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Old 04-12-2014, 06:32   #1
dondulah
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New 20sf advice on RSA

I am a new 10mm owner, own many glocks but first 10mm. Besides sights I don't usually change anything on my glocks. I am buying an almost new, 20sf, all stock except trijicon HD sights. I will be shooting mostly 1050fps reloads for practice and Underwood for carry.

I have no issue running the OEM RSA because that is what I do with my other glocks. I know you can run the stock barrel and stock RSA with underwood no problem.

However, I do like the ability to rapid fire accurately as I can with my g19 for example, but this is not g19 round.

Is there anything the experts in this forum have found to be as reliable as the OEM spring, but is faster/more accurate/less muzzle flip/reduces recoil. Is there any such rod/spring/system for a gen 3 20sf?
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Old 04-12-2014, 06:57   #2
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I have an IsmI 22 lb spring and guide rod combo that works very well. Is it better than stock? I am not sure . I want to shoot real 10mm loads not 40 S&W level, so I added the stronger spring.
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Old 04-12-2014, 07:03   #3
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I'm no "expert" BUT Shoot the G20 first prior to thinking about replacing anything. The G20sf I own is getting a steady diet of 180gr XTP's at original design velocities or above. That's in an all stock gun and the recoil is nothing to speak of even when you compare it to a .357 magnum in a revolver.
My frame shows NO impacts from the slide at all. Everything box stock.
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Last edited by Gunruner1917; 04-13-2014 at 19:01.. Reason: didn't seem to get my point across that the G20 doesn't have much recoil or muzzle flip?
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Old 04-12-2014, 08:11   #4
Arnold Kuhl
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If you are in need of more Starline 10mm brass, go to Cabela's ASAP. They have it in stock, but it probably won't last long.

AK
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Old 04-12-2014, 09:02   #5
dondulah
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This is all very good advice and feedback. Thanks so much. I definitely have no issue keeping it stock.

In addition to the above, has anyone found something better than the OEM set up to provide better life to the frame, reduce recoil/muzzle flip, faster follow up...? Just curious if there is something that with all of the rounds fired in this room, if someone found a better mousetrap. So far, I have some good feedback on the ISMI combo. Thanks again!
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Old 04-12-2014, 09:08   #6
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Originally Posted by dondulah View Post
I am a new 10mm owner, own many glocks but first 10mm. Besides sights I don't usually change anything on my glocks. I am buying an almost new, 20sf, all stock except trijicon HD sights. I will be shooting mostly 1050fps reloads for practice and Underwood for carry.

I have no issue running the OEM RSA because that is what I do with my other glocks. I know you can run the stock barrel and stock RSA with underwood no problem.

However, I do like the ability to rapid fire accurately as I can with my g19 for example, but this is not g19 round.

Is there anything the experts in this forum have found to be as reliable as the OEM spring, but is faster/more accurate/less muzzle flip/reduces recoil. Is there any such rod/spring/system for a gen 3 20sf?

The only thing you can do to reduce recoil effects is add weight or shoot a lighter load. Some guys buy a tungsten guide rod. I have not tried one myself so I can't tell you how much of a difference it might make.


There is a small community of guys that believe a heavier recoil spring will help keep the gun in lockup a little longer, thus improve accuracy as you move up the load spectrum into nuclear territory.


I can't say if that is true or not, all I can say is my 22lb ISMI spring and SS guide rod does add to felt recoil. I am willing to put up with the higher felt recoil as it helps keep the slide from battering the receiver when I shoot very hot 10mm loads, but the price you pay is more felt recoil.


Lately I have decided I am going to take my SD load down from 1300+ fps for a 180gr XTP from my Stock G20SF barrel (about 1250fps from my G29SF barrel), with something closer to 1200 the goal for the 20. I know below 1300fps I can start using the stock spring on my G20SF again, which will reduce felt recoil and the whole package give me much better recovery time and still deliver plenty of energy to the target.
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Old 04-12-2014, 09:28   #7
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The only thing you can do to reduce recoil effects is add weight or shoot a lighter load. Some guys buy a tungsten guide rod. I have not tried one myself so I can't tell you how much of a difference it might make.


There is a small community of guys that believe a heavier recoil spring will help keep the gun in lockup a little longer, thus improve accuracy as you move up the load spectrum into nuclear territory.


I can't say if that is true or not, all I can say is my 22lb ISMI spring and SS guide rod does add to felt recoil. I am willing to put up with the higher felt recoil as it helps keep the slide from battering the receiver when I shoot very hot 10mm loads, but the price you pay is more felt recoil.


Lately I have decided I am going to take my SD load down from 1300+ fps for a 180gr XTP from my Stock G20SF barrel (about 1250fps from my G29SF barrel), with something closer to 1200 the goal for the 20. I know below 1300fps I can start using the stock spring on my G20SF again, which will reduce felt recoil and the whole package give me much better recovery time and still deliver plenty of energy to the target.
could you please post your hot and cold load data.
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Old 04-12-2014, 11:54   #8
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Originally Posted by Arnold Kuhl View Post
If you are in need of more Starline 10mm brass, go to Cabela's ASAP. They have it in stock, but it probably won't last long.

AK
Thanks Arnold, I just got their last 200! The sales lady said once in they are usually gone by 10am.
I do thank you again!!!!............Mike
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Old 04-12-2014, 13:08   #9
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Well I bought the digital fish scale to attempt to measure the point at which the slide starts to move with the factory spring vs. the Wolff Gun Springs 22lb. Not very accurate but the results did repeat and may have to refine the setup to gain better results...Gun is set so the striker is pre-cocked

Glock 20Sf Factory spring test
It takes 5lb 3oz to start the slide to move from the locked position
Full retraction at 18lb 0oz at lock open

Glock 20SF spring test Wolff Gun Springs 22lb RSA installed
It takes 6lb 4oz to start the slide to move from the locked position
Full retraction at 22lb 9oz at lock open

Slightly over a pound difference 1lb 1oz to start the slide to move from the locked position
Slightly over a 2 pound difference 2lb 9oz at lock open

My 20SF is working well with both spring setups...
Tested the Parabellum Research PBR 165 grain FMJ V-Supreme ammo, 50 rounds...

Wind was stiff and moving clouds made some shots not register on the CHRONY.

Here are the results of the range trip, Glock 20 SF.
NO failures of any kind. I did fire 15, 5, 3, 2 from each of two different magazines.

Factory barrel/spring
1290, 1344, 1317, 1340, 1317, 1340, 1280, 1334, 1328, 1191,
1323, 1360, 1380, 1322, 1327, 1324, 1343, 1319, 1331

Factory Barrel Wolff Gun Springs 22lb non captive recoil rod and springs
1295, 1361, 1330, 1335, 1347, 1246, 1342, 1325, 1321, 1333,
1347, 1335, 1328, 1348, 1336, 1333, 1310, 1310

Those were the rounds that registered; I was sort of rushing through this, before anyone else showed up.

Case expansion was 04330”- 0.4340”, typical of Glock Factory Barrels.
I even trying to induce a failure, full mag 15 rounds, 5 rounds, 3 rounds, 2 rounds, two hands, one hand, limp grip, gangsta style. No "Smiles were found using this ammo from the factory barrel. Pull-Down info of this ammo is shown at this link; http://10mm-firearms.com/factory-10m...from-chucky2)/

No problems with this ammo as tested. :D
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Old 04-12-2014, 16:20   #10
dondulah
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In addition to the above, has anyone found something better than the OEM set up to provide better life to the frame, reduce recoil/muzzle flip, faster follow up...? Just curious if there is something that with all of the rounds fired in this room, if someone found a better mousetrap. So far, I have some good feedback on the ISMI combo. Any other set ups to address the aforementioned? Thanks again!
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Old 04-12-2014, 21:17   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _The_Shadow View Post
Well I bought the digital fish scale to attempt to measure the point at which the slide starts to move with the factory spring vs. the Wolff Gun Springs 22lb. Not very accurate but the results did repeat and may have to refine the setup to gain better results...Gun is set so the striker is pre-cocked

Glock 20Sf Factory spring test
It takes 5lb 3oz to start the slide to move from the locked position
Full retraction at 18lb 0oz at lock open

Glock 20SF spring test Wolff Gun Springs 22lb RSA installed
It takes 6lb 4oz to start the slide to move from the locked position
Full retraction at 22lb 9oz at lock open

Slightly over a pound difference 1lb 1oz to start the slide to move from the locked position
Slightly over a 2 pound difference 2lb 9oz at lock open

My 20SF is working well with both spring setups...
Tested the Parabellum Research PBR 165 grain FMJ V-Supreme ammo, 50 rounds...

Wind was stiff and moving clouds made some shots not register on the CHRONY.

Here are the results of the range trip, Glock 20 SF.
NO failures of any kind. I did fire 15, 5, 3, 2 from each of two different magazines.

Factory barrel/spring
1290, 1344, 1317, 1340, 1317, 1340, 1280, 1334, 1328, 1191,
1323, 1360, 1380, 1322, 1327, 1324, 1343, 1319, 1331

Factory Barrel Wolff Gun Springs 22lb non captive recoil rod and springs
1295, 1361, 1330, 1335, 1347, 1246, 1342, 1325, 1321, 1333,
1347, 1335, 1328, 1348, 1336, 1333, 1310, 1310

Those were the rounds that registered; I was sort of rushing through this, before anyone else showed up.

Case expansion was 04330”- 0.4340”, typical of Glock Factory Barrels.
I even trying to induce a failure, full mag 15 rounds, 5 rounds, 3 rounds, 2 rounds, two hands, one hand, limp grip, gangsta style. No "Smiles were found using this ammo from the factory barrel. Pull-Down info of this ammo is shown at this link; http://10mm-firearms.com/factory-10m...from-chucky2)/

No problems with this ammo as tested. :D
Thanks shadow for all the work. I'm interested in your RSA test you did on a scale. Was the oem spring brand-new? Or did it have a few hundred through it to settle in in?
One other thing about all this talk about " frame battering" I've not heard any reports of broken anything. Frame rails, locking blocks, pins, etc. mine has around 30k through it. My breach face is pretty pitted and the frame where the slide hits looks a little beat up but it really hasn't changed in 15k rnds. I think when you shoot them there going to take a little wear. What do you expect.

Last edited by orangeride; 04-12-2014 at 21:19..
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Old 04-12-2014, 22:08   #12
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OrangeRide, That a lot of rounds through your gun, but they are made to run many more in my opinion. Keeping up with proper maintenance and lubrication practices pays the dividends for longevity.

The factory RSA and my G-20SF is basically new, the guy I bought it from didn't shoot it much if at all.

I used a "C" clamp with some heavy card stock between the slide on the back serrations, to hook the scale to the clamp and pulled straight back as possible on the slide to the points of unlock and full retraction. I did this several times to get a good consensus of the readings, to test as in the firearm and functioning, not just the springs themselves.

I have seen a breech face that was busted out from the striker, not sure if that was a fluke or not. I clean & inspect my guns after every range trip, looking for any damage. I do wipe a light coat oil on the breech face, because I have seen brass deposit the full diameter of the case head, this I think helps with smoother feeding, with less drag as the slide returns to battery.

Carrier21 had a locking block break (testing very high impulse loads) on his G-29 (it may have been a poor casting judging how it broke, replaced and was good to go.

I really bought my G-20SF to play with the 9x25Dillon cartridges which have worked much better velocity wise with the 6" barrel, than from the 5" of my S&W1006 and the 3.78" of the G-29. The extra barrel length makes it come alive...

I need to run the same test on my G-29 RSA setups just to see how they are measuring up. I think the non captive setup is holding lockup just a little longer for the higher impulse rounds, thus keeping the case better supported before the ejection cycle starts things moving. The dynamics of the semi auto lends itself to be looked at, videoed via high speed cameras over 1000 FPS, and played in slow-mo, looking for early unlock, frame flexing, slide lock bounce, slide stop bounce or any of a number of other things associated with these dynamic pistol cycles. If I'd been born rich instead of so good looking I'd have one of those cameras...LOL
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Old 04-13-2014, 18:01   #13
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That is some impressive test data. That took some time to organize. Thanks for sharing.

Besides the ISMI combo, has anyone else found a good guide rod/spring combo that reduces recoil/faster follow up/less wear on the frame?
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Old 04-13-2014, 20:00   #14
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Originally Posted by dondulah View Post
That is some impressive test data. That took some time to organize. Thanks for sharing.

Besides the ISMI combo, has anyone else found a good guide rod/spring combo that reduces recoil/faster follow up/less wear on the frame?
You are probably going to have to pick a priority. Reduced recoil is going to happen with lighter loads and lighter spring weights. Action shooters sometimes go to minus power recoil springs to cycle their minor power factor mouse fart loads. If shooting hot loads, the stock RSA will still be softer shooting but might bruise the gun more. In other words, there is no magic pill.


Heavy loads are going to wear things more. It is just physics. That being said, I care absolutely squadoosh about that type of wear on my G20. It is a Glock. I don't see evidence to convince me that it won't run at least another 50K rounds. I run a stock RSA because it cycles perfectly, and felt recoil is no problem. I think Glock got that right. There are some more experienced guys than me that have vastly differently opinions.


I am not yet sold on the concept of RSA having an impact on lockup time, but I'm willing to listen. I've spent about 75 hours this week at the office, so I'm a bit brain fried. Otherwise I'd explain my pondermemnts on the matter. My head hurts too much to think about physics.


If fact, I think I'll shut 'er down and grab a beer.
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Old 04-13-2014, 20:26   #15
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Old 04-13-2014, 21:28   #16
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You are probably going to have to pick a priority. Reduced recoil is going to happen with lighter loads and lighter spring weights. Action shooters sometimes go to minus power recoil springs to cycle their minor power factor mouse fart loads. If shooting hot loads, the stock RSA will still be softer shooting but might bruise the gun more. In other words, there is no magic pill.


Heavy loads are going to wear things more. It is just physics. That being said, I care absolutely squadoosh about that type of wear on my G20. It is a Glock. I don't see evidence to convince me that it won't run at least another 50K rounds. I run a stock RSA because it cycles perfectly, and felt recoil is no problem. I think Glock got that right. There are some more experienced guys than me that have vastly differently opinions.


I am not yet sold on the concept of RSA having an impact on lockup time, but I'm willing to listen. I've spent about 75 hours this week at the office, so I'm a bit brain fried. Otherwise I'd explain my pondermemnts on the matter. My head hurts too much to think about physics.


If fact, I think I'll shut 'er down and grab a beer.
Sheesh... great post.

I also am finding more and more and MORE that the extra weight from a 20 or 22lb RSA is unnecessary. From Shadow's velocity numbers above, comparing 17lb and 22lb RSAs, i did some quick math earlier today and found only a 5fps advantage going to the 22lb Wollf RSA. I also found NO consistency advantage. As long as the stock RSA a guy happens to be using isn't worn to the point of needing replaced, I don't see ANY need to go to a higher spring rate as "frame battering", at least with Glocks, is moot. If you DID happen to get something that even closely resembled "battering" on your frame that actually impacted your shooting performance or safety, I'm sure Glock would get you a new one, no questions asked. I've yet to see anything like that unless the frame in question was simply defective. In EVERY case of random Glock breakages that I've read about, Glock has replaced EVERY one I've read about with a minimum of hassle.

Just a day or so ago I took out my Wolff 22lb RSA and put it in my range bag. I'll keep it handy and might even mess around with different weights (SOMEDAY) but for now, unless there is a reason (other than "battering") to upgrade the RSA weight, I'll be leaving mine stock I think.

Just like you though, Tater, I'm willing to listen to this debate but for now, my mind is basically made up for 99% of cases.
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Old 04-14-2014, 08:24   #17
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Tater: You know that THINKING TOO MUCH about anything is NOT a particularly good idea.

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Old 04-14-2014, 14:20   #18
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Tater: You know that THINKING TOO MUCH about anything is NOT a particularly good idea.

AK
agreed
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Old 04-15-2014, 09:36   #19
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You are probably going to have to pick a priority. Reduced recoil is going to happen with lighter loads and lighter spring weights. Action shooters sometimes go to minus power recoil springs to cycle their minor power factor mouse fart loads. If shooting hot loads, the stock RSA will still be softer shooting but might bruise the gun more. In other words, there is no magic pill.


Heavy loads are going to wear things more. It is just physics. That being said, I care absolutely squadoosh about that type of wear on my G20. It is a Glock. I don't see evidence to convince me that it won't run at least another 50K rounds. I run a stock RSA because it cycles perfectly, and felt recoil is no problem. I think Glock got that right. There are some more experienced guys than me that have vastly differently opinions.


I am not yet sold on the concept of RSA having an impact on lockup time, but I'm willing to listen. I've spent about 75 hours this week at the office, so I'm a bit brain fried. Otherwise I'd explain my pondermemnts on the matter. My head hurts too much to think about physics.


If fact, I think I'll shut 'er down and grab a beer.
This is good feedback. I am not a stranger to guns, or glocks... just to 10mm and the hotter loads that are a great feature to this round. So I understand the less recoil with lighter loads...

So I am fully aware that many folks keep it stock and the reasons why.

However, I was curious based on the experience of this great forum, with "ALL" of the solutions with springs guide rods, spring/guide rod combos.... if anyone has good experience with something that is not OEM. So far we have one person with ISMI spring/guide rod combo. I appreciate that. Anyone else have any experience they would like to share?
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Old 04-15-2014, 19:27   #20
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This is good feedback. I am not a stranger to guns, or glocks... just to 10mm and the hotter loads that are a great feature to this round. So I understand the less recoil with lighter loads...

So I am fully aware that many folks keep it stock and the reasons why.

However, I was curious based on the experience of this great forum, with "ALL" of the solutions with springs guide rods, spring/guide rod combos.... if anyone has good experience with something that is not OEM. So far we have one person with ISMI spring/guide rod combo. I appreciate that. Anyone else have any experience they would like to share?
I do have a Wolff 22# non-captured spring, and guide rod. It is noticeably stiffer, and follow up shots for me are a bit slower. I do not find it to be an improvement over the stock RSA. Ironically, i bought it to improve hot and heavy load performance. By it is this types of load that encounters the occasional failure to feed. Lower powered loads cycled fine, with the difference being more felt recoil. I havent used that setup for a few years now.

My aftermarket RSA experience for th G20 is limited to that, so my data point is going to be somewhat limited for the blanks you are looking to fill.

FWIW, the ISMI flat wire concept makes more sense to me.

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Old 04-15-2014, 19:30   #21
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I'll share...

My G20SF would experience a few failures to extract shooting heavy loads from Underwood. I switched to a captive 22 pound RSA from Glockstore and the FTE malfunctions stopped. My theory is that the heavy loads caused the slide to slam back against the polymer frame causing excessive frame flex. The stiffer RSA solved the problem, and the gun runs like a champ with this combo.

I run a 20 pound RSA for the mid range loads, and the stock RSA for the light stuff.
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Old 04-15-2014, 19:39   #22
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I'll share...

My G20SF would experience a few failures to extract shooting heavy loads from Underwood. I switched to a captive 22 pound RSA from Glockstore and the FTE malfunctions stopped. My theory is that the heavy loads caused the slide to slam back against the polymer frame causing excessive frame flex. The stiffer RSA solved the problem, and the gun runs like a champ with this combo.

I run a 20 pound RSA for the mid range loads, and the stock RSA for the light stuff.
Isn't it crazy how different things run? You are about a 180 from me. I put the stock RSA back in to cleanup failures with hot ammo. Your experience was the exact opposite!
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Old 04-15-2014, 19:45   #23
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Isn't it crazy how different things run? You are about a 180 from me. I put the stock RSA back in to cleanup failures with hot ammo. Your experience was the exact opposite!
I was actually thinking the same when I read your post.

I don't have an answer, other than perhaps different "batches" of guns come slightly different from the factory? Or perhaps our shooting styles are different, with different grips, wrist holds, hand size, etc.

Interesting though..
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Old 04-16-2014, 06:30   #24
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This is all good feedback. Keep it coming.
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Old 04-16-2014, 07:11   #25
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I want a gun that runs what I shoot. To carry a pocket full of parts to change out depending on what I may have in the magazine light loads or heavy loads doesn't do anything for me. My gun functions fine with heavy loads in stock form and stock RSA. I own other guns so I have no reason to shoot any light or "target" loads in my 10mm. I think that getting used to shooting light loads in your G20 and then carrying heavy loads for defense is a slippery slope. Your follow up shots and initial recoil impulse will not be familiar. Shoot target's and train with what you use on duty or carry. Only you know YOUR limitations and how YOUR gun shoots. Decide on an accurate loading at the power you want to use THEN try other RSA, connectors or things you think you need to change. What others carry or use has no bearing on what will work for you. These threads are entertaining but are not an excuse for trigger time and your actual testing of loads and accessories. Just my $.02.....Mike
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