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Old 05-23-2001, 13:55   #126
Rusty Phillips
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i tried wrapping a 50 grain tnt in pipe tape, but ran out of pipe tape before i could get it up to anything close to .452"

so.... i thought why not try it in my 9mm?

heres the pic of a loaded round next to a Triton 115 grain quick shock

The 10 Ring

basically to make the bullet / sabot (non discarding as I was later to find out) combination - I stuck the bullet point end first into a small dia drinking straw so i would have something to hold onto

then i wrapped teflon pipe tape around the bullet (clockwise if looking at the base of the bullet) using the straw as a handle

when I got it close to 9mm - I ran out of pipe tape.... so I sort of mushed it together between my fingers - to roll it up tighter

then - thinking that it might help to consolidate the teflon layers together.... i heated the nose of the bullet with a flame from a match.... as a side note - the plastic drinking straw immediately melted away from the bullet / pipe tape, and the frontmost part fo the teflon got a little sooty, but it did seem to harden up a bit

I then pushed the slightly oversized bullet through my lee loader (9mm) which has a tapered passageway and was perfect for compacting the oversized teflon wadding down to close to .355

this composite bullet was then seated over 6.8 grains of accurate #5, and then I attempted to crimp it into place using my Dilon 550

attempted to crimp is the operative phrase, as the bullet easily pulled out when I attempted to check its fit in the chamber - dumping the powder charge all over.....

not wanting to delay the test firing any longer I decided to shake all the powder off of my pants & onto asheet of paper & try to get it back into the case as best as possible

I then attempted to fire said cartridge out of my G26....

for some strange reason it didnt fire on the first strike....

i reset the trigger & tried again - this time i got a light poof.... the slide didnt even move

i didnt see a bullet impact in the soft sandy soil I was using as a backdrop, but I did see a small shard of teflon pipe tape flying around

thinking that the teflon & the bullet might be stuck in the barrel, I carefully disassembled the gun & looked down the barrel from the chamber end

it was clear.... not even any powder residue like i normally get with my 4.9 grain (accurate #5) 147 ranier loads....

i looked in the empty case, no powder residue

i was able to find the bullet - and as you will see there was no deformation to the bullet, and only a little distortion to the teflon

The 10 Ring

Im not sure, but it seems to me that the teflon bullet was pushed out the barrel by the primer charge (and all the unburnt powder was blown out the barrel too)

at any rate - I had fun, and I didnt blow anything up or lose any brain cells or fingers or anything

of course, some might say I didnt have too many brain cells to begin with, but that is perhaps the beginning of another thread....

ONE MORE THING - man - those 224's are LOONG...... I am now of the opinion that instead of trying to get sabots for the 9mm 10mm or 45acp or whatever.... we would be better served finding a source of ultra liteweight (RCBD style) full caliber (short) bullets..... I think we would have much better success pushing a short full caliber 55-75 grain fmj to super high velocities than to get anything close to the same results with a 55 grina 224 bullet in a sabot....

due to the projectile length, and the length requirement to fit in the magazine, IMO you end up with too little powder space left over

the round I made up above was too long to fit in the G26 mag..... I realize that the 10mm is a tad longer, but you still have the problem of putting a long bullet in a short case and wanting to cram in a fair bit of powder to boot.

ok - i better go to bed before the meds wear off

The 10 Ring

The 10 Ring

http://www.angelfire.com/sc2/RustyRP...s/P5220014.jpg

http://www.angelfire.com/sc2/RustyRP...s/P5220015.jpg

[This message has been edited by Rusty Phillips (edited 05-27-2001).]
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Old 05-23-2001, 14:38   #127
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Hey Tazz, just a thought hereThe 10 Ringoes anyone remember the .357/.44 Bain & Davis "BOBCAT" from the early '70s ?
It worked very well, sabot,cyl. gap & all.
But in this case, the sabot was really a sleve to support the case, & it acted like a chamber insert; the bbl. was bore size for the bullet.
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Old 06-16-2001, 07:19   #128
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ok so anybody made any progress on this ????

any thoughts on the teflon patched bullets described above?

well, ok - so the pics in my description dont work - go to my web site & scroll down
http://www.angelfire.com/sc2/RustyRP/

comments?
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Old 06-16-2001, 09:30   #129
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Sounds like a lot of work.
And the teflon tape may be too soft to take the rifling.
If you do that again, how about using a faster powder (light bullet), and firing it thru a chronograph?
Might even start with a .22/.30 sabot, and build that up.
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Old 06-16-2001, 12:40   #130
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Quite possibly the easiest thing to do would be to get a .400 OD rod of teflon and then cut down little pellets to length, then drill them in a jig with a drill press to .22, then cut a X dead center from the top. It would be best to first put the teflon rod in a lathe and shape each sabot first so that there is a relief area so that the petals can peal back easy and lathe away some of the base so more powder will fit and bevel the OD of the mouth so it will feed best then cut each one out, drill, and countersink the mouth so the wind catches the petals and slows the sabot and peals the petals back. It could be done pretty easy but it would take some time to get the jigs made and dialed in with a little precision. I'll try to remember to pick up some teflon rod next time i am out and about.

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Old 11-25-2001, 15:07   #131
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New info?
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Old 11-25-2001, 15:15   #132
Rusty Phillips
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I said it before and Ill say it again

Quote:
Originally posted by Rusty Phillips
i tried wrapping a 50 grain tnt in pipe tape,

- man - those 224's are LOONG...... I am now of the opinion that instead of trying to get sabots for the 9mm 10mm or 45acp or whatever.... we would be better served finding a source of ultra liteweight (RCBD style) full caliber (short) bullets..... I think we would have much better success pushing a short full caliber 55-75 grain fmj to super high velocities than to get anything close to the same results with a 55 grina 224 bullet in a sabot....

due to the projectile length, and the length requirement to fit in the magazine, IMO you end up with too little powder space left over
IF YOU WANT SUPER HIGH VELOCITY,

and it has to fit in a G20 magazine,

follow the RCBD example
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Old 11-26-2001, 04:26   #133
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Interesting. I glanced at the posts, but 6 pages of stuff, one can miss a lot.

Any how, the length is no problem for Kaliburz since I'm planning to use it in a 6" 610.
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Old 11-28-2001, 13:12   #134
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Have you looked at black powder rifle sabots for the old .40 henry? I believe they use a 32 caliber bullet. If you haven't looked into the modern black powder stuff recently, you might be pleasantly surprised

Last edited by Casper; 11-28-2001 at 22:34..
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Old 11-28-2001, 15:31   #135
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I did a lot of looking around, but i never found any .40 cal sabots. Did i miss some???

Got a link?

Update: MarkCO is on the project...

Stay tuned...
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Old 11-28-2001, 22:33   #136
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Sorry, I went back and looked. I thought for sure I saw some 409 sabots, but they were 451.
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Old 12-26-2001, 13:47   #137
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Just wanted to bring this to the fore-front again ... any new news?
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Old 12-28-2001, 04:33   #138
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It's such a pleasure...

...to see this thread still alive. ;a
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Old 12-29-2001, 01:11   #139
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Re: It's such a pleasure...

Quote:
Originally posted by Tamara
...to see this thread still alive. ;a
Even better to see that you are still alive. Hope all is well.
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Old 01-03-2002, 05:59   #140
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Yippe I' making the first post of the year 2002(on this thread)

Any luck on the sabots?
I wonder if a .50BMG sabot could be turned down to .45ACP diameter without falling apart?That would allow the use of a .30cal varmint bullet in a Glock 21.

Hmmmmm?

BTW:I saw a post on wilcats cartridges being renamed to avoid copyright infringement for those who merely copyrighted rather than pantented their ideas.There is a version of the .300 Whisper called the .300 Fireball.It's a subsonic round for use in suppressed M16s and it has actually been used by SpecOps teams on more then one occasion.I wonder if there is a similar alternative to the ".2** B*z"?Anyway if you can buy a .300 fireball barrel,dies,reamers when it is an exact copy of a JDJ caliber why not the other?
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Old 11-27-2002, 20:29   #141
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Couldn't let this thing totally disappear ...

Hey TAZ! Have you forgotten us? ;a
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Old 11-28-2002, 00:16   #142
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Haven't forgotten at all. The on going big hold-up is getting the sabots made. I talked at length with the owner of a good sized company that specializes in making sabots at the shot show and the costs involved are enormous and basically prohibitive without a much larger market for the sabots. Many thousands of dollars.

Anyone feeling philanthropic?
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Old 11-28-2002, 15:25   #143
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tazz - i know you guys are hung up on sabots.....


but how difficult would it be to get some jacketed 77 grain 10mm bullets

or even 55 grain?



wouldnt this be a good place to start? at least you can be loading and shooting something instead of wasting time trying to convince someone to make sabots

from the rbcd website
10mm 77 gr. TFSP 2420 fps / 1015 flbs
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Old 11-28-2002, 15:58   #144
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I don't think anyone would mind having 77 or 55 grain 10mm bullets to shoot, but the reasons we wanted to go with the .223 bullet was the variety of .22 bullets available out there for reloading and the fact that British company making the .224 Boz are playing the stuuuuuuuuupid "LEO Only" game. We 10-Ringers just wanted to have a round we could call our own that was not compromised by political or commercial issues.

A 77 grainer kick'n 2420 fps??? ;f How stable is the flight? What kind of accuracy are people getting at 25, 50, and 100yds?
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Old 11-28-2002, 16:01   #145
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Yes, Taz ... how about our buddy down in Alabama/OleMiss that likes to load special 10mm? Probably worth a checkout?

You know who I mean don't you?
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Old 11-29-2002, 08:23   #146
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http://www.rbcd.net/Personal%20Defense%20Ammo.htm

or call 210-223-4009 or
Toll Free: 1-877-688-5985

as far as accuracy - i dunno - why dont you buy some and let us know

the reason i keep bringing this up is that if you ultimately do want to load 10 mm / 223 sabots, you are gonna have to go with some pretty fast powders - as the bullets are gonna offer very little resistance and the expansion ratio is pretty big (volume behind the bullet as it travels down the bore)

the other problem is providing enough momentum to cycle the slide all the way back

didnt cds have to lighten their slide?

you can sort thru these issues with either a 60 grain 10mm bullet, or with a 10/223 sabot and 55 grain 223 bullet.....

besides - i honestly think that you stand a lot better chance of getting a 60 grain 10mm bullet before the end of 2002 than you do getting a 10/223 sabot before the end of 2007

and finally - lets talk about projectile length

a 60 grain 10mm bullet would be pretty damn short... you might even make it as a hollow based style just to give enough bearing surface

compared to this - a 55 grain 223 bullet is very long.... you might not have much room left for powder after cramming in that rifle bullet in to a oal that will fit a g20 mag
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Old 11-29-2002, 14:45   #147
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I am thinking it would be easier to just steal...uh mean appropriate...the .224 Boz and all needed adjuncts.;Q
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Old 05-05-2003, 17:09   #148
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Any updates to this project?
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Old 05-05-2003, 17:46   #149
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I don't know about updates but I have an idea.

How about using the .224 BOZ dimensions and a 10mm Mag case trimmed to 26mm and change the shoulder angle 1į? It is not the same cartrige and therefore not subject to the patent.

Sure, you'd still have to buy a barrel but you'd have what you wanted to begin with, a .224 BOZ that is not restricted.
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Old 05-08-2003, 04:50   #150
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I don't have much handloading / wildcatting experience to donate to this project but I'm enthrawled by the thread. While I don't have any usefull info to contribute I can doanate a few dollars to the cause. Tazz, do you have a paypal account?
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