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Old 10-29-2004, 20:06   #26
PurchGuru
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Exactly!

That is why I always carry my bazooka. It can penetrate several inches of steel armor and blast the "soft organ" critters inside.

Did I mention that the bazooka I carry is made by Gaston? It is his model 20! I choose my loading carefully, too!
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Old 11-03-2004, 06:55   #27
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So, how you like my little friend? She's a bazooooooka!

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Old 11-09-2004, 08:34   #28
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does 10 mm over penetrate

i was told by police friends that their depts consider 10mm a liabilty because of its probability to pass through people even in hollow point. is that true.
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Old 11-09-2004, 08:49   #29
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Now my thoughts; Every bullet has the potential of overpentrating, crap every thing a dept does could be "potential liability". ( recalled young lady killed with less-than lethal ammo a few weeks back .......)


Think about this for one second, most LEOs today that use the 10mm used the 10mm lite aka 40sw performance. So if most of the LEO agencies in the USA are using a 40sw caliber and most of the 10mms stills in services are using 40sw "like performance" ala "10mm-lite/FBI-lite/etc.... ) then they should be at no more risk of over penetrating.

The police force should worry more about markmanship and actually hitting a person vrs over penetration issues. You probably stand more of a chance of being hit by a miss than a overpenetrated projectile. ;f
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Old 11-11-2004, 21:15   #30
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He said 'overpenetration'.

heh, heh, heh, heh
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Old 11-12-2004, 14:21   #31
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The final word: Every single "failure to stop", both on the street and in the woods, that I have personally witnessed, has been due to insufficient penetration. No exceptions.

On the other hand, the "fastest stops" have always been the result of COM hits with high velocity bullets, especially expanding bullets.

Best loads = deep penetrating, high velocity JHP's. ^c
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Old 11-14-2004, 15:40   #32
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10mm

from my research, Most of the commercially available 10mm loads are loaded within 50fps on 40sw loads. The only high-energy loads are hard to find, like doubletap or cor-bon. Full loads to have increased flash, recoil, and penetration, but you already new that.
Got a 10mm? Federal Hydrashoks are a lite round and have good power. I would run full power if I had a 10mm, Because, isn't that way you bought it?

My advise is: buy different ammo, have fun trying what feels good to you.
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Old 12-08-2004, 19:46   #33
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Do we really have a thread titled
"Sticky Overpenetration" ?
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Old 12-23-2004, 12:17   #34
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The only way to kill something (quickly) is through blood loss or CNS damage. Assuming that hitting a target as small as the CNS in a fast moving, three dimensional, unpredictable, high stress environments is not going to happen reliably - then you should be shooting center torso for the purpose of blood loss. Your bullet needs to penetrate through the body (bones, muscle, etc) and do as much cutting as possible to maximize blood loss. That is it.

Now I would say, and this is just personal opinion mingled in with various facts, that a bullet needs three things to kill:

1) Mass - enough inertia to pass through the body. Very light bullets simply do not have enough mass to do this. They will transfer 100% of their energy to the much heavier body nearly instantly, resulting in all of their energy being transferred very shallowly.

2) Velocity - the faster the bullet is going, the more energy it has to pass through the body. Tissue does not have time to "move out of the way" of a faster moving bullet, resulting in more tissue damage. There is NOT that much energy in a bullet, the reason it does so much damage is that the effects of that energy are "deposited" into the body in such a short amount of time.

3) Bullet design - cutting edges and tissue damage. Hollow points have sharper edges and larger diameters, so they can do more tissue damage and cause more blood loss.


So assuming that your bullet has been designed to achieve every bit of cutting that is physically possible, the best way to maximize lethality is to make the bullet heavy enough to go through the entire body (because the more damage the bullet does, the more blood loss occurs), and with enough velocity to go through the entire body.

Any time you try to make a bullet so that it won't pass through the body (to prevent overpenetration) you have to be decreasing effectiveness in killing the target. Period. If the bullet stops halfway through the body, then something is wrong.

Just my opinion - but I want any bullets that I shoot to go completely through the BG.
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Old 12-28-2004, 08:02   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by rickyj
The only way to kill something (quickly) is through blood loss or CNS damage. Assuming that hitting a target as small as the CNS in a fast moving, three dimensional, unpredictable, high stress environments is not going to happen reliably - then you should be shooting center torso for the purpose of blood loss. Your bullet needs to penetrate through the body (bones, muscle, etc) and do as much cutting as possible to maximize blood loss. That is it.

Now I would say, and this is just personal opinion mingled in with various facts, that a bullet needs three things to kill:

1) Mass - enough inertia to pass through the body. Very light bullets simply do not have enough mass to do this. They will transfer 100% of their energy to the much heavier body nearly instantly, resulting in all of their energy being transferred very shallowly.

2) Velocity - the faster the bullet is going, the more energy it has to pass through the body. Tissue does not have time to "move out of the way" of a faster moving bullet, resulting in more tissue damage. There is NOT that much energy in a bullet, the reason it does so much damage is that the effects of that energy are "deposited" into the body in such a short amount of time.

3) Bullet design - cutting edges and tissue damage. Hollow points have sharper edges and larger diameters, so they can do more tissue damage and cause more blood loss.


So assuming that your bullet has been designed to achieve every bit of cutting that is physically possible, the best way to maximize lethality is to make the bullet heavy enough to go through the entire body (because the more damage the bullet does, the more blood loss occurs), and with enough velocity to go through the entire body.

Any time you try to make a bullet so that it won't pass through the body (to prevent overpenetration) you have to be decreasing effectiveness in killing the target. Period. If the bullet stops halfway through the body, then something is wrong.

Just my opinion - but I want any bullets that I shoot to go completely through the BG.
Agreed. That's why I carry 200g. XTPs @ 1,250 fps. in my 20 and 29.
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Old 01-12-2005, 13:46   #36
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I agree. I've never worried about "over penetration", which is more of a legal issue than a survival issue. It's under penetration that concerns me. ;P

Last edited by V Creed; 01-21-2005 at 10:22..
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Old 01-29-2005, 20:45   #37
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XTPs for defense? To each their own. If I wanted something truly WICKED, I believe I would stick with Double Tap's 165 grain Gold Dots.
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Old 02-03-2005, 21:33   #38
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I completely penetraded a black bear with 1 round of hornaday 200 grn XTP from a glock 29 so yes if you shoot corbon or double tap your looking at a round that has the potential to over penitrate would I worry about it? nah
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Old 02-03-2005, 23:47   #39
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I'm curious. How heavy was that bear, Stick?
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Old 02-04-2005, 00:27   #40
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big, I dont have his weight or age infront of me, but in the 550-600 range
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Old 02-04-2005, 00:34   #41
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Then that was a helluva shot with a FACTORY XTP! McNett has said that he recommends his HOT XTPs on bears up to 400 pounds. With a G20. Maybe he's a bit on the conservative side. Ya think?
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Old 02-04-2005, 02:01   #42
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Way to revive a thread, AK_Stick!

Where'd ya hit 'em, what angle, how thick was he, boar or sow, and did you hit any bones?

Oh, and how far did he go???

Inquiring minds want to know!

A G29, no less! Ya got ta love it!

Pictures????
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Old 02-04-2005, 12:28   #43
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QUOTE: "A G29, no less! Ya got ta love it!"

Yeah, I saw that too. THAT was one helluva shot! But I believe I would have wanted a long gun for backup somewhere in the equation, just in case.....
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Old 02-04-2005, 14:07   #44
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Quote:
Originally posted by Chainsaw Maniac
QUOTE: "A G29, no less! Ya got ta love it!"

Yeah, I saw that too. THAT was one helluva shot! But I believe I would have wanted a long gun for backup somewhere in the equation, just in case.....
Awww... com'on Chainsaw! Ya just know that would take all the fun out of it! ;f
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Old 02-04-2005, 15:21   #45
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it was a lucky shot, between two ribs into the heart and lungs and through the other side without hitting any bones. Would I count on it again? hell no, would I use a XTP on bear again? probably but only if I couldn't get some DT, it was rather different being only a few yards from a large black bear, even with my 375 ICL laying across my lap with 5 rounds of 300 grn persuasion
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Old 02-04-2005, 15:22   #46
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I'll try to find the story, I posted it here back right after I took him, but that was in june...
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Old 02-04-2005, 16:15   #47
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QUOTE: "it was a lucky shot, between two ribs into the heart and lungs and through the other side without hitting any bones"

I wondered about that. But I still say it was a helluva shot. And with a G29 to boot! We'll probably be talking about that one for a while.

Next time we hear someone try to claim that a G29 performs like a .40, I now have the perfect answer!
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Old 02-04-2005, 18:27   #48
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I had my 375 ICL very close, and my buddy backing me up with a 338 and 44 just incase

here are some pictures, sorry they arn't very good, it was getting dark and we had two bears to skin. (other bear was hit by the 375 with a finisher put in him from the 10mm)

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Old 02-04-2005, 20:32   #49
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Nice work, Mr. Stick! ;c ;c ;c
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Old 02-28-2005, 20:19   #50
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Considering these facts before accepting through-n-throughs:
-Virtually all handgun rounds vary in diameter only approx one quarter of an inch (.22 vs .50 is only .28 inches).
-Expansion of these rounds upon impact then makes the "hole" vary up to another quarter to half of an inch.
-The above numbers are much smaller when considering the fact that most of us are using something between a 9mm and a .45 cal.
-Most of you brag about your preferred hot loads. Hot loads add velocity and torque. Think about WHY you are getting excited about these hot loads. It's because they have more power. Power for what?
-Power to penetrate, power to cause impact stress, power to knock down, power to cause damage when penetrating soft tissues.
-What good is all that power when the bullet passes through your fleshy target?!!??!

OK, maybe you were 1/16" closer to a major blood vessel because of expansion or because you simply have a big bore. Maybe your full penetration cut throgh an extra 2" of ribs and meat, but if that's the case then you've already went beyond the vitals. Human torsos front to back are average less than a foot thick, and most game animals are about 2 feet thick. If yuo pass through these then consider how much damage you've caused with your wound cavities, and think about all of the power you've wasted. Keep the power in your target for best results in maximizing the wound cavities. A hole doesn't always keep your game in place.
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