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Old 10-14-2004, 23:59   #21
JoeSnuffy
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Well penetration can be an issue if you are using hot and heavy loads

Why just the other day I was out on a good friend of mines Swift Boat
and we were surprised to see a big blue whale....

My friends boat is about 50 ft. long and that whale must have been twice that length...at least 100 ft long if he was an inch...had to go well over 150 tons to boot...

Well sir lucky for me I had my skinning knife and my G20 with the 6 inch barrel

I took a shot at that ole ceatacean but he sounded right off our port bow...at least I think it was port...I had the wine bottle in my left hand and the G20 in my right..so yep it was our port bow...

I figured he was doing a few knots faster than we were so I knew I had to lead him by about half a boat length....The sonar was popping pretty loud as that big blue boy was headed down past 250 fathoms...I knew I had to shoot or risk a miss at that depth..

I fired and then once again for good luck...those big beartooth bullets dove deep...and must have tore a big hole through that monster...he rose from the deep like a Polaris missle and danced on his tail like Flipper (you know him...They call him flipper flipper faster than lightning...no one you see is smarter than he)... on Mexican Red Meth

Thats when we could see daylight clean through his mid section...and fluffy white clouds...

Well sir things picked up after that...a US Navy fast attack sub also came to the surface and boy was the captain mad...Seems that round went clean through that whale and down through the conning tower of that sub...shot a hole in the Captains head (the crapper to you land lubbers) messed up several back issues of Handgunner magazine and exited clean out the bottom of his boat...

To make matters worse that bullet must have had a lot of energy left because he got a report from the state dept that a chinaman was shot right off his front porch by a bullet that came up from underneath him right through his concrete basement floor...the bullet went clean through that chinamans leg and then it musta went up through his roof and hit his son who was replacing those red tiles they are all so fond of...he fell off and landed in a big bucket of fish heads

So now I suppose they want the US taxpayers to pay for their lunch...

It next downed a ChiCom Mig fighter jet and then a Rooskie communication satelite..

Where it went after that is kinda a mystery but ...I think those sunspots we have been having are no accident...

Moral of the story...watch where you point that thing...

I hereby testify this here story is completely true...and my friend John Kerry says if I vote for him a few dozen times like a whole bunch of other folks have promised or been paid to... he will vouch for it...

And who wouldnt believe a self decorated war hero from Massashoo****..(gusuntheit)
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Old 10-15-2004, 11:03   #22
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I was a little sceptical about this story, so i checked it out with the CBS and the Chinese News Service...

IT'S TRUE!!!

Joe, that story is classic! It really belongs not just here, but in the "8:40 PM" thread. Feel free to repeat that story there, it'll fit right in!

Hey, on a side note, i thought that song "Flipper" was written about John Kerry?

;f
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Old 10-17-2004, 13:54   #23
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http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1248042/posts



Satellite Smashes Chinese House
BBC News ^ | 17 OCT 2004

Posted on 10/17/2004 2:23:37 PM CDT by Anduril1

Sunday, 17 October, 2004, 11:06 GMT 12:06 UK

Satellite smashes Chinese house

A Chinese satellite has smashed into a villager's house on its return to earth, the country's media reports. The satellite destroyed
the building in Sichuan province, but officials say no-one was hurt.

A local newspaper printed a picture of a kettle-shaped capsule which appeared to be about two metres long, lying amid broken
bricks, beams and roof tiles.

The satellite was part of a space probe to carry out land surveys and other research, Xinhua news agency said.

"The satellite landed in our home. Maybe this means we'll have good luck this year," the tenant of the wrecked apartment was quoted
as saying by the newspaper.

Yeah well...If you ask me the Party officials can keep their their version of the story....General Paos Kung Fu Chicken Coop Soup will freeze over before they would ever admit that that 10mm hole through it is what really brought her down or that an interprising young capitalist in Utah mighta had somethin' to do with it....
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Old 10-22-2004, 06:51   #24
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Methinks y'all been sniffin' the 231 jug again... ;z

$bob$
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Old 10-25-2004, 01:48   #25
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Ridiculous

This thread is ridiculous. So many things can and do go wrong in any type of gun fight. There are so many enormous risks. All gun fights are about choosing the best among several very bad options. There are NO good outcomes in a gunfight. Even the best possible case, where the display of a gun causes the situation to de-escalate, is still a bad outcome, because lethal force entered the scenario, even if it wasn't used. All handgun rounds are under-powered and inadequate and none of them penetrate adequately. You want a round that will dump as much eneergy as possible, cause as much tissue damage as possible, and penetrate as deeply as possible, and that means either a rifle round or a shotgun blast. Any pistol round is going to come up short compared to a rifle or a shotgun. A bullet may have to go through multiple layers of clothing, skin and bone, plus inches of fat and muscle, to get through to anything where it might cause incapacitation. Or it might have to go through a car door, a piece of furniture, etc, plus bone, fat and muscle to hopefully get to a major nerve center, heart or blood vessel. NO handgun round (other than hunting rounds) can do that reliably.

Yes, sure, perhaps a bullet could go through a target and cause harm on the other side... but if some innocent person is so close to someone who is causing deadly harm, the situation is horrible, someone is almost certain to be getting hurt anyway. That should be a very rare situation, unless you're a SWAT sniper, in which case you might use special frangible ammo, etc for something like that. If you're wasting time planning for these extremely rare and dangerous situations, then you must train continuously and be absolutely sharp for all the other much more likely situations. Even these "likely" situations are things that few of us will ever encounter in our lives, thank God.

Use the most powerful round you can handle, always, unless you really are on a SWAT team and you anticipate dealing with hostages, shootouts in drug labs, shootouts on an airplane, etc. All pistols are inadequate weapons. It's what you have because you can't carry a rifle or a shotgun, both of which always have more penetration that pistols.
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Old 10-29-2004, 20:06   #26
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Exactly!

That is why I always carry my bazooka. It can penetrate several inches of steel armor and blast the "soft organ" critters inside.

Did I mention that the bazooka I carry is made by Gaston? It is his model 20! I choose my loading carefully, too!
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Old 11-03-2004, 07:55   #27
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So, how you like my little friend? She's a bazooooooka!

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Old 11-09-2004, 09:34   #28
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does 10 mm over penetrate

i was told by police friends that their depts consider 10mm a liabilty because of its probability to pass through people even in hollow point. is that true.
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Old 11-09-2004, 09:49   #29
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Now my thoughts; Every bullet has the potential of overpentrating, crap every thing a dept does could be "potential liability". ( recalled young lady killed with less-than lethal ammo a few weeks back .......)


Think about this for one second, most LEOs today that use the 10mm used the 10mm lite aka 40sw performance. So if most of the LEO agencies in the USA are using a 40sw caliber and most of the 10mms stills in services are using 40sw "like performance" ala "10mm-lite/FBI-lite/etc.... ) then they should be at no more risk of over penetrating.

The police force should worry more about markmanship and actually hitting a person vrs over penetration issues. You probably stand more of a chance of being hit by a miss than a overpenetrated projectile. ;f
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Old 11-11-2004, 22:15   #30
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He said 'overpenetration'.

heh, heh, heh, heh
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Old 11-12-2004, 15:21   #31
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The final word: Every single "failure to stop", both on the street and in the woods, that I have personally witnessed, has been due to insufficient penetration. No exceptions.

On the other hand, the "fastest stops" have always been the result of COM hits with high velocity bullets, especially expanding bullets.

Best loads = deep penetrating, high velocity JHP's. ^c
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Old 11-14-2004, 16:40   #32
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10mm

from my research, Most of the commercially available 10mm loads are loaded within 50fps on 40sw loads. The only high-energy loads are hard to find, like doubletap or cor-bon. Full loads to have increased flash, recoil, and penetration, but you already new that.
Got a 10mm? Federal Hydrashoks are a lite round and have good power. I would run full power if I had a 10mm, Because, isn't that way you bought it?

My advise is: buy different ammo, have fun trying what feels good to you.
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Old 12-08-2004, 20:46   #33
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Do we really have a thread titled
"Sticky Overpenetration" ?
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Old 12-23-2004, 13:17   #34
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The only way to kill something (quickly) is through blood loss or CNS damage. Assuming that hitting a target as small as the CNS in a fast moving, three dimensional, unpredictable, high stress environments is not going to happen reliably - then you should be shooting center torso for the purpose of blood loss. Your bullet needs to penetrate through the body (bones, muscle, etc) and do as much cutting as possible to maximize blood loss. That is it.

Now I would say, and this is just personal opinion mingled in with various facts, that a bullet needs three things to kill:

1) Mass - enough inertia to pass through the body. Very light bullets simply do not have enough mass to do this. They will transfer 100% of their energy to the much heavier body nearly instantly, resulting in all of their energy being transferred very shallowly.

2) Velocity - the faster the bullet is going, the more energy it has to pass through the body. Tissue does not have time to "move out of the way" of a faster moving bullet, resulting in more tissue damage. There is NOT that much energy in a bullet, the reason it does so much damage is that the effects of that energy are "deposited" into the body in such a short amount of time.

3) Bullet design - cutting edges and tissue damage. Hollow points have sharper edges and larger diameters, so they can do more tissue damage and cause more blood loss.


So assuming that your bullet has been designed to achieve every bit of cutting that is physically possible, the best way to maximize lethality is to make the bullet heavy enough to go through the entire body (because the more damage the bullet does, the more blood loss occurs), and with enough velocity to go through the entire body.

Any time you try to make a bullet so that it won't pass through the body (to prevent overpenetration) you have to be decreasing effectiveness in killing the target. Period. If the bullet stops halfway through the body, then something is wrong.

Just my opinion - but I want any bullets that I shoot to go completely through the BG.
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Old 12-28-2004, 09:02   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by rickyj
The only way to kill something (quickly) is through blood loss or CNS damage. Assuming that hitting a target as small as the CNS in a fast moving, three dimensional, unpredictable, high stress environments is not going to happen reliably - then you should be shooting center torso for the purpose of blood loss. Your bullet needs to penetrate through the body (bones, muscle, etc) and do as much cutting as possible to maximize blood loss. That is it.

Now I would say, and this is just personal opinion mingled in with various facts, that a bullet needs three things to kill:

1) Mass - enough inertia to pass through the body. Very light bullets simply do not have enough mass to do this. They will transfer 100% of their energy to the much heavier body nearly instantly, resulting in all of their energy being transferred very shallowly.

2) Velocity - the faster the bullet is going, the more energy it has to pass through the body. Tissue does not have time to "move out of the way" of a faster moving bullet, resulting in more tissue damage. There is NOT that much energy in a bullet, the reason it does so much damage is that the effects of that energy are "deposited" into the body in such a short amount of time.

3) Bullet design - cutting edges and tissue damage. Hollow points have sharper edges and larger diameters, so they can do more tissue damage and cause more blood loss.


So assuming that your bullet has been designed to achieve every bit of cutting that is physically possible, the best way to maximize lethality is to make the bullet heavy enough to go through the entire body (because the more damage the bullet does, the more blood loss occurs), and with enough velocity to go through the entire body.

Any time you try to make a bullet so that it won't pass through the body (to prevent overpenetration) you have to be decreasing effectiveness in killing the target. Period. If the bullet stops halfway through the body, then something is wrong.

Just my opinion - but I want any bullets that I shoot to go completely through the BG.
Agreed. That's why I carry 200g. XTPs @ 1,250 fps. in my 20 and 29.
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Old 01-12-2005, 14:46   #36
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I agree. I've never worried about "over penetration", which is more of a legal issue than a survival issue. It's under penetration that concerns me. ;P

Last edited by V Creed; 01-21-2005 at 11:22..
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Old 01-29-2005, 21:45   #37
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XTPs for defense? To each their own. If I wanted something truly WICKED, I believe I would stick with Double Tap's 165 grain Gold Dots.
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Old 02-03-2005, 22:33   #38
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I completely penetraded a black bear with 1 round of hornaday 200 grn XTP from a glock 29 so yes if you shoot corbon or double tap your looking at a round that has the potential to over penitrate would I worry about it? nah
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Old 02-04-2005, 00:47   #39
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I'm curious. How heavy was that bear, Stick?
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Old 02-04-2005, 01:27   #40
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big, I dont have his weight or age infront of me, but in the 550-600 range
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