower calibers that don't necessarily have the energy to overpenetrate a torso, and many folks also like to keep hollowpoints loaded. This combination keeps the number of incidents to a minimum.

Keep an eye out for any news stories of someone being shot with higher calibers-you may be able to find some case history. If you find any post them here.....
__________________
Glock 20; S&W SW40F; S&W 686 Plus; Magnum Research Mountain Eagle; Kel-Tec P-11; Win M70 Classic S/S; Schmidt Rubin K31; Lee Enfield No.4 Mk 1; Mosin Nagant M38 and M91/30; PROChina SKS; Westernfield M172B; Benelli Sport; Winchester M94's; Rem 597 LSS, Kel-Tec SU16, Benelli Nova H20
Toomas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-02-2005, 13:31   #63
147 Grain
Senior Member
 
147 Grain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 372
....but the frequency of being hit by an overpenetrating bullet is far less than being hit by a stray round at full power.

Overpenetration is the exception here and not the rule as too many are worried about.
147 Grain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-02-2005, 13:48   #64
Toomas
GMG 5"54calMk42
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: San Jose CA
Posts: 43
Quote:
Originally posted by 147 Grain
....but the frequency of being hit by an overpenetrating bullet is far less than being hit by a stray round at full power.

Overpenetration is the exception here and not the rule as too many are worried about.
I absolutely agree 100%. There are far too many folks buying firearms without putting enough thought and practice into it. Firearms owners have a responsibility to become somewhat proficient with their firearms so that they can actually hit a reasonable target. Most people couldn't hit a person standing in the same room much less standing 25 yards away. But it looks so easy on tv......

My G20 with 150 gn Noslers pushed by 7 grains of Winchester231 at about 1250 fps, topped by an eotech holosight, will keep 8 out of 10 on a 10" bell at 100 yards from an off hand modified weaver stance. I can hit any reasonable target (and them some), so I like to consider overpenetration in my home defense loads. I keep my 15 rd mag loaded with the first bullet being a 180 gn fmj for a warning shot (to me a warning shot is in the leg or foot), then I've got 6 glaser safety slugs, and then the rest are my pet homeloaded noslers.
__________________
Glock 20; S&W SW40F; S&W 686 Plus; Magnum Research Mountain Eagle; Kel-Tec P-11; Win M70 Classic S/S; Schmidt Rubin K31; Lee Enfield No.4 Mk 1; Mosin Nagant M38 and M91/30; PROChina SKS; Westernfield M172B; Benelli Sport; Winchester M94's; Rem 597 LSS, Kel-Tec SU16, Benelli Nova H20
Toomas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2005, 19:32   #65
Turk40SW
Senior Member
 
Turk40SW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Houston, Tx
Posts: 745
Send a message via AIM to Turk40SW Send a message via Yahoo to Turk40SW
warning shot?

IMHO that's a really bad idea.. If I need to pull the trigger, its because I want someone stopped right that very second.. Warning shots will get you killed or thrown in jail..

I prefer 12-14" of penetration.. 14 being a winter carry to deal with extra layering.

If I had the gear, I'd setup a chronometer on the back side of a 12" slab of Ballistics gelatin "wearing clothes" front and back with another slab behind it, also wearing "wearing clothes". Maybe a 3ft distance..

I'm not worried about overpenetration as i am missing.. I am guessing that after 12" of travel through COM the bullet's velocity has dropped so low, and expanded so large that the chances of causing major damage to a second person is slim.. I could be wrong, i'm just deducing

Last edited by Turk40SW; 08-11-2005 at 19:36..
Turk40SW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-2005, 22:32   #66
DonD
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Central TX
Posts: 4,156


For Toomas, if you fire a warning shot here in NM, you're likely to end up in jail. You may only shoot if you're at risk of death or serious bodily injury. You also cannot pull the gun to "warn" the assailant. Without real risk of the above serious injury or death, you're guilty of brandishing a firearm and again are in trouble. Don
DonD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2005, 18:25   #67
Darkangel1846
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Oregon
Posts: 3,678
Quote:
Originally posted by Toomas
I absolutely agree 100%. There are far too many folks buying firearms without putting enough thought and practice into it. Firearms owners have a responsibility to become somewhat proficient with their firearms so that they can actually hit a reasonable target. Most people couldn't hit a person standing in the same room much less standing 25 yards away. But it looks so easy on tv......

My G20 with 150 gn Noslers pushed by 7 grains of Winchester231 at about 1250 fps, topped by an eotech holosight, will keep 8 out of 10 on a 10" bell at 100 yards from an off hand modified weaver stance. I can hit any reasonable target (and them some), so I like to consider overpenetration in my home defense loads. I keep my 15 rd mag loaded with the first bullet being a 180 gn fmj for a warning shot (to me a warning shot is in the leg or foot), then I've got 6 glaser safety slugs, and then the rest are my pet homeloaded noslers.
What ya gonna do if your Eotech fails?
Darkangel1846 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2005, 10:31   #68
Toomas
GMG 5"54calMk42
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: San Jose CA
Posts: 43
Quote:
Originally posted by Darkangel1846
What ya gonna do if your Eotech fails?
I do put a lot of faith and trust in my eotechs. I have one on my hunting bow as well as my G20, and I have another that is currently on my backup bow, although I'm considering mounting it on my SKS. Needless to say, I use these eotechs for serious field work. I keep spare batteries on hand at all times just in case. If the eotech failed to light at a critical moment I would still feel comfortable hitting close my mark at close quarters by just looking through the blank window and relying on my natural instinct to point and shoot. Worst case scenario I'll grab another piece-I always keep backup close by. For the bow, if my eotech fails at a critical moment while hunting then I will miss my opportunity. But I keep the eotech mounted as such because of the trust and reliabilty I have in it, including the long battery life and ease of use.
__________________
Glock 20; S&W SW40F; S&W 686 Plus; Magnum Research Mountain Eagle; Kel-Tec P-11; Win M70 Classic S/S; Schmidt Rubin K31; Lee Enfield No.4 Mk 1; Mosin Nagant M38 and M91/30; PROChina SKS; Westernfield M172B; Benelli Sport; Winchester M94's; Rem 597 LSS, Kel-Tec SU16, Benelli Nova H20

Last edited by Toomas; 09-20-2005 at 10:37..
Toomas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2005, 11:43   #69
Toomas
GMG 5"54calMk42
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: San Jose CA
Posts: 43
Quote:
Originally posted by DonD
For Toomas, if you fire a warning shot here in NM, you're likely to end up in jail. You may only shoot if you're at risk of death or serious bodily injury. You also cannot pull the gun to "warn" the assailant. Without real risk of the above serious injury or death, you're guilty of brandishing a firearm and again are in trouble. Don
Again I agree 100%. I'll reiterate with a quote from my previous statement-"with the first bullet being a 180 gn fmj for a warning shot (to me a warning shot is in the leg or foot), ". I would never brandish my piece for a "show" of force and I would never fire at an inanimate object as a "warning" to whomever is posing a threat. My "warning" shot in the leg or foot (or even better the hip)is intended to debilitate and stop further progress of a life threatening assailant without killing them. I have a hard time believing that any state or local law would require that self defense situations demand a lethal shot while faulting a person for aiming to simply disable the attacker. Ideally the attacker will be kept alive so that they can be further be brought to justice and made into an example.

Nonlethal first shots are a bad idea for most "defenders" who need to ensure that the assailant does not have a second chance, and laws do penalize for intent to maim and cripple. And, of course deadly force can only be used if yours/others life is being immediately threatened. But it doesn't mean that you can't surgically stop your assailant. I'd love to hear more if there are cases where persons in defense situations were prosecuted for wounding their assailant where their intent was to protect themselves without killing someone.

I'm confident enough in my skills to attempt a nonlethal first shot if the situation warrants. The "warning" to the assailant is simply one that says "I am also armed and have attempted to stop your use of deadly force, and I will further use my deadly force if you do not cease and surrender". This situation cannot be illegal, but please cite an example of a law or case study if it is. I'd be fascinated to see this.

Now if I'm faced with a situation where I feel that I may not have the first shot, or if I cannot get a good bead, then torso it is.

The mantras in the basic gun handling rules do say that you should never produce a firearm without full intent to use it with deadly force, and that you should never aim it without intent to destroy your target. The complete set of gun rules and many others are fully engrained in me through training and experience. If I pull a piece, then it will be used appropriately, but I will limit the use of that force to a less lethal level if at all possible.
__________________
Glock 20; S&W SW40F; S&W 686 Plus; Magnum Research Mountain Eagle; Kel-Tec P-11; Win M70 Classic S/S; Schmidt Rubin K31; Lee Enfield No.4 Mk 1; Mosin Nagant M38 and M91/30; PROChina SKS; Westernfield M172B; Benelli Sport; Winchester M94's; Rem 597 LSS, Kel-Tec SU16, Benelli Nova H20
Toomas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2005, 12:20   #70
senseijohn
Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Maine
Posts: 39
Hi everyone. Mr. Toomas, a "surgical" shot placement in a gunfight is not probable. At the range you may group quite well, however, the range is not a gunfight. For your amusement, at the range please do 100 jumping-jacks, followed by 50 sit-ups, followed by 30 push-ups. This should mimic the physiological stressors of a firearm confrontation. Immediatly attempt to make your "surgical" shots at around 5 to 7 meters. This should provide you with enlightenment. Good luck.
__________________
There is no wisdom greater than compassion.
senseijohn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2005, 23:51   #71
bdcochran
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 2,644
over penetration

Is overpenetration a problem?

Hmmm! Is overpenetration a matter of the round going through the intended target, exiting and hitting something you don't want to hit? Well, if so, you have options:

1. do not shoot;
2. aim to hit the target in a location where any overpentration will not hit something you want to hit.

Is overpentration a matter of the round not remaining in the target and you having a belief that the round will penetrate and exit the target? Well, if so, let's explore the options:

1. hit the target where over penetration will not occur. This sounds ludicrous when you are shooting an exposed hand, an exposed knee or elbow of a BG, right? And, just how often do you personally think that you will have a stationary target 6 feet away that it allows you to shoot center mass all day?
2. hit the target with a blunt instrument like 28 inch cast iron water pipe with end caps; knock the target down with your martial arts skills

The discussion of "overpenetration" usually occurs in the context of shooting a shotgun inside an apartment or shooting a rifle round. My attitude may not be politically correct. Too bad. I want a round that goes through walls, car engines, car doors and when it hits someone, the person goes down for the count. I don't want to have to be thinking about select slug drills, low recoil or whimp rounds, using underpowered rounds that will get me killed. If I am concerned about the backdrop to the BG, I change the angle of the shot or simply decide that I don't mind being killed because I am concerned about a round going through a BG or a wall and hitting someone else. ;z
bdcochran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2005, 13:46   #72
Toomas
GMG 5"54calMk42
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: San Jose CA
Posts: 43
Re: over penetration

The hip is a good point to aim at for most situations, since:
1. it will allow a lower angle of trajectory, helping to minimize overpenetration risks
2. it's a fairly large mass to aim at
3. immediate disablement and loss of balance
4. not necessarily lethal
5. lots of bone to help limit overpenetration
6. if the target is moving the torso follows the hip

But in the heat of the moment it's not easy to remember the drills so you've just go to do whatever it takes....
__________________
Glock 20; S&W SW40F; S&W 686 Plus; Magnum Research Mountain Eagle; Kel-Tec P-11; Win M70 Classic S/S; Schmidt Rubin K31; Lee Enfield No.4 Mk 1; Mosin Nagant M38 and M91/30; PROChina SKS; Westernfield M172B; Benelli Sport; Winchester M94's; Rem 597 LSS, Kel-Tec SU16, Benelli Nova H20
Toomas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2005, 15:20   #73
boraxis
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 48


walls

I always thought the issue was accidental wall or barrier "overpenetration" when you miss, because you can't take into account who might be behind the target if you can't see them through the wall. It's probably not practical to be too concerned about it otherwise and it's ridiculous to say you'll just be sure not to miss.

If you saw your kid or your Mom or your favorite dog right behind a BG, you'd probably automatically consider the consequences of a miss or overpenetration, even if all you were shooting was a .22 pistol. I hope.

You have to choose where you find a balance and be prepared to take responsibility for your choice. Between a .454 and a 10mm I'd go with the 10 for home defense, any load. My neighbor though, I hope he has a 9. What about your neighbor?
boraxis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2005, 22:08   #74
ppro
Senior Member
 
ppro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Idaho
Posts: 276
10MM OVER penetration

Over Penetration with the 10MM

Over, under, insufficient, excessive ????

Ye gods, what have the lawyers done to us !! ;P

I don't cop anymore....worse yet, I am federal contract, armed in a room full of people, often off their meds, 10/96 and hopefully off their illegal drugs. Oh fun !

I don't worry about over penetration, but I run EVERY CONCEIVABLE TATICAL mental what if, on a regular basis, and PRACTICE.

Over penetration is probably the least of my worries. NOT STOPPING a armed crazed assailant intent on taking out other innocent persons, worries me much more.

Paul
ppro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2005, 07:01   #75
boraxis
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 48


Re: 10MM OVER penetration

Quote:
Originally posted by ppro
Over Penetration with the 10MM

Ye gods, what have the lawyers done to us !! ;P

Crap, the lawyers had me believing it was the gun mags that did this to us! Good post ppro. In real life my best neighbor has a .44 Mag and I appreciate having him around, especially in this neighborhood.
boraxis is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 19:09.



Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 1,503
497 Members
1,006 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,244
Nov 11, 2013 at 11:42