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Old 10-20-2005, 17:23   #226
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Quote:
Originally posted by philkryder
Well, I thought for a bit and here is what I came up with.

After market barrel manufacturers sell barrels that are different than the factory barrels.

If they were the SAME, no one would buy them.
So they must make them different to attract buyers.
The implication is that KKM/Jarvis/Barsto/etc barrels with tighter chambers, more case support and button rifling are only like that because it makes them different than the factory barrel, and not because those specific features have meaningful benefits.

That's a ludicrous argument.
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Old 10-20-2005, 19:57   #227
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Quote:
Originally posted by mobocracy
The implication is that KKM/Jarvis/Barsto/etc barrels with tighter chambers, more case support and button rifling are only like that because it makes them different than the factory barrel, and not because those specific features have meaningful benefits.

That's a ludicrous argument.

Perhaps you think it is ludicrous -
but
?would you buy them if they were the same as factory OEM?

The secondary manufacturers must differentiate their products to have a market.

But that differentiation doesn't make them "better" or somehow "more optimal".

Search the posts to see how many of us successfully shoot many reloads - including lead - from factory barrels...


I'm sure that if Glock were to switch to tight cut or button rifled barrels from the factory, that there would arise a secondary manufacture with "loose - combat spec polygonal rifled barrels" for maximum reliabilty and velocity...

That's one of the beauties of capitalism and being free to choose.
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Old 10-20-2005, 21:03   #228
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Quote:
Originally posted by mobocracy
..., then the barrel is insufficient in some aspect of its design (wall thickness, metallurgy, etc).
Not necessarily -

The safety valve need only come into effect with ammo BEYOND spec.
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Old 10-20-2005, 21:33   #229
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Quote:
Originally posted by philkryder
Perhaps you think it is ludicrous -
but
?would you buy them if they were the same as factory OEM?

The secondary manufacturers must differentiate their products to have a market.

But that differentiation doesn't make them "better" or somehow "more optimal".
I think the KKM barrel I have in my Glock 29 is "better" and "more optimal" than the factory barrel. It groups a hell of a lot tighter than my stock barrel and my fired cases are far less expanded than they are out of my stock barrel.

Fired cases from my S&W 1066 and 1006 have a lot of slop in my stock barrel, but have little or none in the KKM. Fired cases from my stock barrel are so expanded that they stick in my 1066 and 1006 chamber to the point of needing to knock them out with a brass rod, KKM fired cases do not.

I call this actual differentiation demonstrating a better product and not just market differentiation.
Quote:
Search the posts to see how many of us successfully shoot many reloads - including lead - from factory barrels...
I don't doubt that some people shoot lead reloads in their stock barrels, but most everyone I've talked to who shoots 10mm reloads considered an aftermarket barrel a requirement.
Quote:
I'm sure that if Glock were to switch to tight cut or button rifled barrels from the factory, that there would arise a secondary manufacture with "loose - combat spec polygonal rifled barrels" for maximum reliabilty and velocity...
If you think that was the case, why are there no barrels advertised like this for other guns that don't ship with loose, unsupported chambers? For example, I've never seen a secondary market for Kimber barrels offering loose unsuppported chambers. Could it be it's a solution looking for a problem?
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Old 10-21-2005, 07:18   #230
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Quote:
Originally posted by philkryder
Not necessarily -

The safety valve need only come into effect with ammo BEYOND spec.

You have got to be joking with this safety valve theory!

Were did you read that in Glock's literature or "any" literature?
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Old 10-21-2005, 07:51   #231
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Quote:
Originally posted by philkryder

Search the posts to see how many of us successfully shoot many reloads - including lead - from factory barrels...

(I too have shot lead through glock factory barrels but the aftermarket barrels makers give you barrels with rifling that shoot lead bullets better.)


I'm sure that if Glock were to switch to tight cut or button rifled barrels from the factory, that there would arise a secondary manufacture with "loose - combat spec polygonal rifled barrels" for maximum reliabilty and velocity...

(If Glock were to swith, you could not "give" the current barrels away! No one manufactures loose chambered,polygonal rifeled barrels for pistols and plans to become a competive barrel manufacter in today's market.)

That's one of the beauties of capitalism and being free to choose. [/B]
(One of the beauties of capitalism and the freedom to choose is that the market dictates success, not company politics. That is why aftermarket barrels are selling. They offer a better product. I put a Clark barrel in my 1911 back in 1992 because the aftermarket barrel offers a match chamber and better lockup than the factory colt barrel. Aftermarket barrels that are better than a gun company's factory barrels are nothing new. Some gun manufacturer are giving you a decent factory barrel and some are not. That's one of the main reasons the market for aftermarket barrels is thriving.)
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Old 10-22-2005, 17:24   #232
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I'm a Glock newbie and I'm getting a headache already with the KB issue. Please, I have one question: I just purchased a NIB G19. I plan to shoot only factory-made FMJ and JHP through it, as repeatedly recommended in this threat. That is, no reloads. I bought the G19 from a respected licensed dealer at a Miami Gun Show a week ago. I haven't shot the gun yet. A lady named Wilma is blocking my access to the range this weekend, but I digress. At the gun show I also bought 200 rounds of FMJ 9mmP from a Georgia Arms distributor at the same show. The bags are marked "factory loaded," and they look it. I also plan to shoot Remington, Federal, and Winchester rounds through it. Now to my question: are these good safe rounds that the Glock is designed to shoot? Or should I squint a lot when I shoot the
gun? ;g This is my only Glock. I do not shoot 40 or 357 sig. ;g
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Old 10-22-2005, 18:20   #233
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Quote:
Originally posted by Babysinister
I'm a Glock newbie and I'm getting a headache already with the KB issue. Please, I have one question: I just purchased a NIB G19. I plan to shoot only factory-made FMJ and JHP through it, as repeatedly recommended in this threat. That is, no reloads. I bought the G19 from a respected licensed dealer at a Miami Gun Show a week ago. I haven't shot the gun yet. A lady named Wilma is blocking my access to the range this weekend, but I digress. At the gun show I also bought 200 rounds of FMJ 9mmP from a Georgia Arms distributor at the same show. The bags are marked "factory loaded," and they look it. I also plan to shoot Remington, Federal, and Winchester rounds through it. Now to my question: are these good safe rounds that the Glock is designed to shoot? Or should I squint a lot when I shoot the
gun? ;g This is my only Glock. I do not shoot 40 or 357 sig. ;g
Yes, shoot and enjoy, if you are shooting quality ammo from a place like georgia arms, or factory loaded stuff you will likely never have any kind of problem, I shoot only my reloads, no factory, more than I can keep track of, in the hundreds of thousands and have only had a couple of minor problems, this stuff is more tempest in a teacup than anything, shoot, enjoy, and forget about this thread.
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Old 10-23-2005, 02:33   #234
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Quote:
Originally posted by Babysinister
I'm a Glock newbie and I'm getting a headache already with the KB issue. Please, I have one question: I just purchased a NIB G19. I plan to shoot only factory-made FMJ and JHP through it, as repeatedly recommended in this threat. That is, no reloads. I bought the G19 from a respected licensed dealer at a Miami Gun Show a week ago. I haven't shot the gun yet. A lady named Wilma is blocking my access to the range this weekend, but I digress. At the gun show I also bought 200 rounds of FMJ 9mmP from a Georgia Arms distributor at the same show. The bags are marked "factory loaded," and they look it. I also plan to shoot Remington, Federal, and Winchester rounds through it. Now to my question: are these good safe rounds that the Glock is designed to shoot? Or should I squint a lot when I shoot the
gun? ;g This is my only Glock. I do not shoot 40 or 357 sig. ;g
You are more likely to be hit by lightning while shooting the G-19 than to have it kB. And I'm not being facetious!
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Old 10-23-2005, 06:14   #235
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Quote:
Originally posted by Glock30fan
You are more likely to be hit by lightning while shooting the G-19 than to have it kB. And I'm not being facetious!
Actually, I've been hit by secondary lightning -- in April, 1994, in West Kendall, and survived. Since then, the natives fear me. But, yes, I was not firing a G19 at the time. With Wilma coming to Miami, now I have something to look forward to. Thanks for the responses. They are most becalming.
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Old 10-23-2005, 06:23   #236
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Quote:
Originally posted by Babysinister
I'm a Glock newbie and I'm getting a headache already with the KB issue. Please, I have one question: I just purchased a NIB G19. I plan to shoot only factory-made FMJ and JHP through it, as repeatedly recommended in this threat. That is, no reloads. I bought the G19 from a respected licensed dealer at a Miami Gun Show a week ago. I haven't shot the gun yet. A lady named Wilma is blocking my access to the range this weekend, but I digress. At the gun show I also bought 200 rounds of FMJ 9mmP from a Georgia Arms distributor at the same show. The bags are marked "factory loaded," and they look it. I also plan to shoot Remington, Federal, and Winchester rounds through it. Now to my question: are these good safe rounds that the Glock is designed to shoot? Or should I squint a lot when I shoot the
gun? ;g This is my only Glock. I do not shoot 40 or 357 sig. ;g

Glocks in 9mm are ok, you will probably never have a kb.
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Old 10-25-2005, 17:04   #237
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I'm always scared to buy those corbon .40 bullets for my Glock 27. They are loaded up to do 1900fps. I just stay away from all those high powered rounds, scared of fragging my pistol..

The strongest ammo limit for me is stuff like Federal Hydra-shock. They have 1190fps, JHP.
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Old 10-26-2005, 02:56   #238
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i've fired around a hundred rounds of corbon thru my g22 w/o any problems whatsoever, well......except for the wicked recoil;f
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Old 10-28-2005, 11:51   #239
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Quote:
Originally posted by KerrtMoremin
AUL GOLCKS BLOE UHPˇˇ
Jsut assck Deen Spier. The krangcky oaled farght... >;[
After I managed to put a stop from my helpless laughter after reading this post, I think I've identified this character. Except for the 'do he's wearing, he looks just like one of the musicians who were ordered to play their string instruments to cover up the cries of pain while Tuco is getting a beating inside the command post in The Good the Bad and the Ugly. This is the guy who finally stops playing and looks pitifully at the brutal guard, who commands him to continue playing. Congrats, that was the best acting in the picture after Eli Wallach's Tuco.

It's a long thread, it may be tedious to find the post I'm quoting, it's on page 4 of the thread, towards the end, if that helps.
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Old 11-08-2005, 08:06   #240
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Monday, 11-7-05 KB!

Well, It just happened. I have a 22 and 23(along with a 19 that I have been using off and on for over 10 years). I decided to take the 23 and some new mags to the range yesterday along with some Ranger Win.180gr SXT and Fed.155gr HydraShok. The Fed's were purchased at a recent gun show and were a case that was open but full.
After determining the Fed's were more accurate in the 23 I starting using them exclusivley for practice. I noticed a couple rounds were hotter than the rest but just figured it was me getting tired so I continued. Several rounds into that mag it happened.

BANG! MAG DUMPED TO MY FEET, EXTRACTOR WENT FLYING SLIDE LOCKED!
I stood for a moment, looked at my hurting hands and saw all ten digits, no blood, just red marks. I was fine, no emabarassing stains on the pants either.

My gunsmith will be checking it this coming Monday.
The gun-extractor long gone, case head stripped off and gone with rest of case left in chamber. Classic 6'oclock rupture visible.
Mag-split down the right side.
The frame-all seems normal.
Barrel-all seems normal.
Slide-all seems normal.

Ammo-after re-composing myself I checked each box of the Federal 155gr HydraShok in the case, round by round. Including the unfinished box I was shooting at the time of the incident. All of the other headstamps read Federal but this one box read FC. Clearly the older rounds. The seller had found a way to get rid of them, hide them in case lots. Lesson learned!
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Old 11-08-2005, 08:54   #241
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Re: Monday, 11-7-05 KB!

Quote:
Originally posted by Albert Shear
Ammo-after re-composing myself I checked each box of the Federal 155gr HydraShok in the case, round by round. Including the unfinished box I was shooting at the time of the incident. All of the other headstamps read Federal but this one box read FC. Clearly the older rounds. The seller had found a way to get rid of them, hide them in case lots. Lesson learned!
I have a few boxes of Federal Hydra Shok in 9mmP for my G19, including my carry rounds. I wasn't aware there was a problem with the older rounds. Mine are practically all FCs. Were these FC's recalled?? Would love to know!
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Old 11-08-2005, 12:25   #242
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Re: Monday, 11-7-05 KB!

Quote:
Originally posted by Albert Shear
Ammo-after re-composing myself I checked each box of the Federal 155gr HydraShok in the case, round by round. Including the unfinished box I was shooting at the time of the incident. All of the other headstamps read Federal but this one box read FC. Clearly the older rounds. The seller had found a way to get rid of them, hide them in case lots. Lesson learned! [/B]
Ouch! Glad you're still in one piece, even if your gun isn't -- you can buy a new Glock, you can't buy new fingers.

I'm always dubious about gun show ammo to begin with. Sometimes it looks like old stock, sometimes new, but I always wonder how the guys at these tables can get ammo and sell it lower than some of the usual online places that seem to be low-price leaders.

I've bought some remanufactured .45ACP, but the guy selling it was locally based (he had flyers and contact info), and I'm a little less worried about .45 than other ammo.
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Old 11-08-2005, 20:23   #243
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hello Albert, I understand your pain! A good day shooting should not end that way! You should read the preceding posts about the kb's of the .40 caliber glocks? Lots of good discussion there. I am not an expert gunsmith/engineer by no stretch of the imagination, but from my experience reloading pistol and rifle ammo, I have a hard time believing that the 6'oclock bulge in the brass shot from a glock should be acceptable. It is just plain and simply, poor barrel engineering for such a high pressure catridge like the 40. My factory barrel bulged the brass "every" time with mildly loaded Winchester white box ammo. I have a Storm Lake barrel for my glock 23, and I shoot 180-200 grain, loaded for bear stuff with no sign of case bulge at the 6 o'clock position. One can learn a lot from the empty brass their pistol or rifle ejects.
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Old 11-09-2005, 07:49   #244
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Glad that you are OK.

I wonder if some of the ammo was reloaded, not just old. You might want to notify Federal and Glock and preserve the evidence for their professional inspection. They might be able to check this out by an examination of the cases and disassembly of the rounds.
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Old 11-09-2005, 07:53   #245
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Quote:
Originally posted by jbremount
hello Albert, I understand your pain! A good day shooting should not end that way! You should read the preceding posts about the kb's of the .40 caliber glocks? Lots of good discussion there. I am not an expert gunsmith/engineer by no stretch of the imagination, but from my experience reloading pistol and rifle ammo, I have a hard time believing that the 6'oclock bulge in the brass shot from a glock should be acceptable. It is just plain and simply, poor barrel engineering for such a high pressure catridge like the 40. My factory barrel bulged the brass "every" time with mildly loaded Winchester white box ammo. I have a Storm Lake barrel for my glock 23, and I shoot 180-200 grain, loaded for bear stuff with no sign of case bulge at the 6 o'clock position. One can learn a lot from the empty brass their pistol or rifle ejects.
I can only guess that the Glock engineers tested various barrel configurations and determined the amount of case head support for reliable function with new ammo that also gave them the biggest opening to feed new rounds to prevent jamming.

One gets the impression, though, that the tolerance associated with case head support favors the big opening/reliable feeding aspect vs. more case head support.

I have a KKM Precision for my G29, and given the number of aftermarker barrel vendors and the relative popularity of them among Glock owners, I'm surprised Glock hasn't offered "full support" barrels either as a model variation (G29S) or as an accessory. Maybe this would be tantamount to admitting that their barrels lack support and increase their liability -- I don't know.
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Old 11-09-2005, 09:23   #246
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The after market barrel and design issues have been discussed at very great length. Even after market barrels will KB if the load is too hot or defective. That is why it is important to first determine if the ammo was within specs.

If the ammo was within spec., then the agrument for design change and after market barrels is stronger.

The other lesson to be learned here is about not using any ammo with a suspect history.

Cheap ammo can be very costly - way beyond the value of the gun. What are your fingers, hand, arm or eyes worth?
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Old 11-09-2005, 09:29   #247
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Quote:
Originally posted by jmacelree
The after market barrel and design issues have been discussed at very great length. Even after market barrels will KB if the load is too hot or defective. That is why it is important to first determine if the ammo was within specs.

If the ammo was within spec., then the agrument for design change and after market barrels is stronger.

The other lesson to be learned here is about not using any ammo with a suspect history.

Cheap ammo can be very costly - way beyond the value of the gun. What are your fingers, hand, arm or eyes worth?
I don't disagree about "cheap" ammo, but I think the important and unanswered question is about how much tolerance the stock barrels are offering should ammo vary from spec.

There's all kinds of things besides reloading or double-charging that could cause a case to fail, and pushing the case support to the outer limits of case strength tolerances just seems risky.
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Old 11-09-2005, 09:50   #248
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Thanks all.
The Federal ammo all appeared to be new boxes,unbroken end flaps and new, unfired rounds that did not look to be reloaded. Comparing to a new box of HydraShok I just purchased they are identical.

Babysinister-FC stamped had a weakness in the web area of the case construction-a defect. Federal strengthened the case and to differentiate the the newer cases from the older they began stamping the Federal instead of FC.

As soon as I get more into the gun and install a new extractor and remove the case remnant from the chamber, my 'smith and I will go over completely. Right now it appears no other damage exists.
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Old 11-10-2005, 05:33   #249
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pics

I took a few pics yesterday.
Valuable Info

Valuable Info

And split in mag.
Valuable Info
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Old 11-10-2005, 07:36   #250
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That you need to send to Glock and Federal
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