[Fredalso]

But seriously, folks......

We should welcome our brethern from lesser places; how else can they learn?

Hicap-
It would have potential for the 40 Super [does that need an "(R)"?).
But I have some concern, perhaps unfounded, about setback in the bottlenecked case.
I think a plastic sabot would not hold in the neck as well as a metal bullet.

Now if the sabot had a (potential) crimp groove, then the case mouth could be roll-crimped into it.

[G33]

My G20 is getting real excited!!

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Grock (first Glock: 1,000,000 B.C.)

[HiCap]

Fredalso, I am pretty sure a cannelure was already decided on. If not then hopefully I can cannelure them if needed.

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Big Dawg #175

[This message has been edited by HiCap (edited 09-09-2000).]

[Tazz10m]

Plastic sabots are so soft that we may not need a cannelure, but we will put one in if we need it. Plastic is self lubricating and so "slippery" so we may need a little help from a cannelure, but we have to be careful because the cartridge headspaces on the rim. So far though, i dont see any problem with going with a sabot, rather i see more benefits. Also, by rigging up a little jig, the sabots could be drilled out on center and made to accept larger bullets like the .308 or .357, etc,. I guess that would give the .357 Sig a little run for it's money.

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The only thing that should come between you, and any gun... is comfort... Get Agrip!

Your first and best weapon and/or tool is your mind.

Warning, anything I write is intended to manipulate you into using your mind.

[Fredalso]

For use in 10mm, if there is a setback problem, we could maybe solve it by a cannelure in the case, just below the sabot base. Sort of like Federal does with all their 9mm ammo.

For use in 40 Super, a roll crimp should work, with the cartridge seating on the shoulder.

[Tazz10m]

Yeah, or even on both the sabot and the case. I wonder if it could be fairly deeply crimped on 4 sides of the case mouth so that would still leave a large surface area to headspace on, and upon firing the case would spread to complete the headspace.

It looks like we also may have some slide cycling issues relative to the low recoil impulse. We may need to use a dual spring setup.

------------------
The only thing that should come between you, and any gun... is comfort... Get Agrip!

Your first and best weapon and/or tool is your mind.

Warning, anything I write is intended to manipulate you into using your mind.

[Wulfenite]

Does anyone know how the glock polygonal rifling will affect accuracy? I'm sure there is lots of experience with sabots in traditional rifling but as is the case with glocks and lead bullets or the marlin microgrove rifling and cast bullets, different combinations can produce unpredictable results.

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Wulfenite
10-Ring Member #359
10mm - That's Gonna Leave A Mark...

[Fredalso]

T***-
Now that's an interesting idea.
Simplest way, at first anyway, might be a 2-step crimp.
First step is a normal taper crimp.
Second step might use a roll-crimp die which has been broach cut to leave 4 or 6 pieces of the roll.
(Or maybe reverse those two steps; whichever works best.)
It's a way to try this without the cost of making a really-complicated taper-plus-roll die.

Glock rifling plus plastic sabot?
Yeah, could be a problem, I guess.
If so, worst case is need of an aftermarket G20 or G29 barrel.

[Logos35]

Sent off an email to JD Jones regarding the development of a .224 Boz equivalent. Below is what he had to say.

"First I would scrap the 22 idea. 6.5---30 cal would be more effective, far easier to make and load for as well as possibly producing enough recoil to operate the gun. I would think a test contender barrel to develop ballistics the first step after developing forming-reaming-loading dies. I would expect the form -- ream--load dies would run in the area of $6--800. Reamers--$-175, Just about everything I've heard from private military type sources in and out of the US RE the 224 BOZ has been quite negative. After seeing what happens in a test barrel is the time to start looking into putting it into an autopistol. I'll look at Glocktalk when I get time---I usually don't look at the "chat rooms" due to the excessive amount of dangerous and misinformation in them. One major point woulb be---what do you expect this round to do??? JD"

For those of you who are unfamiliar with JD--he is one of the most prolific wildcatters who ever walked, and builds everything from exotic TC Contender/Encore barrels to Class II/III works of art.
http://www.sskindustries.com/

He asks a truly valid question--what do we want it to do?

[poochg]

We want it to send a 62 grain 224 diamter bullet at least or about in the range of 2,000 FPS! (more is ok, but 1,800 or forget about it)

Lots I can do with that round......hunt, plink, add another caliber to my 10's list, shoot bullets that cost me $.035 apiece, let my 22 lr know whos boss......is this is enough for JD........

Love ya JD, but no thanks on the 6mm, sure in theory it might be better.....but we want it in .224. If we have to we will move to a heaveir bullet and slow the velocity down, but .224 is like the yardstick for this project.......dont you all agree?

[PurchGuru]

Relax Tamara, I found it ... (answer to another post being started and wondering where this one had gotten off to ...).

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#710 in "The 10 Ring"

Why 10 mm ? ...

Because it is the MEANEST dog in the fight!

[Tamara]

Heh... The Eternal Thread...

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Tamara's House of Weapons: If we can't kill it, it's immortal.
10 Ring #2910, Wheelhouse #6254455, Top Guns *.357sig* club, Big Dawg #447
10mm: It's not the size of the Dawg in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog!

[poochg]

Are you down there in that dungeon playing with your samuri again?

[poochg]

Sorry, but only forum leaders are permitted to delete posts.

But ours is busy polishing his samauri!

[This message has been edited by poochg (edited 10-15-2000).]

[PurchGuru]

Taz,

You haven't posted to this for some time ... We aren't going to let it fall-off the list.

Anything new to report ???

[Tazz10m]

...still work'n on it... There are several different routes that could be taken on this project and we are trying to figure the best one to take. We are still waiting to hear from a couple of "experts"...

...the rest, i really can't talk about until later...

Isnt waiting and not knowing fun?

------------------
The only thing that should come between you, and any gun... is comfort... Get Agrip!

Your first and best weapon and/or tool is your mind.

Warning, anything I write is intended to manipulate you into using your mind.

[poochg]

T***223XR,

Who's "we"?

What are the "routes"?

and

Who are the "experts"?

[poochg]

Not so fast there T*** a maraz.........

Are you your word? This post is growing like my children! Now whats up, you said you wanted to make this happen, now you don't even seem to want to talk about it.

I'm not trying to embarrass you, but how about a response to my prior post?

[G33]

Wait........


Wait........


Wait.........


...........

[poochg]

Originally posted by PurchGuru:
Taz,

You haven't posted to this for some time ... We aren't going to let it fall-off the list.

Anything new to report ???

Here here, indeed!!!!

T***z??????

[Tazz10m]

Huh? What? Where???

It's like this people, i only have so much time to put into this project, especially when there is no promise of compensation for monies spent to make it happen. On top of that i have been totally swamped with "prepaid" orders, and those babies pay for my time to do "new product research". What most of you dont know is that i have been fighting a couple of companies that got together, stole Agrip secrets, made a faked product like Agrip, tried to sell the product in Eagle Hardware, and tried to put me out of business by trying to exhaust my ability to pay for attorney and court costs.

I won, they LOST!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

Those companies are "Trade Associates" of Auburn, Washington, which makes cheap Tiawanese pnumatic tools like air hammers and chisels, paint guns, sanders, etc., under various names. These tools are VERY common in the big hardware stores. The guy that owns this company is named "Bill Turnbull", and his wife is in cahoots with him. The other company is "Silver Beau Construction", good question on the address, the guy is a fly-by-night-gypsy that is currently hiding from creditors down around San Louis Obispo, CA. His name is "Randy Schindele". The guy is a low-life piece of crap who would let kids starve just to make a buck. Pi$$ on him. Pi$$ on his wife Rachael too.

Top Current Priority: paying off all the debt related to this fiasco, and getting back on my feet. All this means is the customer comes first, cool projects second.

In addition, the "slowness" of GT loading, or even loading properly really hinders my ability to respond to threads here at GT in a timely manner...

So, what does all this mean? It means that if i dont get any help or money earmarked specifically for this project, it has to wait. Simple huh?

It also would have been nice if the guy that ALREADY makes sabots for other calibers would get back to me like he said he would.

Unless we have people here at GT that can donate CAD/CAM services to help us out, this project is going to take a while... sorry...

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Your first and best weapon or tool is always your mind.

Reality always takes precedence.

The only thing that should come between you, and any gun... is comfort. Get Agrip!

[poochg]

Don't get me wrong, It's not that I am un-sympathetic.......its just.......well.....ok the truth is; the dog ate my homework.

All I asked was:

Who's "we"?

What are the "routes"?

and

Who are the "experts"?

[poochg]

So T***......really have you been hosing us?

Just trying to keep face or what? You post on this board all the time, so its not like you dont have the time to post, why don't you respond to my question?

[Tazz10m]

Poochg, no, i really dont have any time. All my time is paid for in advance by my customers, and Agrip is not all we make here, we also make aircraft steering controls and are in the middle of designing several new products, some of which are going through testing right now.

Who is "we" and what "it" is that we are working on? All classified on a "need to know" basis. If no one can figure out "who" it is exactly that is working on a specific project, they dont know who to milk for the information, so they are less likely to try. As for the "it", or the specific products being worked on, we dont talk about the products we are inventing for obvious reasons.

As for the .223XR, it is just going to have to wait until the time/funds become availible. Squeeky wheel gets the grease. Got money?

------------------
Your first and best weapon or tool is always your mind.

Reality always takes precedence.

The only thing that should come between you, and any gun... is comfort. Get Agrip!

[m65swede]

I'm fairly new to GlockTalk and just found this thread today. But I am a long time reloader and sabot shooter, so thought I would relate a couple of things (and BTT).

These modern sabots can withstand any pressures/velocities you could generate in a handgun caliber such as this. Proper design can lead to exceptional accuracy as well.

An earlier post questioned the distance at which the sabot falls away from the bullet. There seems to be a lot of variation in the sabots used in commercial shotgun/slug sabots and muzzleloader sabots. I usually find the spent sabot from 10 to 35 yards downrange.

But, my Shooting Chrony wears a 1/2 inch diameter x 3/8 deep crater in its metal case; result of a Hornady shotgun slug sabot @ 12 feet. The slug was centered over the "eyes", but the sabot had apparently peeled away at this short range.

Interesting project ya got going here. Hmmmm, I wonder how fast the .224 Hornady 35 grain V-Max would fly out of a short barrel?

Swede


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Big Dawg #633
Member NRA, ISRA, VHA
6.5mm Swedish Mausers and Varmint Rifles