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Old 09-25-2014, 14:13   #1
tilefish
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How's this for a theory?

So in relation to the problem discussed here: http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1544675


I went to visit the local certified Glock armorer. He is an older gentleman and has been at it for quite a while, this guy knows his stuff. Anyway, after observing the feeding issue, the lose fit etc... and the mag feeding into the left side of the chamber, he tore the gun apart, inspected, clean and replaced several parts all to no avail. He was stumped.

So then we start comparing the mag fit to other G20's he had in stock and the difference was clear... My mags fit loose and do in fact twist. We swapped frames/mags/slides etc every which way and the result was clear. Something is not right with my gun.

To give you a little background, I bought this firearm during the severe shortage (in North Carolina from) a dealer with serious buying power and a direct relationship with Glock, no wholesaler middle man. This was right in the middle of the extreme shortage of Glocks, as in they didn't exist.

With that said, this gun has never been quite right right. Its had odd feeding problems, RSA issues, slide not returning to battery, a completely bad mag that Glock replaced (they also sent me a new RSA) and also reassembly issues/difficulties that the armorer also noticed on his own and found odd.

Long story short, the gun is now on its way back to Glock for evaluation. Its kind of a wild theory and the armorer is not saying that he is right but he is wondering if frame molded for a G21 somehow ended up getting stamped with the correct serial number (all the numbers match) for a G20.... he did not have a G21 on hand to compare but the magwell seemed to be the correct size for .45 cal mags but too large for 10mm mags, as demonstrated by all of our comparisons.

Its a wild theory/idea and highly unlikely but considering the rush to pump out pistols when it was made, that is exactly the type of circumstance that could allow that to happen. I guess we will know for sure when Smyrna reports back...
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Old 09-25-2014, 16:40   #2
WeeWilly
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Originally Posted by tilefish View Post
So in relation to the problem discussed here: http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1544675


I went to visit the local certified Glock armorer. He is an older gentleman and has been at it for quite a while, this guy knows his stuff. Anyway, after observing the feeding issue, the lose fit etc... and the mag feeding into the left side of the chamber, he tore the gun apart, inspected, clean and replaced several parts all to no avail. He was stumped.

So then we start comparing the mag fit to other G20's he had in stock and the difference was clear... My mags fit loose and do in fact twist. We swapped frames/mags/slides etc every which way and the result was clear. Something is not right with my gun.

To give you a little background, I bought this firearm during the severe shortage (in North Carolina from) a dealer with serious buying power and a direct relationship with Glock, no wholesaler middle man. This was right in the middle of the extreme shortage of Glocks, as in they didn't exist.

With that said, this gun has never been quite right right. Its had odd feeding problems, RSA issues, slide not returning to battery, a completely bad mag that Glock replaced (they also sent me a new RSA) and also reassembly issues/difficulties that the armorer also noticed on his own and found odd.

Long story short, the gun is now on its way back to Glock for evaluation. Its kind of a wild theory and the armorer is not saying that he is right but he is wondering if frame molded for a G21 somehow ended up getting stamped with the correct serial number (all the numbers match) for a G20.... he did not have a G21 on hand to compare but the magwell seemed to be the correct size for .45 cal mags but too large for 10mm mags, as demonstrated by all of our comparisons.

Its a wild theory/idea and highly unlikely but considering the rush to pump out pistols when it was made, that is exactly the type of circumstance that could allow that to happen. I guess we will know for sure when Smyrna reports back...
Sorry, I posted on the other thread.

You need to find another armorer. The G21 and G20 frames are the same (within variants).
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Last edited by WeeWilly; 09-25-2014 at 16:42..
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Old 09-25-2014, 18:05   #3
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Anything that you can imagine going wrong, can happen in high volume production. They have their error proofing systems and their gages to prevent this, but they are not perfect.

Injection molded parts have somewhere on them an identifier in the tool that tells what tool and cavity the part came from, so Glock should be able to tell if you are correct immediately.

It does seem odd though, that they would be so similiar to not be able to tell visually that a mistake was made.

More likely you got a part that was cooled improperly causing warpage or other dimensional issues.
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Old 09-25-2014, 18:12   #4
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Sorry, I posted on the other thread.

You need to find another armorer. The G21 and G20 frames are the same (within variants).

Only one around here. Happens to be right down the road, the next closest is waaaaay too far away.

Anyway, its on its way to Smyrna as we speak. The armorer was just throwing ideas out there. My mags fit (snug) and align perfect in all his G20's.

You cannot see the difference in the frame but something is out of whack because when any G20 mag is loaded into my gun, the mags fit loose and the cartridges are pointed left and don't feed reliably.

As long as it comes back working properly I will be happy. I am pretty curious to hear what they have to say though.

Anyone ever send one back? What kind of turnaround time/notification does Glock have? Days, weeks or eons?
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Old 09-26-2014, 09:36   #5
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Only one around here. Happens to be right down the road, the next closest is waaaaay too far away.

Anyway, its on its way to Smyrna as we speak. The armorer was just throwing ideas out there. My mags fit (snug) and align perfect in all his G20's.

You cannot see the difference in the frame but something is out of whack because when any G20 mag is loaded into my gun, the mags fit loose and the cartridges are pointed left and don't feed reliably.

As long as it comes back working properly I will be happy. I am pretty curious to hear what they have to say though.

Anyone ever send one back? What kind of turnaround time/notification does Glock have? Days, weeks or eons?
It sounds like your frame or mags were somehow out of spec. Mags for the G21 and G20 are the same size (external dimensions) as are the gun frames.

Frankly, I think there is just as good a chance you have issues with your mags as the frame. It sounds like you have some sort of tolerance buildup issue between your frame, mag and/or followers.

I will be really interested to hear the final result on this one.
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Old 09-26-2014, 09:42   #6
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It sounds like your frame or mags were somehow out of spec. Mags for the G21 and G20 are the same size (external dimensions) as are the gun frames.

Frankly, I think there is just as good a chance you have issues with your mags as the frame. It sounds like you have some sort of tolerance buildup issue between your frame, mag and/or followers.
I am leaning towards the frame. One of the mags has already been replaced by Glock for a sticking follower.

Also, my mags align/work perfect with other G20's. However if you take brand new G20 mags from a display gun, they are out of alignment in my gun. This gun does not have a lot of use and it is perfectly clean, its not a gunk/dirt buid-up issue either.
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Old 09-26-2014, 09:54   #7
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You need to find another armorer. The G21 and G20 frames are the same (within variants).
Yep, sounds to me like the armorer doesn't really "know his stufff" if that's his theory.
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Old 09-26-2014, 10:12   #8
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I am leaning towards the frame. One of the mags has already been replaced by Glock for a sticking follower.

Also, my mags align/work perfect with other G20's. However if you take brand new G20 mags from a display gun, they are out of alignment in my gun. This gun does not have a lot of use and it is perfectly clean, its not a gunk/dirt buid-up issue either.
I hate hearing these kinds of stories. My faith in Glock has taken quite a few hits lately. I guess every manufacturer has bad streaks... :(

Please make sure you let us know the final resolution.
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Old 09-27-2014, 00:01   #9
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Yep, sounds to me like the armorer doesn't really "know his stufff" if that's his theory.
To be fair, it was not his diagnosis, it was more a thinking out out loud theory. Throwing poop at the wall, so to speak. Sometimes when all the obvious stuff doesn't pan out, people start throwing out ideas. It was just a thought.

We know its not a mag issue

We know the gun does not nor has it ever fed correctly

We know all G20 mags are loose fitting and malfunction in the gun

We know that the magwell is larger than all the other G20's on site.

We know that my mags work perfect in other G20's

We replaced mag catch and spring.

We went over it carefully to ensure there were no other incorrect/damaged or incorrectly installed parts.

We know that the gun is close to brand new in the context of rounds fired.

Something is wrong, its nothing he or I have seen before and it is something to do with the frame. I just wish we took some measurements before we shipped it...

I just hope Glock doesn't take a month of Sundays to evaluate it and/or come back with the "its in spec" line.
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Old 09-27-2014, 10:54   #10
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........................................We know all G20 mags are loose fitting and malfunction in the gun

We know that the magwell is larger than all the other G20's on site.
And with that remark right there you've just proven that the issue is that this particular frame was not molded right, and no parts installed in it will ever fit correctly.

Injection molding is a process that can easily be screwed up so badly that the parts that pop out of your mold will not be worth using. The exact temperature of the melted plastic when it's injected, the exact amount of pressure used, and the exact temperature of the steel mold itself, and the exact amount of time you hold that pressure on the mold while the plastic is cooling off, ALL have an huge impact on how much the part will shrink after it comes out of the injection machine. If things were not done right, the parts you mold today will be very different, dimensionally, from the parts molded in the same press & mold only yesterday, just because the minimum wage press operator didn't know what he was doing. It's a highly skilled job when done right, and takes a long time to aquire the experience to understand it - like learning to play a musical instrument. But most executives without engineering knowledge don't understand that, so they hire unskilled monkeys to do it, and those monkeys usually screw it all up and ruin the companies product in the process. Great executive decision to save money, right?

Given how obvious it is that Glock has some consistency problems in their quality control process with all their machined metal parts, it's not hard to believe that they also have a habit of poor control over how they run their molding pressed from one day to the next too.

If you are sure your frame is dimensionally different from all normal functioning frames, there's no reason to waste further time on the issue. Demand Glock replace it with a frame that measures out at the right dimensions. The frame you have will never work, and shouldn't be expected to.

They probably discovered at the end of a work day that they had run an entire days worth of frame production that was all bad, and like many companies, didn't want to throw them away because of the cost of that. So they sent out bad product instead, knowing that not all of them will ever come back, so it's money saved over scrapping all the parts you already know are bad. That was probably the cause of the Remington R51 fiasco too.
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Old 10-02-2014, 21:43   #11
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Its gonna be a long wait...

I was told by my dealer to expect 4 to 6 weeks before we hear anything. Which we all know will be 6 weeks...
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Old 10-17-2014, 16:37   #12
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So while it is clear something is strange with my gun, I still did not know what. I figured its been a little while, let me call Glock and see if they have an update.

After reading them the serial# twice, they had no record of it... The guy even tried searching by intake zip code/dealer or whatever he was doing. Still zip. At his suggestion, I went down to the shop (with my receipt/ticket)that was supposed to ship it so I could have a little chat with the store owner. He of course tells me it was not back yet, to which I responded "I need a tracking number".

Well after a little scrambling and searching, he finds it. Not the tracking number, the gun... In the "lay-a-way" stack no less. I handed him my ticket and calmly asked him for my gun back.

The good news is that after I called the guy back at Glock and told him what happened, he immediately emailed me an overnight FedEx label and promised to make it right. Nice people at Glock, receptive to my concerns and at least seemed sincere in his promise to make it right.

At least I shipped it myself this time and I know FedEx will get it there. How long to fix though is anyone's guess.

Hey, at least I had the gun back for a few hours to go test a few loads

Last edited by tilefish; 10-17-2014 at 16:37..
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