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Old 12-03-2007, 11:33   #476
G20man32904
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Yup, when dealing with this situation a nice loooong walk before starting is key. I guess the only think I can really add is not to anticipate anything. Personally, I would ditch the head halter and consider a pinch collar. If she's as wild as it sounds, I'd be concerned about neck damage. The pinch collar will allow for a proper leash correction.
Good thinking on the pinch collar. I like it and would certainly introduce it. Make sure it fits nice and snug and high up on the neck. A pinch collar with 2 inches of slack is worthless.
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Old 12-03-2007, 17:25   #477
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Pinch collar? Huh, ok. See, that contradicts *everything* that the two trainers and a behaviourist that I've been to has said... not that I'm questioning you guys, and for the price of a collar will definitely give it a try. What the trainers and behaviourists have said is that with a pinch or prong collar, she would become MORE fearful and aggressive instead of less because she would be getting hurt every time something that she was already expecting pain from would appear.

Like I said, not questioning you -- I guess I'm just trying to resolve what $400 in trainers and other specialists have said with the pinch/prong collar.
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Old 12-03-2007, 18:14   #478
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Pinch collar hurting? Hardly. When you go to the store, try one on, seriously. Unless your into piercings and tats no one will look at you like your totally over the edge. The "points" are very dull and not meant to cause pain. They are to get the dog focused on you and not the unwanted behavior. They are perfect for working extended down stays. Which by the way, is what I would be doing with her during her "distractions", along with the heel command. From there I would re-introduce a super treat to re-inforce the down, stay command. A couple slices of liverwurst from the deli will go a long way. If not, most pet stores now carry freeze dried liver. Dogs go nuts for liver.
Tell me your thoughts speck?
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Old 12-03-2007, 19:45   #479
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Pinch collar? Huh, ok. See, that contradicts *everything* that the two trainers and a behaviourist that I've been to has said... not that I'm questioning you guys, and for the price of a collar will definitely give it a try. What the trainers and behaviourists have said is that with a pinch or prong collar, she would become MORE fearful and aggressive instead of less because she would be getting hurt every time something that she was already expecting pain from would appear.

Like I said, not questioning you -- I guess I'm just trying to resolve what $400 in trainers and other specialists have said with the pinch/prong collar.
The reason that pinch collars and "choke" chains have such a bad rep are A: because they look bad and B: beople have no clue on how to use them and end up hurting the animal.

First of all you need to learn the proper correction. A proper correction should be lightning fast with just enough force to *snap* the dog out of it's current state of mind and focus on you. It should be done at the exact moment the dog starts the unwanted behavior. Too soon and the dog will become scared. If done to late, it won't matter how much you correct. The dog will be fixated and nothing will be able to stop it. The object is not to punish the dog or hurt the dog. Just to redirect the dogs focus back to you. You NEVER correct out of anger or frustration. If you feel yourself getting that way end the training session right away.

The second thing you have to do is, make sure that the collar is at the TOP of the neck. Right behind the ears. Most people will get a collar that slips down to the bottom of the neck. Then they wonder why their corrections won't work. That's because the bottom of the neck is the strongest part. By putting the collar at the weakest part of the neck you need to use less force for the dog to get it. This collar placement is also VERY important during walks. Something like 80% of a dogs brain is controlled by it's nose. Keep the nose off of the ground and the dog will focus on you.

You need to make the prong collar a positive thing for the dog. This is where I might employ treats. Don't just use the collar for training. When you get it, and have time to keep an eye on the dog, put it on her. Just NEVER let her out of your sight when she has it on. YOU choose what she associates the collar with. If you believe the collar is a positive thing, the dog will also.

You want her to associate the unwanted behavior with a correction, that's the whole point here isn't it? A prong collar is there to mimic the bite or nip of the alpha on his subordinates. It is there to correct not discipline or punish.

Just remember your actions dictate her reactions. ALWAYS.
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Old 12-08-2007, 01:19   #480
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Acquired and used tonight. I need to remove a link, and I should've paid the extra $10 for the kind that clips on instead of going over the head (my baby's got a FAT head it seems), but it's surprisingly effective. We'll see where this takes us... I'm not sure tonight if she was surprised or what.

For those in the know, how should I be walking her? Right now as we're walking, when she's beside me the top of her head is at my waist level. So if I'm to hold the chain UP at all to keep the prong collar in place on her neck right behind her skull, my hand's at an uncomfortable angle. I don't want to walk her too far out of the heel position because at that point the chain is straight back as opposed to straight up. Suggestions?
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Old 12-08-2007, 08:48   #481
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Acquired and used tonight. I need to remove a link, and I should've paid the extra $10 for the kind that clips on instead of going over the head (my baby's got a FAT head it seems), but it's surprisingly effective. We'll see where this takes us... I'm not sure tonight if she was surprised or what.

For those in the know, how should I be walking her? Right now as we're walking, when she's beside me the top of her head is at my waist level. So if I'm to hold the chain UP at all to keep the prong collar in place on her neck right behind her skull, my hand's at an uncomfortable angle. I don't want to walk her too far out of the heel position because at that point the chain is straight back as opposed to straight up. Suggestions?
I would return that collar and get the one that clips on. I can't stress proper fit enough.

Her head should be right inline with your body, or just slightly behind it. Once you get a properly fitting collar a lot of it will take care if it self. When you first get out of the house, take a little bit of time to position yourself with her.

Take a look at these pictures:
Woof Memorial Critter's Corner
Woof Memorial Critter's Corner
Besides the proper position of the dog, also talk notice of the little bit of slack in the leash and the collar placement. If that dog tries to bolt out ahead, it almost becomes a self correction. If the dog tries to lower it's head, a swift upward correction will get the job done. Also notice her body language, head up, looking forward, shoulders relaxed and arm at her side. Again, you walk the way you want your dog to walk. Most people I see walking their dogs are chatting away on their cell phones, oblivious to the world around them...while their dog is trying to pull their arm out of the socket. Gee, I wonder why? It's only after your dog figures out what you want during the walk that you can do other things. With some dogs I can get that accomplished in 5-10min, others it may take me a half hour.

Mike, did I miss anything?
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Old 12-09-2007, 15:28   #482
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Got any more pictures of the blonde gal? :D

How much should I be correcting her when she gets too far ahead of me? She kind of tests to see where her 'limit' is as far as pulling against the collar... I don't want to be ham handed and hurt her, but she's smart and she likes walking fine lines this one.
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Old 12-09-2007, 17:28   #483
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How much should I be correcting her when she gets too far ahead of me? She kind of tests to see where her 'limit' is as far as pulling against the collar... I don't want to be ham handed and hurt her, but she's smart and she likes walking fine lines this one.
This is kind of like "enough bullets to stop the threat."

Same thing applies here. Enough pop to stop the pulling. Happy walking.
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Old 12-09-2007, 17:32   #484
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Got any more pictures of the blonde gal? :D

How much should I be correcting her when she gets too far ahead of me? She kind of tests to see where her 'limit' is as far as pulling against the collar... I don't want to be ham handed and hurt her, but she's smart and she likes walking fine lines this one.
hahaha...I just found those pictures on line..

All your corrections should be uniform. Unless were getting to the realm of severe aggression, on one act should have a more severe correction than another. Remember, the point of a correction is the return the dogs focus to you, not to punish. Keeping that in mind it's really the dog that is going to dictate the correction. Some dogs need a very light correction, some will need a correction with a little more snap to it. It's up to you to watch your dog and figure that out.

If she keeps bolting out in front of you, a great tactic is to do a 180 and continue walking and don't stop. It will result in a correction just because you two are heading in different directions. This is a great way to teach the dog to pay attention to you. When working with a dog that is almost there I'll do that in the middle of the walk. Just do a 180, take enough steps for the dog to get back in line with you and then do another 180 and continue in the direction you were heading.
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Old 12-09-2007, 20:24   #485
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It's not so much bolting ... the bolting I can control. It's the gentle sneaking as we're walking that I have a hard time with. She'll be walking perfectly and all of a sudden before I notice it, she's eeeeeaaaassssseeeeddddd up until you hear the first "sni-snikt!" of the collar tightening, and then she'll walk there with the collar just a bit tense. If I correct her, she'll be hit that first limit of the chain a second later. It's literally a difference of millimeters, and I can't keep my arm in the right position all the time. I'm starting to think about walking with her leash slung over my shoulder and neck.

I need to give this dog back and get one with better ergonomics.
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Old 12-13-2007, 16:53   #486
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Hey guys mind if I jump in?
Blinky, nice pics dewd! We like the blonde MILFS around here but she has the dog on the wrong side!!! Maybe she is in England or something?

Speck, the general sneaking up is her way of finding boundaries. I like to use the dogs head, if it goes past my knee, I snap a 180 u–turn to the right (if dog is on left). Every time she goes in front if even by a little snap that u-turn. That will get her focused on you and not where you are going.

I just went back and read the last couple posts speck and this is what I got for you. Corrections vary in intensity and must be equaled by the same amount of praise. Walk with the dog on your left and the leash slung over your right shoulder and the handle should be around you neck, middle of back, depending on fit. This way you can keep it slack all the time. When she pulls just a little, whip that u-turn, then giver her a gradual turn (and command) back in the first given direction. She will soon learn, there are different types of walks and not all of all them are for her.

Thanks Blinky and Platz for watching the store, I had to go entertain some nurses for awhile.
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Old 12-13-2007, 17:51   #487
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Pinch collar? Huh, ok. See, that contradicts *everything* that the two trainers and a behaviourist that I've been to has said... not that I'm questioning you guys, and for the price of a collar will definitely give it a try. What the trainers and behaviourists have said is that with a pinch or prong collar, she would become MORE fearful and aggressive instead of less because she would be getting hurt every time something that she was already expecting pain from would appear.
There seem to be a lot of "new age'y" trainers out there these days who are recommending things like gentle leaders, halti's, flat buckle collars only, and other various contraptions. In my experience, those that proclaim that a prong collar will make your dog aggressive are the same people who believe kids who are spanked will grow up to be criminals. Take that for whatever you think it's worth. 'Tis just my opinion.

There are different ways of training dogs. Not one way works for all dogs and all people. However, more often than not, if you put a properly fitted prong collar on a dog and give the owner some basic (at the least) instructions, they will be successful to the extent that they can now walk their dog safely. Many people do not WANT to walk their pets because the dogs are so terrible. Who wants to have sore shoulders after only a block? Not much fun for either owner or dog. Even fair weather walkers can have a pleasant walk if they give a few initial corrections on a prong at the beginning of the walk.

I have never experienced anything more frustrating than training retrievers for a local service dog agency with gentle leaders. You can not correct the dog with a GL, and they absolutely do not self correct as they claim. I had to completely alter my training (in a most ridiculous fashion) to even manage to get the dogs heeling with a GL. All of the dogs did eventually grasp the concept, but the minute the GL was taken off any of those dogs, they went right back to pulling. The method worked, but it took a ridiculous amount of time & the dogs were not walking on enough of a loose leash for my taste. I will never, ever, recommend them. I would rather train in a flat buckle collar than a GL.

Here's why I like prongs:
- They're easy to use, bottom line. 99% of dogs will not pull through a prong correction. Some respond quicker than others, but I've not yet met one who doesn't respond "at all." I will leave that 1% out there as I'm sure that dog does exist....somewhere.
- You don't have to get after your dog for miles on end constantly correcting him. A few good pops, some reminders if necessary, and he'll get the point quickly to leave some slack in the line. If he's inching forward, he's not getting a stern enough pop. Psychologically, dogs IME respond better if you get after them early on with a strict pop. If you start low and increase the intensity of the correction, the dogs do not respond as well. I know it sounds like it would make more sense, but it generally is not an effective way to train. They will constantly be pushing the limit to determine how far you'll let them get away with it. If you knock that attitude off right at the beginning, you'll both be in for a more relaxing walk.
- Many people think the prongs look mid-evil, are horrible/cruel training devices, will puncture a dogs neck, etc...this is all untrue. Convince that dog owner to try a prong for just ONE lap around a petstore, and I guarantee you they will still be using it in the checkout line as they clerk leans over the counter to scan it, because now they don't want to take it off their dog.

They don't look nice, I'll give you that. But they are humane, and they are effective. They last indefinitely as well if you don't get the cheap ones.
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Old 12-13-2007, 20:07   #488
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Hey guys mind if I jump in?
Blinky, nice pics dewd! We like the blonde MILFS around here but she has the dog on the wrong side!!! Maybe she is in England or something?

Thanks Blinky and Platz for watching the store, I had to go entertain some nurses for awhile.
Bah, my job is to teach people what their dog needs during a walk. I leave the side they walk on up to the trainers.

dude, not cool, you gotta let me know when your gonna do that crap. I was almost gonna call you.
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Old 12-13-2007, 23:25   #489
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As a nurse, but not your nurse, may I say "thank you for the entertainment!" Now, knock it off!

Tonight is the fourth night in a row that I've walked my little dude. We just have the flat buckle collar, but he's done very well on the 6 ft leash. I started with it behind my back and over my shoulder. But this week, he's been really good. Tonight I used the retractable lead - not to let him roam!!! But because - reeled in - it's just the right length for a good 'heel'. Tonight I worked on using verbal correction without the tug on the lead, and he did pretty well. He's good at responding to my voice if he's lagging behind, but once in a while, he'll pull ahead of me, then he still needs a tug.

He continues to be car-shy. My attitude - and I hope you'll tell me it's correct - is that cars are MY job to worry about. He needs to trust me to tell him if a car is the problem, otherwise he should ignore cars and pay attention to me.

One question: I took along some small, soft treats on our walks, but found that he either doesn't want them, or vomits a few minutes later if he eats them. Is that normal? Like me trying to eat a steak during a marathon?

Oh, and my dog heels on the LEFT! Which leaves my right hand free to draw my G19, should the need arise! :D
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Old 12-14-2007, 08:30   #490
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I've asked a number of questions in this thread about my male Maltese, and here is another one.

I've mentioned many time that he is a very good "alert" dog. He will bark if he hears a car door shut in the driveway, if he hears someone at the door, if he hears an unusual sound in the house, even if he sees a car driving by the house at a slower than normal speed.

I appreciate this, but I would like to be able to control it. For example, if someone comes to the door and it is an expected visitor, I would like him to shut up when I tell him to, not just keep barking until I get to the door, let them in, and they enter. However, I feel like by telling him "NO" and making him stop he thinks he should not bark at all when someone is at the door.

Basically, how can I teach him to stop barking when I tell him to without him thinking I am telling him not to bark at all when he hears a noise?
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Old 12-14-2007, 11:54   #491
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As a nurse, but not your nurse, may I say "thank you for the entertainment!" Now, knock it off!
Hey they were really cute, what can I say? It's not everyday they see a case like mine and they were all drooling over it and asking me questions. I felt like a rock star.

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He continues to be car-shy. My attitude - and I hope you'll tell me it's correct - is that cars are MY job to worry about. He needs to trust me to tell him if a car is the problem, otherwise he should ignore cars and pay attention to me.
Yep, he should always look to you for a reaction, He won't always do it but he should. Think of him as your 1st lieutenant in charge of security. He'll always be awaiting orders, but if they are slow coming, he will act on his own.

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One question: I took along some small, soft treats on our walks, but found that he either doesn't want them, or vomits a few minutes later if he eats them. Is that normal? Like me trying to eat a steak during a marathon?
Not normal, keep the treats down to maybe a 1/4 of an mm size.

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Oh, and my dog heels on the LEFT! Which leaves my right hand free to draw my G19, should the need arise! :D
That's my kinda lady right there!!!!
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Old 12-14-2007, 12:00   #492
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I've asked a number of questions in this thread about my male Maltese, and here is another one.

I've mentioned many time that he is a very good "alert" dog. He will bark if he hears a car door shut in the driveway, if he hears someone at the door, if he hears an unusual sound in the house, even if he sees a car driving by the house at a slower than normal speed.

I appreciate this, but I would like to be able to control it. For example, if someone comes to the door and it is an expected visitor, I would like him to shut up when I tell him to, not just keep barking until I get to the door, let them in, and they enter. However, I feel like by telling him "NO" and making him stop he thinks he should not bark at all when someone is at the door.

Basically, how can I teach him to stop barking when I tell him to without him thinking I am telling him not to bark at all when he hears a noise?
Ok, this will take some planning, but here goes.
Invite some folks over, leash him up before he alerts, PRAISE him for alerting and see who it is. Once you make the determination safe or not safe, open the door (safe duh) and feed him a small moist favorite treat (peanut butter and small liver treats work really well. Give him a command such as "OUT!!" before rewarding. Once he "outs" reward with peanut butter. I have yet to see a dog who can bark and lick peanut butter at the same time.
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Old 12-14-2007, 12:27   #493
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gah..I love going into Petsmart and I hate it too. Last night I was in there to pick up stuff for my cat and I saw two owners there that worried me. One lady had a beautiful Shep. mix with a pinch collar that was about two sizes too big. It was the second one that really broke my heart though. It was an older gentleman that had a heeler type dog. The poor thing was scared of everything in that place. The guy didn't stop though, just kept truckin' right along. I almost said something.
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Old 12-14-2007, 12:33   #494
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Always fun when obviously incompetent owners let their dogs run up to yours on a flexi lead (fully extended of course) and don't understand when you turn and walk away. I allow socialization only with dogs and owners that appear responsible.

It is amazing how offended people get when you don't let your dog "play" with theirs. I take mine there for socialization with people and training around different distractions, and for the shopping experience. Not for a playdate with dogs who only get out for the once every other month trip to the petstore...!
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Old 12-19-2007, 05:33   #495
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Hey, just a quick update.

First off, the prong collar is a pretty nice tool. I like it so far. It gets an instant response that can't be overpowered, which is something that is missing with the Gentle Leader.

The one place where I'm straying away from your teachings is the car thing -- we're continuing, and actually making progress again with the positive training. And I finally figured out what caused it. She escaped about six months ago briefly when the power co's meter reader neglected to lock the back gate securely behind him and I didn't check it before I let her out. What she seems to be scared of is that the car will approach her and then do something scary -- the one time she's heard a horn since, I think, she almost had a seizure.

'Overloading' just got her so spun up that she was frothing at the mouth... she was beyond the point of being able to be more than hurt/exhausted without understanding why.

On the other hand, when I switched to sitting in the grass and making her lay down next to me (prong collar on, of course) she learned that if she jumped and ran at the car she'd get hurt, but if she stayed next to me and watched me she'd get a treat. Over the past four days, we've gone from not being able to be within twenty feet of a roadway with cars going by to being able to be within five feet of the road. I'm moving slowly because I don't want her to freak out. Her reaction before: BARK BARK! LUNGE! BARK! ... her reaction now: "Dad, where's my treat?" The key to this too was ignoring the trainer's advice to treat whenever she's doing something I like (aka sitting or laying down) and just treat when the car goes by. I basically rustle in the bag to let her know she's going to get something while the car's going by, and after the car goes, hand her the treat.

The prong collar was one bit of it because the gentle leader didn't provide any reason for her NOT to lunge at something she's scared of, but the positive reinforcement is *definitely* seeming to produce a more workable result in this scenario where she has this intense fear.

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Old 12-19-2007, 06:07   #496
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That's great news speck! The best thing about what you're doing, is that you are coming up with a workable solution on your own, tailored to your own dog. Just make sure that with that treat, comes A LOT of praise. Pretty soon you'll be able to leave the treats at home and just go with the praise. Keep it up man!!!!
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Old 12-19-2007, 11:05   #497
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Nice work Speck!
Keep working what works for you and stop paying trainers, me and Blinky got ya covered.
ps
Some video work of this could really help other people if you can arrange it.
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Old 12-19-2007, 12:29   #498
Blinky
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G20man32904 View Post
Nice work Speck!
Keep working what works for you and stop paying trainers, me and Blinky got ya covered.
ps
Some video work of this could really help other people if you can arrange it.
Mike
OoooOOR...he could pay us...
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"The first amendment says that congress shall pass no law abridging the freedom of speech. I'm not congress and I'm not passing a law. I'm the guy telling you to shut the **** up and move along."
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Old 12-19-2007, 16:15   #499
G20man32904
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Originally Posted by Blinky View Post
OoooOOR...he could pay us...
I would happily accept donations of 10mm brass, bullets, .308 ammo or cash.
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Old 01-24-2008, 07:00   #500
Zonny
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How can I break my two YO Schnauzer from getting tissue out of the trash?

Other than that and the occasional sock/ shoe theft into the backyard, she's a good girl.

She even does it when I'm home. I'll walk into a bathroom to find torn up tissue. If the trash is empty, she will go after the roll. She knows it's bad because she has guilt written all over her face when she's done it.
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