Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.

 
  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-05-2007, 15:05   #461
G20man32904
Deceased
 
G20man32904's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Melbourne, Fl
Posts: 2,454
WOW Pru!
Congrats on doing your homework and knowing your dog!!! This will be easy because of you already have a basic understanding of what is going on. Since there is soo much in your post I will take things one at a time and let me know if I skip over something.

Quote:
Background: Rescue dog from Puerto Rico, it's safe to assume he was significantly abused. Oh, and he's just a MUTT (God love him!). 30lbs, knee-high, solid, medium in all ways. Was in foster home in PR for a couple of months, then fostered locally for two or three more "because he was so shy." I'm not dog experienced, but I've done a TON of reading, and I don't think he's shy; he's submissive. *shrug*
Ok, don’t think submissive here, think NO CONFIDENCE! that is because no one has spoken “dog” to him and he was highly confused in the foster environment. We can fix this by using a normal buckle type collar and not a choker. Go easy on corrections unless he is being aggressive (read: mostly verbal).

Exactly how I mean with the housebreaking, you speak “dog” to him and he will learn very quickly.

Quote:
For correction, I usually grunt "Aaaant" somewhat like a "wrong answer" buzzer on a game show. He stops the incorrect behavior and takes a submissive posture.
See? Make sure to follow up every correction with an appropriate amount of praise, (in relation to how “hard” the correction was given).

Quote:
Big One: He's protective to a fault.

He's got this 'berzerk' bark he uses sometimes. For example, if he's out in the yard he 'regular' barks if someone walks by. He 'berzerk' barks if someone goes buy with a kid in a noisy little red wagon or if a loud motorcycle drives by too slowly. The berzerk bark is snarly and he snorts when he breathes in between barks. His brain is in overdrive and he can't hear me. He has one other bark: If we're inside and he hears a suspicious noise, he does a low 'hoof/woof' bark that says "Mom, something's up, let's check it out." If I don't respond to that, he noses me till I do - I LIKE that behaviour.
Ok, this is very close to a dangerous dog. From what I have read so far, he sounds like a fear biter. This is not good for anyone including your “alarm bark”. In reading his barks, start correcting every bark that is not his deep hoof/woof. If someone is a potential threat to you or your home praise him lavishly. Now, what is a threat? A leaf blowing across the yard? A cat snuggling up to the exterior wall? A person walking on the sidewalk? NO, NO, NO. A threat is someone/vehicle in your yard actively moving towards a door or window. This will take some time to get work in and get used to, but, he can and will learn to decipher what is a threat and what bears watching or more investigation.

Quote:
Further, he does not believe that anyone should be allowed in our home, besides the family and one local relative. He has nipped at the shoes of child guests (I kennelled him for the duration of the play date). He nipped at a friend's jeans-covered ankle and left two small bruises.
From this day forward, whenever anybody comes to the house leash him up to you.
If he makes an aggressive move, go ballistic with verbal and a leash correction. Your timing here is critical and is much more important (at that time then any visitor).
Putting him away tells him he is a dangerous dog and reinforces the behavior.

Quote:
We got trick-or-treaters on Halloween. I had him separated from the door with a 'dog board'. He jumped behind it (not over it - thank God!), doing the 'berzerk' bark. I think he goes more berzerk over kids than adults (not good).
Halloween is tough. If you must give out candy, take the dog on leash outside the house and do a nice down stay (for up to an hour) in the far corner of the front yard. Make sure the kids are well lit up on the porch so he can see there is no threat or problem. For this reason I leave my house blacked out for Halloween and I stand out on the sidewalk for the kids. My dogs will go after anything with a mask because that’s what they are taught during training. Rather than undue that ward work, I just don’t expose them to kids in masks.

Quote:
Second issue: He doesn't potty on the leash. Foster mom told me so, and she seems correct. He held it for 12 hours when we drove to visit grandma...then peed 3 times in 10 minutes. lol But there may come a time when he can NOT be off leash; he needs to get over this.
I guarantee we can wait him out on this. Try using a longer piece of rope (maybe 20ft). He can’t hold it forever. When he does go praise him heavily. If he wont do a BM on the leash, simply take a paper match and wet it with saliva and put it in his rump, as deep as you can with needing gloves. The sulphur will dissolve cause the sphincter tone to lose control and he will go usually in the first 5-10minutes. Again when he does praise him lavishly with a “potty” word. I use “do it” for a BM and “hit it” to go pee. Pretty soon you can have do both in under 5mins wherever you need them to go. Great on road trips btw.

Ok, Down stay command.
First, this must be done on leash, second where you drop him is where he is to stay. If he starts to belly crawl, he is wrong. Tell him so and physically move him to where you dropped him. Start with 5minutes and workup to 90minutes. This is only for a down stay. A sit stay should not be held for more that 5minutes due to hip structures. Also, with a sit stay, watch the surface to make sure he has traction.
Reward lavishly for a nice long down stay and use the kids as distraction.

Distractions,
Find a place where there are lots of kids and motorcycles and muzzle him and work that down stay. This is called “flooding” and is what you need to do to get him thru these things.

So how is that for a start?
__________________
Did you pet your dog today?
Proud owner of Black rifles and Assault Canines !!!
G20man32904 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2007, 15:33   #462
Pru
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 101
Thanks for the quick reply! I'll go back thru this thread; I know you've addressed low confidence a few times. I didn't pay much attention because I didn't realize that applies to us.

When he's in the yard and someone goes by, he runs back and forth along the fence, whether it's the 'regular' bark or the berzerk bark. I can't usually catch him to correct him, so I assume you'll recommend that he only be outside if I can be with him and leash him, right?

Is it necessary to have different words for pee & poop? We've just always used "go potty".

For the downstay, do you start working with distractions at this stage or wait until the skills are solid withOUT distractions?

I agree with you that he is approaching dangerous. And I sure hope we can 'fix' it, because he's terrific in every other way and we love him to pieces!

Thanks again.
Pru is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2007, 19:11   #463
G20man32904
Deceased
 
G20man32904's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Melbourne, Fl
Posts: 2,454
No problem, the fast response isn't the norm though.
Quote:
When he's in the yard and someone goes by, he runs back and forth along the fence, whether it's the 'regular' bark or the berzerk bark. I can't usually catch him to correct him, so I assume you'll recommend that he only be outside if I can be with him and leash him, right?
Yup, its called fence running and no more of that! Put him on a 30ft leash or a remote correction collar (once we build his confidence up some).

Work that Down stay with as many distractions as you can find right away. I like to get the kids involved here. Have them do everythingh BUT CALL HIM TO THEM!! They can pull on the lead, play with him, throw treats to him, throw treats around him. However if he cannot reach a treat without breaking the stay he does not get the treat until he is released.


We can absolutely "fix" him. As soon as we are thru with you.
__________________
Did you pet your dog today?
Proud owner of Black rifles and Assault Canines !!!
G20man32904 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2007, 00:08   #464
Blinky
Rocket Surgeon
 
Blinky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Beaver, OR
Posts: 6,856
Send a message via AIM to Blinky Send a message via MSN to Blinky Send a message via Yahoo to Blinky
Right on Mike, I didn't know about the match stick trick. That's pretty neat.

Oh hey, thought I'd let you know that volunteering at the NE Humane Soc. has been awesome. It's fun reading the training logs for the different dogs. I try and take the dogs out that have the most issues with pulling and jumping. Five min into the walk and bam, that dog is mine. Man, it's such a rush. Since I can't have any dogs in my current place, it makes it that much more rewarding.

Anyway, I hope you're managing to stay out of the hospital!
__________________
Quote:
"The first amendment says that congress shall pass no law abridging the freedom of speech. I'm not congress and I'm not passing a law. I'm the guy telling you to shut the **** up and move along."
Blinky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2007, 12:07   #465
G20man32904
Deceased
 
G20man32904's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Melbourne, Fl
Posts: 2,454
Great news Blink!! Dogs on death row seem to really respond well to training. Hmm wonder why?? Anyway, I know the rush and still get it myself from time to time. When you get good students like Pru, you get it back.

Haha, the old match trick, I can't take credit for it. It was taught to me by an older lady that used to do a lot in the show ring. If a dog goes in the ring he goes home, so they make sure they are empty before heading in. Works really well.

No more hospitals for me dood! There are sick people in there!!!
__________________
Did you pet your dog today?
Proud owner of Black rifles and Assault Canines !!!
G20man32904 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2007, 12:59   #466
Blinky
Rocket Surgeon
 
Blinky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Beaver, OR
Posts: 6,856
Send a message via AIM to Blinky Send a message via MSN to Blinky Send a message via Yahoo to Blinky
Quote:
Originally Posted by G20man32904 View Post
Great news Blink!! Dogs on death row seem to really respond well to training. Hmm wonder why?? Anyway, I know the rush and still get it myself from time to time. When you get good students like Pru, you get it back.

Haha, the old match trick, I can't take credit for it. It was taught to me by an older lady that used to do a lot in the show ring. If a dog goes in the ring he goes home, so they make sure they are empty before heading in. Works really well.

No more hospitals for me dood! There are sick people in there!!!
Well, the good thing about the NHS is that it's a low-kill shelter. Dogs that have severe aggression or health issues are the only ones that are put down.

Yeah, I'll have to remember that trick.

No more? That's awesome man!
__________________
Quote:
"The first amendment says that congress shall pass no law abridging the freedom of speech. I'm not congress and I'm not passing a law. I'm the guy telling you to shut the **** up and move along."
Blinky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2007, 16:57   #467
G20man32904
Deceased
 
G20man32904's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Melbourne, Fl
Posts: 2,454
Quote:
No more? That's awesome man!
Well, let me clarify, if ain't life or death, I ain't going!
__________________
Did you pet your dog today?
Proud owner of Black rifles and Assault Canines !!!
G20man32904 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2007, 02:22   #468
Blinky
Rocket Surgeon
 
Blinky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Beaver, OR
Posts: 6,856
Send a message via AIM to Blinky Send a message via MSN to Blinky Send a message via Yahoo to Blinky
Quote:
Originally Posted by G20man32904 View Post
Well, let me clarify, if ain't life or death, I ain't going!
I hear ya brother.
__________________
Quote:
"The first amendment says that congress shall pass no law abridging the freedom of speech. I'm not congress and I'm not passing a law. I'm the guy telling you to shut the **** up and move along."
Blinky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2007, 23:19   #469
Pru
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 101
Two week update: Downstay is up to 20 minutes. Sometimes he gets so bored that he rolls onto his side and dozes during a downstay. I hope that's okay; I think it is. He'll stay with a treat just out of reach as long as he can see me. I'm working on stepping around the corner and having him keep the downstay.

At suppertime, I downstay him when I start the water for his food. Periodically, he gets excited about the upcoming meal & jumps up and spins, but I correct him and re-downstay him (10-15 minutes total). He eats outside. He must stay down when I open the door, until I say 'come'. If he gets up before I say 'come' I close the door and take him back to the downstay location. He's figured it out pretty quickly.

I'm working into the habit of an evening walk. We've had three walks now and he is 75% better on his 'heel'. He's a bit car-shy and wants to put me between him and passing cars (quiet suburban development with sidewalks). Today we saw another dog (with human) across the street; I just kept up with leash & verbal corrections. Also, today, I passed home on our way back, to see if he'd honor my leadership. (I know from other walks that he knows where home is.) He did follow me right past our home, with only a glance.

Haven't yet started on 'yard work' with him (fence running, barking & pottying on lead). Bad time of year for that, and I don't want to start it if I'm not going to stick with it. Haven't had any guests either.

So far, so good, and I feel a lot more...empowered. Thanks for your advice.

I'll continue to post updates periodically
Pru is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2007, 21:15   #470
Blinky
Rocket Surgeon
 
Blinky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Beaver, OR
Posts: 6,856
Send a message via AIM to Blinky Send a message via MSN to Blinky Send a message via Yahoo to Blinky
That's awesome Pru. With the car-shyness, one thing that is very important is that you don't anticipate. If you see a car and begin to tense up, he's going to feel that nervous energy through the leash. Keep your head up and shoulder relaxed and just keep walking.

If you can't stick to doing 'yard work' yet, it's not a huge problem. Right now you're establishing your leadership. 'Yard work' will be much much easier with you in the leader position.

Keep up the good work!
__________________
Quote:
"The first amendment says that congress shall pass no law abridging the freedom of speech. I'm not congress and I'm not passing a law. I'm the guy telling you to shut the **** up and move along."
Blinky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2007, 17:41   #471
G20man32904
Deceased
 
G20man32904's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Melbourne, Fl
Posts: 2,454
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pru View Post
Two week update: Downstay is up to 20 minutes. Sometimes he gets so bored that he rolls onto his side and dozes during a downstay. I hope that's okay; I think it is. He'll stay with a treat just out of reach as long as he can see me. I'm working on stepping around the corner and having him keep the downstay.

At suppertime, I downstay him when I start the water for his food. Periodically, he gets excited about the upcoming meal & jumps up and spins, but I correct him and re-downstay him (10-15 minutes total). He eats outside. He must stay down when I open the door, until I say 'come'. If he gets up before I say 'come' I close the door and take him back to the downstay location. He's figured it out pretty quickly.

I'm working into the habit of an evening walk. We've had three walks now and he is 75% better on his 'heel'. He's a bit car-shy and wants to put me between him and passing cars (quiet suburban development with sidewalks). Today we saw another dog (with human) across the street; I just kept up with leash & verbal corrections. Also, today, I passed home on our way back, to see if he'd honor my leadership. (I know from other walks that he knows where home is.) He did follow me right past our home, with only a glance.

Haven't yet started on 'yard work' with him (fence running, barking & pottying on lead). Bad time of year for that, and I don't want to start it if I'm not going to stick with it. Haven't had any guests either.

So far, so good, and I feel a lot more...empowered. Thanks for your advice.

I'll continue to post updates periodically
Way to go Pru!!
On the downstay, thats fine if he snoozes as long as he remembers he is in a "stay" when he wakes up. You'll find this more and more common with the long down stays. Think of it as a "hibernating" command.
Keep it up, your doing great!
__________________
Did you pet your dog today?
Proud owner of Black rifles and Assault Canines !!!
G20man32904 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2007, 14:31   #472
speck
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 265
Hey, all. I posted a few months ago about my Ridgeback pup. We've now been to two behaviourists and a trainer, and I still can't get the two last little nagging problems taken care of. I'm at a complete loss and about to go to the vet and ask for a run of puppy prozac, so feel free to suggest anything... I hate using drugs. :-P

First off, this is not a fearful dog. She's very confident, loves strangers, is NOT aggressive towards people I've identified as 'good' and are in our house, but is protective of the house and surrounding area. When she's in protection mode, her tail is up, her ruff is up, and she's barking.

The trainer has helped me get a secure handle on her at the dog park. She's completely trustworthy at the dog park now and will come when called even while chasing someone. She'll still dominate the hell out of any dog that looks like he MIGHT need it, but she does it without worrying me or the other dog's owners anymore. Her one bad habit is preferring to chase dogs that are chasing a ball and try to intimidate them out of their toy, but most other dog owners don't mind.. there's just one or two who do.

Now for the problem:

When we encounter a car, bicyclist, jogger, stroller, or a person with another dog when we're outside and she's on leash, she has a reaction that many would mistake as protective aggression but I am very confident is fear. She will start by whining and quickly escalate to lunging and barking at the object with her tail between her legs, ears back, and no ruff. It's range-induced -- if she is on the porch with me, she's fine. If we're down by the mailbox, I'm restraining 80 lbs of lunging Ridgeback with everything I've got... and yes, she is on a head halter. The other trigger seems to be speed. Someone walking? No reaction. Someone walking with a dog? Reaction. Someone driving slowly? Reduced reaction. Someone driving like they stole it? BIG reaction, almost instantly goes from whine to full lunge.

She has this type of reaction in the car, too... not towards other cars, but towards pedestrians and other animals on the side of the road.

If I cover her eyes, the reaction goes away or is limited, but she can still hear the car coming and is still panicked. A calming cap was a disaster... she could see the headlights of the car approaching, she could hear it coming, but she couldn't see the whole thing or where she was going and ended up in a snarling tangle of limbs, leash, and etc. on her back on the ground. (Yes, she was fine with the calming cap and had been acclimated otherwise under the supervision of a behaviourist.)

The behaviourists recommended classical conditioning with positive reinforcement. Basically, feed her her favorite treats any time the fear item is near, and slowly work closer to it. I've been working with her daily out front of the house for the past two months with no change. If we're over her 'line', she'll watch the thing approaching while eating treats from my hand. She'll start rolling her eyes and showing the whites of her eyes. And then she will go straight through the treat she was eating off of to lunge and bark, completely ignoring that there's food present... and then after the fear item has passed, she'll return to the treat, but she'll start eating more ... violently? She normally takes treats very well and is very careful to not nip, but after she's just had a fear reaction she'll nip kind of hard to get to the treat.

It's worth noting that other than lunging and barking with signs of fear, and nipping my hand a little bit, she has NEVER acted like she wants to hurt anyone. Even when I've been restraining her, she's never acted aggressively towards me in order to get away from me. She's never attacked anyone even if she's gotten loose ... heck, if she gets loose when a jogger with a dog is going by, she'll go from barking and lunging to tail wagging, sniffing the other dog's rear, and butting the jogger in the knees until he pets her and then running back to me. I'm just afraid of her getting loose and her running up to a car, sniffing the tailpipe, and then butting it in the grill until it, er, 'pets' her...

I've got a vet appointment for her later this week... if y'all don't have any ideas, then we're going to have to talk about prozac for her just long enough for me to train her around this hurdle.

Last edited by speck; 12-02-2007 at 14:37..
speck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2007, 19:45   #473
G20man32904
Deceased
 
G20man32904's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Melbourne, Fl
Posts: 2,454
Speck,
Sounds like you have done some good work, but here is some more for you. Exercise, exercise, exercise, then take her to an area that will be flooded with both foot and motor traffic. I like to use the grocery store entrance. (If you tell the store manager before starting, I have never had a problem). This is called flooding, and works really, really well.
The fact that she only does it on lead (taught lead I'm sure) tells me that it is more of a "U" thing and less of a "her" thing.
What are you doing while practicing? sitting? standing? What are you asking the dog to do while the distraction is present? Keep her mind busy and the body will follow.

Don't discount meds right away. Try some Benadryl first, after a good workout and that will give you an idea of what may work.

What da ya think Blinky? Did I miss anything?
__________________
Did you pet your dog today?
Proud owner of Black rifles and Assault Canines !!!
G20man32904 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2007, 20:22   #474
speck
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 265
Sounds like a plan -- I can take her to my university campus very easily. She loves being around people, it's the cars and bicycles that she gets all up in arms about.

I'm not sure what I could be doing to cause it, but the trainer's thought was that it's self-reinforcing. She has bad puppy-onset hip dysplasia. My previous tactic was to teach her to 'sit' when we were out for a walk and a car was approaching... and she might've associated the pain of sitting with the approach of a car. And now that she's reacting that way towards the approach of a car, she gets up on her hind legs -- which has got to hurt worse.
speck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2007, 01:01   #475
Blinky
Rocket Surgeon
 
Blinky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Beaver, OR
Posts: 6,856
Send a message via AIM to Blinky Send a message via MSN to Blinky Send a message via Yahoo to Blinky
Quote:
Originally Posted by G20man32904 View Post
Speck,
Sounds like you have done some good work, but here is some more for you. Exercise, exercise, exercise, then take her to an area that will be flooded with both foot and motor traffic. I like to use the grocery store entrance. (If you tell the store manager before starting, I have never had a problem). This is called flooding, and works really, really well.
The fact that she only does it on lead (taught lead I'm sure) tells me that it is more of a "U" thing and less of a "her" thing.
What are you doing while practicing? sitting? standing? What are you asking the dog to do while the distraction is present? Keep her mind busy and the body will follow.

Don't discount meds right away. Try some Benadryl first, after a good workout and that will give you an idea of what may work.

What da ya think Blinky? Did I miss anything?
Yup, when dealing with this situation a nice loooong walk before starting is key. I guess the only think I can really add is not to anticipate anything. Personally, I would ditch the head halter and consider a pinch collar. If she's as wild as it sounds, I'd be concerned about neck damage. The pinch collar will allow for a proper leash correction.

Speck,

In this case the use of treats doesn't sit well with me. Would you give candy to a child that is already hyper? The treats have become a reward for that behavior. That's the thing that a lot of people miss, when you give a treat to a dog you are reinforcing the state of mind the dog is in at that very moment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by speck View Post
Sounds like a plan -- I can take her to my university campus very easily. She loves being around people, it's the cars and bicycles that she gets all up in arms about.

I'm not sure what I could be doing to cause it, but the trainer's thought was that it's self-reinforcing. She has bad puppy-onset hip dysplasia. My previous tactic was to teach her to 'sit' when we were out for a walk and a car was approaching... and she might've associated the pain of sitting with the approach of a car. And now that she's reacting that way towards the approach of a car, she gets up on her hind legs -- which has got to hurt worse.
One thing I would start doing also, is to start approaching what scares her. This is part of the flooding. Again, take her for a nice long walk and then seek out the situations that will trigger a reaction. This may sound a bit counter-intuitive but it's important that you don't anticipate her reaction. She's not walking around thinking about the next car she might see, she's just reacting to the car that she does see. You need to adopt that thought process. At the VERY first sign of her issues, you need to step in. I would correct with the leash to get her attention back on you. You MUST do this at the exact moment she starts. It's very easy to correct a dog a level 1, whimpering. Once you let her get to level 5 and up, it's almost a lost cause at that moment.

With time and patience you can and will help her get past her problems. Good luck man.

edit: With her being in the car, again a nice long walk before hand is key. After that hop in the back seat of the car with her (keep the leash and collar on), with out going anywhere. Just get her used to relaxing in the car. After that I would have someone else drive the car with you in the back seat, relaxed and ready to correct. Again, I can't stress this enough, don't anticipate anything. She'll get it eventually. Just be confident and relaxed and your dog will pick up on that and mirror you.
__________________
Quote:
"The first amendment says that congress shall pass no law abridging the freedom of speech. I'm not congress and I'm not passing a law. I'm the guy telling you to shut the **** up and move along."

Last edited by Blinky; 12-03-2007 at 12:52..
Blinky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2007, 12:33   #476
G20man32904
Deceased
 
G20man32904's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Melbourne, Fl
Posts: 2,454
Quote:
Yup, when dealing with this situation a nice loooong walk before starting is key. I guess the only think I can really add is not to anticipate anything. Personally, I would ditch the head halter and consider a pinch collar. If she's as wild as it sounds, I'd be concerned about neck damage. The pinch collar will allow for a proper leash correction.
Good thinking on the pinch collar. I like it and would certainly introduce it. Make sure it fits nice and snug and high up on the neck. A pinch collar with 2 inches of slack is worthless.
__________________
Did you pet your dog today?
Proud owner of Black rifles and Assault Canines !!!
G20man32904 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2007, 18:25   #477
speck
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 265
Pinch collar? Huh, ok. See, that contradicts *everything* that the two trainers and a behaviourist that I've been to has said... not that I'm questioning you guys, and for the price of a collar will definitely give it a try. What the trainers and behaviourists have said is that with a pinch or prong collar, she would become MORE fearful and aggressive instead of less because she would be getting hurt every time something that she was already expecting pain from would appear.

Like I said, not questioning you -- I guess I'm just trying to resolve what $400 in trainers and other specialists have said with the pinch/prong collar.
speck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2007, 19:14   #478
G20man32904
Deceased
 
G20man32904's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Melbourne, Fl
Posts: 2,454
Pinch collar hurting? Hardly. When you go to the store, try one on, seriously. Unless your into piercings and tats no one will look at you like your totally over the edge. The "points" are very dull and not meant to cause pain. They are to get the dog focused on you and not the unwanted behavior. They are perfect for working extended down stays. Which by the way, is what I would be doing with her during her "distractions", along with the heel command. From there I would re-introduce a super treat to re-inforce the down, stay command. A couple slices of liverwurst from the deli will go a long way. If not, most pet stores now carry freeze dried liver. Dogs go nuts for liver.
Tell me your thoughts speck?
__________________
Did you pet your dog today?
Proud owner of Black rifles and Assault Canines !!!
G20man32904 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2007, 20:45   #479
Blinky
Rocket Surgeon
 
Blinky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Beaver, OR
Posts: 6,856
Send a message via AIM to Blinky Send a message via MSN to Blinky Send a message via Yahoo to Blinky
Quote:
Originally Posted by speck View Post
Pinch collar? Huh, ok. See, that contradicts *everything* that the two trainers and a behaviourist that I've been to has said... not that I'm questioning you guys, and for the price of a collar will definitely give it a try. What the trainers and behaviourists have said is that with a pinch or prong collar, she would become MORE fearful and aggressive instead of less because she would be getting hurt every time something that she was already expecting pain from would appear.

Like I said, not questioning you -- I guess I'm just trying to resolve what $400 in trainers and other specialists have said with the pinch/prong collar.
The reason that pinch collars and "choke" chains have such a bad rep are A: because they look bad and B: beople have no clue on how to use them and end up hurting the animal.

First of all you need to learn the proper correction. A proper correction should be lightning fast with just enough force to *snap* the dog out of it's current state of mind and focus on you. It should be done at the exact moment the dog starts the unwanted behavior. Too soon and the dog will become scared. If done to late, it won't matter how much you correct. The dog will be fixated and nothing will be able to stop it. The object is not to punish the dog or hurt the dog. Just to redirect the dogs focus back to you. You NEVER correct out of anger or frustration. If you feel yourself getting that way end the training session right away.

The second thing you have to do is, make sure that the collar is at the TOP of the neck. Right behind the ears. Most people will get a collar that slips down to the bottom of the neck. Then they wonder why their corrections won't work. That's because the bottom of the neck is the strongest part. By putting the collar at the weakest part of the neck you need to use less force for the dog to get it. This collar placement is also VERY important during walks. Something like 80% of a dogs brain is controlled by it's nose. Keep the nose off of the ground and the dog will focus on you.

You need to make the prong collar a positive thing for the dog. This is where I might employ treats. Don't just use the collar for training. When you get it, and have time to keep an eye on the dog, put it on her. Just NEVER let her out of your sight when she has it on. YOU choose what she associates the collar with. If you believe the collar is a positive thing, the dog will also.

You want her to associate the unwanted behavior with a correction, that's the whole point here isn't it? A prong collar is there to mimic the bite or nip of the alpha on his subordinates. It is there to correct not discipline or punish.

Just remember your actions dictate her reactions. ALWAYS.
__________________
Quote:
"The first amendment says that congress shall pass no law abridging the freedom of speech. I'm not congress and I'm not passing a law. I'm the guy telling you to shut the **** up and move along."

Last edited by Blinky; 12-03-2007 at 20:55..
Blinky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2007, 02:19   #480
speck
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 265
Acquired and used tonight. I need to remove a link, and I should've paid the extra $10 for the kind that clips on instead of going over the head (my baby's got a FAT head it seems), but it's surprisingly effective. We'll see where this takes us... I'm not sure tonight if she was surprised or what.

For those in the know, how should I be walking her? Right now as we're walking, when she's beside me the top of her head is at my waist level. So if I'm to hold the chain UP at all to keep the prong collar in place on her neck right behind her skull, my hand's at an uncomfortable angle. I don't want to walk her too far out of the heel position because at that point the chain is straight back as opposed to straight up. Suggestions?
speck is offline   Reply With Quote

 
  
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 14:01.




Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 972
239 Members
733 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,672
Aug 11, 2014 at 2:31