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Old 10-18-2005, 19:51   #221
mobocracy
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Quote:
Originally posted by philkryder
What is the "downside" of the current design that rethinking might change?

Good ammo, that is within spec works JUST FINE in millions of Glocks everyday....

9x19 at Nato levels is relatively high pressure.

As was pointed out in one of the very early posts in this thread, the "loose support" in the chamber allows BRASS failure as a "safety valve" rather than catastrophic chamber or barrel failure. It does more than just ensure reliable feeding.

The loose fit is "a good thing" (tm)...
Can you post some references to 9x19 NATO ammo pressure specs and how they differ from SAAMI specs for 9x19? I have heard apocryphal stories of 9x19 NATO "submachine gun" ammo, but I'm unaware of a NATO 9x19 pressure specification that exceeds 9x19 SAAMI specifications. I can find SAAMI specs for 9x19 "+P" loads, too, or is your point that NATO 9x19 is loaded to what's usually referred to as the SAAMI-recognized +P pressure spec?

As far as the idea that the loose chamber allows for a "safety valve", that would make sense if the overpressure had someplace to go and didn't blow out magazines and all the other secondary damage seen in KBs.

If fully supporting the chamber in a barrel that "needs" a pressure release as you describe results in catestrophic barrel failures, then the barrel is insufficient in some aspect of its design (wall thickness, metallurgy, etc).
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Old 10-18-2005, 20:40   #222
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Quote:
Originally posted by philkryder
What is the "downside" of the current design that rethinking might change?

Good ammo, that is within spec works JUST FINE in millions of Glocks everyday....

9x19 at Nato levels is relatively high pressure.

As was pointed out in one of the very early posts in this thread, the "loose support" in the chamber allows BRASS failure as a "safety valve" rather than catastrophic chamber or barrel failure. It does more than just ensure reliable feeding.

The loose fit is "a good thing" (tm)...
I have a pile of .40 brass that a friend gave me from his shooting range and almost "all" of the brass shot from a glock .40 has the bulge. My glock's factory barrel would bulge the case even with winchester value pack ammo which is not a hot round. Now, I reload and shoot factory ammo for the 38/357, the 44 and 45acp and 45 colt. One should always look at your brass and primers for signs of stress. This bulge is not a good thing! Especially with such mildly loaded ammo as the winchester white box. I have never heard of a pistol having a safety valve to self destruct such as you described. Most of the LEO and civilians that are purchasing Glock pistols do not shoot ammo that requires this overly large chamber. I have heard that glock's ammo feeding reliability is increased with the large unsupported area in the 6'oclock position. My ammo feeding so far has been 100% with a Storm Lake aftermarket barrel with much more case support and a slightly differently angled feed ramp. So the ammo feeding reasoning is just not true. That is a design problem that can be fixed. My Storm Lake aftermarket barrel has a tighter chamber and I have never had a failure to chamber issue. Never. Also,the difference in the case support is very apparent. MY aftermarket barrel never bulges the case. "Never!" I have shot 200 gr double tab ammo and the cases looked better than the winchester white box brass from a factory barrel. I have heard chatter that Glock is fixing the case support issue at the 6'oclock position on some of the newer guns. Check out the barrels on the new .357sig. I still think glock's are great guns,98% perfect! It is just their barrels in the larger calibers that need some adjustments. Then again, all good guns hang around and get improved over time. At the present,I find it easier to just buy an aftermarket barrel and be happy.
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Old 10-19-2005, 00:31   #223
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Quote:
Originally posted by jbremount
I have a pile of .40 brass that a friend gave me from his shooting range and almost "all" of the brass shot from a glock .40 has the bulge.

.... be happy.
You should do whatever you feel you need to do to "be happy."

But, I've never seen the downside of bulged brass.

If you only fire it once - as Glock recommends you use new ammo - then it is a non-issue.

If you fire reloads, then you already know the risks and should take whatever precautions you feel you need to accept responsibility for your own actions.

My point was that the design is not at fault when following the manufacturers recommendations.

Phil
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Old 10-19-2005, 00:34   #224
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Quote:
Originally posted by mobocracy
Can you post some references to 9x19 NATO ammo pressure specs and how they differ from SAAMI specs for 9x19? I have heard apocryphal stories of 9x19 NATO "submachine gun" ammo, but I'm unaware of a NATO 9x19 pressure specification that exceeds 9x19 SAAMI specifications. I can find SAAMI specs for 9x19 "+P" loads, too, or is your point that NATO 9x19 is loaded to what's usually referred to as the SAAMI-recognized +P pressure spec?

As far as the idea that the loose chamber allows for a "safety valve", that would make sense if the overpressure had someplace to go and didn't blow out magazines and all the other secondary damage seen in KBs.

If fully supporting the chamber in a barrel that "needs" a pressure release as you describe results in catestrophic barrel failures, then the barrel is insufficient in some aspect of its design (wall thickness, metallurgy, etc).
Those things such as blown out magazines are much less a problem than blown chambers.

As for Nato and plus p pressures, my point was that they are not significantly less than the other calibers 10, 40, 357, that were mentioned in the earlier post.

Phil
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Old 10-19-2005, 19:00   #225
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Quote:
Originally posted by jbremount
.... Think.

.why are the successful guys who have lived and breathe barrel manufacturing for years or decades in a compeitive market thinking a certain way?
Well, I thought for a bit and here is what I came up with.

After market barrel manufacturers sell barrels that are different than the factory barrels.

If they were the SAME, no one would buy them.
So they must make them different to attract buyers.
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Old 10-20-2005, 17:23   #226
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Quote:
Originally posted by philkryder
Well, I thought for a bit and here is what I came up with.

After market barrel manufacturers sell barrels that are different than the factory barrels.

If they were the SAME, no one would buy them.
So they must make them different to attract buyers.
The implication is that KKM/Jarvis/Barsto/etc barrels with tighter chambers, more case support and button rifling are only like that because it makes them different than the factory barrel, and not because those specific features have meaningful benefits.

That's a ludicrous argument.
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Old 10-20-2005, 19:57   #227
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Quote:
Originally posted by mobocracy
The implication is that KKM/Jarvis/Barsto/etc barrels with tighter chambers, more case support and button rifling are only like that because it makes them different than the factory barrel, and not because those specific features have meaningful benefits.

That's a ludicrous argument.

Perhaps you think it is ludicrous -
but
?would you buy them if they were the same as factory OEM?

The secondary manufacturers must differentiate their products to have a market.

But that differentiation doesn't make them "better" or somehow "more optimal".

Search the posts to see how many of us successfully shoot many reloads - including lead - from factory barrels...


I'm sure that if Glock were to switch to tight cut or button rifled barrels from the factory, that there would arise a secondary manufacture with "loose - combat spec polygonal rifled barrels" for maximum reliabilty and velocity...

That's one of the beauties of capitalism and being free to choose.
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Old 10-20-2005, 21:03   #228
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Quote:
Originally posted by mobocracy
..., then the barrel is insufficient in some aspect of its design (wall thickness, metallurgy, etc).
Not necessarily -

The safety valve need only come into effect with ammo BEYOND spec.
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Old 10-20-2005, 21:33   #229
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Quote:
Originally posted by philkryder
Perhaps you think it is ludicrous -
but
?would you buy them if they were the same as factory OEM?

The secondary manufacturers must differentiate their products to have a market.

But that differentiation doesn't make them "better" or somehow "more optimal".
I think the KKM barrel I have in my Glock 29 is "better" and "more optimal" than the factory barrel. It groups a hell of a lot tighter than my stock barrel and my fired cases are far less expanded than they are out of my stock barrel.

Fired cases from my S&W 1066 and 1006 have a lot of slop in my stock barrel, but have little or none in the KKM. Fired cases from my stock barrel are so expanded that they stick in my 1066 and 1006 chamber to the point of needing to knock them out with a brass rod, KKM fired cases do not.

I call this actual differentiation demonstrating a better product and not just market differentiation.
Quote:
Search the posts to see how many of us successfully shoot many reloads - including lead - from factory barrels...
I don't doubt that some people shoot lead reloads in their stock barrels, but most everyone I've talked to who shoots 10mm reloads considered an aftermarket barrel a requirement.
Quote:
I'm sure that if Glock were to switch to tight cut or button rifled barrels from the factory, that there would arise a secondary manufacture with "loose - combat spec polygonal rifled barrels" for maximum reliabilty and velocity...
If you think that was the case, why are there no barrels advertised like this for other guns that don't ship with loose, unsupported chambers? For example, I've never seen a secondary market for Kimber barrels offering loose unsuppported chambers. Could it be it's a solution looking for a problem?
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Old 10-21-2005, 07:18   #230
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Quote:
Originally posted by philkryder
Not necessarily -

The safety valve need only come into effect with ammo BEYOND spec.

You have got to be joking with this safety valve theory!

Were did you read that in Glock's literature or "any" literature?
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Old 10-21-2005, 07:51   #231
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Quote:
Originally posted by philkryder

Search the posts to see how many of us successfully shoot many reloads - including lead - from factory barrels...

(I too have shot lead through glock factory barrels but the aftermarket barrels makers give you barrels with rifling that shoot lead bullets better.)


I'm sure that if Glock were to switch to tight cut or button rifled barrels from the factory, that there would arise a secondary manufacture with "loose - combat spec polygonal rifled barrels" for maximum reliabilty and velocity...

(If Glock were to swith, you could not "give" the current barrels away! No one manufactures loose chambered,polygonal rifeled barrels for pistols and plans to become a competive barrel manufacter in today's market.)

That's one of the beauties of capitalism and being free to choose. [/B]
(One of the beauties of capitalism and the freedom to choose is that the market dictates success, not company politics. That is why aftermarket barrels are selling. They offer a better product. I put a Clark barrel in my 1911 back in 1992 because the aftermarket barrel offers a match chamber and better lockup than the factory colt barrel. Aftermarket barrels that are better than a gun company's factory barrels are nothing new. Some gun manufacturer are giving you a decent factory barrel and some are not. That's one of the main reasons the market for aftermarket barrels is thriving.)
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Old 10-22-2005, 17:24   #232
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I'm a Glock newbie and I'm getting a headache already with the KB issue. Please, I have one question: I just purchased a NIB G19. I plan to shoot only factory-made FMJ and JHP through it, as repeatedly recommended in this threat. That is, no reloads. I bought the G19 from a respected licensed dealer at a Miami Gun Show a week ago. I haven't shot the gun yet. A lady named Wilma is blocking my access to the range this weekend, but I digress. At the gun show I also bought 200 rounds of FMJ 9mmP from a Georgia Arms distributor at the same show. The bags are marked "factory loaded," and they look it. I also plan to shoot Remington, Federal, and Winchester rounds through it. Now to my question: are these good safe rounds that the Glock is designed to shoot? Or should I squint a lot when I shoot the
gun? ;g This is my only Glock. I do not shoot 40 or 357 sig. ;g
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Old 10-22-2005, 18:20   #233
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Quote:
Originally posted by Babysinister
I'm a Glock newbie and I'm getting a headache already with the KB issue. Please, I have one question: I just purchased a NIB G19. I plan to shoot only factory-made FMJ and JHP through it, as repeatedly recommended in this threat. That is, no reloads. I bought the G19 from a respected licensed dealer at a Miami Gun Show a week ago. I haven't shot the gun yet. A lady named Wilma is blocking my access to the range this weekend, but I digress. At the gun show I also bought 200 rounds of FMJ 9mmP from a Georgia Arms distributor at the same show. The bags are marked "factory loaded," and they look it. I also plan to shoot Remington, Federal, and Winchester rounds through it. Now to my question: are these good safe rounds that the Glock is designed to shoot? Or should I squint a lot when I shoot the
gun? ;g This is my only Glock. I do not shoot 40 or 357 sig. ;g
Yes, shoot and enjoy, if you are shooting quality ammo from a place like georgia arms, or factory loaded stuff you will likely never have any kind of problem, I shoot only my reloads, no factory, more than I can keep track of, in the hundreds of thousands and have only had a couple of minor problems, this stuff is more tempest in a teacup than anything, shoot, enjoy, and forget about this thread.
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Old 10-23-2005, 02:33   #234
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Quote:
Originally posted by Babysinister
I'm a Glock newbie and I'm getting a headache already with the KB issue. Please, I have one question: I just purchased a NIB G19. I plan to shoot only factory-made FMJ and JHP through it, as repeatedly recommended in this threat. That is, no reloads. I bought the G19 from a respected licensed dealer at a Miami Gun Show a week ago. I haven't shot the gun yet. A lady named Wilma is blocking my access to the range this weekend, but I digress. At the gun show I also bought 200 rounds of FMJ 9mmP from a Georgia Arms distributor at the same show. The bags are marked "factory loaded," and they look it. I also plan to shoot Remington, Federal, and Winchester rounds through it. Now to my question: are these good safe rounds that the Glock is designed to shoot? Or should I squint a lot when I shoot the
gun? ;g This is my only Glock. I do not shoot 40 or 357 sig. ;g
You are more likely to be hit by lightning while shooting the G-19 than to have it kB. And I'm not being facetious!
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Old 10-23-2005, 06:14   #235
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Quote:
Originally posted by Glock30fan
You are more likely to be hit by lightning while shooting the G-19 than to have it kB. And I'm not being facetious!
Actually, I've been hit by secondary lightning -- in April, 1994, in West Kendall, and survived. Since then, the natives fear me. But, yes, I was not firing a G19 at the time. With Wilma coming to Miami, now I have something to look forward to. Thanks for the responses. They are most becalming.
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Old 10-23-2005, 06:23   #236
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Quote:
Originally posted by Babysinister
I'm a Glock newbie and I'm getting a headache already with the KB issue. Please, I have one question: I just purchased a NIB G19. I plan to shoot only factory-made FMJ and JHP through it, as repeatedly recommended in this threat. That is, no reloads. I bought the G19 from a respected licensed dealer at a Miami Gun Show a week ago. I haven't shot the gun yet. A lady named Wilma is blocking my access to the range this weekend, but I digress. At the gun show I also bought 200 rounds of FMJ 9mmP from a Georgia Arms distributor at the same show. The bags are marked "factory loaded," and they look it. I also plan to shoot Remington, Federal, and Winchester rounds through it. Now to my question: are these good safe rounds that the Glock is designed to shoot? Or should I squint a lot when I shoot the
gun? ;g This is my only Glock. I do not shoot 40 or 357 sig. ;g

Glocks in 9mm are ok, you will probably never have a kb.
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Old 10-25-2005, 17:04   #237
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I'm always scared to buy those corbon .40 bullets for my Glock 27. They are loaded up to do 1900fps. I just stay away from all those high powered rounds, scared of fragging my pistol..

The strongest ammo limit for me is stuff like Federal Hydra-shock. They have 1190fps, JHP.
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Old 10-26-2005, 02:56   #238
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i've fired around a hundred rounds of corbon thru my g22 w/o any problems whatsoever, well......except for the wicked recoil;f
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Old 10-28-2005, 11:51   #239
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Quote:
Originally posted by KerrtMoremin
AUL GOLCKS BLOE UHPˇˇ
Jsut assck Deen Spier. The krangcky oaled farght... >;[
After I managed to put a stop from my helpless laughter after reading this post, I think I've identified this character. Except for the 'do he's wearing, he looks just like one of the musicians who were ordered to play their string instruments to cover up the cries of pain while Tuco is getting a beating inside the command post in The Good the Bad and the Ugly. This is the guy who finally stops playing and looks pitifully at the brutal guard, who commands him to continue playing. Congrats, that was the best acting in the picture after Eli Wallach's Tuco.

It's a long thread, it may be tedious to find the post I'm quoting, it's on page 4 of the thread, towards the end, if that helps.
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Old 11-08-2005, 09:06   #240
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Monday, 11-7-05 KB!

Well, It just happened. I have a 22 and 23(along with a 19 that I have been using off and on for over 10 years). I decided to take the 23 and some new mags to the range yesterday along with some Ranger Win.180gr SXT and Fed.155gr HydraShok. The Fed's were purchased at a recent gun show and were a case that was open but full.
After determining the Fed's were more accurate in the 23 I starting using them exclusivley for practice. I noticed a couple rounds were hotter than the rest but just figured it was me getting tired so I continued. Several rounds into that mag it happened.

BANG! MAG DUMPED TO MY FEET, EXTRACTOR WENT FLYING SLIDE LOCKED!
I stood for a moment, looked at my hurting hands and saw all ten digits, no blood, just red marks. I was fine, no emabarassing stains on the pants either.

My gunsmith will be checking it this coming Monday.
The gun-extractor long gone, case head stripped off and gone with rest of case left in chamber. Classic 6'oclock rupture visible.
Mag-split down the right side.
The frame-all seems normal.
Barrel-all seems normal.
Slide-all seems normal.

Ammo-after re-composing myself I checked each box of the Federal 155gr HydraShok in the case, round by round. Including the unfinished box I was shooting at the time of the incident. All of the other headstamps read Federal but this one box read FC. Clearly the older rounds. The seller had found a way to get rid of them, hide them in case lots. Lesson learned!
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