[poochg]

Sabots or not, I'm quite sure the 223XR (whatever) is going to require faster powder then #9 also I think the limitation is the gun and beating it up to much, not the case capacity, that we have!

Now their is a gun I don’t have, a 30 carbine! I sure wish the DCM would include these babies in the program. I like the idea of the gov. selling you a gun. Can they really take it away later, when the entire program is civilian marksmanship....isn’t that the militia, doesn’t that just trump any future cards saying what is the militia and are you one??? (rhetorical question)


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Guns don't raise criminals, mommies do!

[Tazz10m]

The idea of necking down the cartridge has become an idea that is almost all the way down the toilet now. The .357 Sig has become a cartridge i will NEVER own now... Reason: The .357 Sig headspaces on the rim rather than the shoulder... this is not a good because it is causing problems with the shoulder giving way and making it so that the rim no longer contacts the barrel for headspacing. This may not be so much a problem for the first time a round is put up the pipe and fired, but, if the round is taken out and put back in (especially numerous times) there is a possiblilty of KA BOOM!!!!!

So... the only way to go with a necked down cartridge is to have it headspace on the shoulder... Also, i would hate to have the BOZ people give us a bunch of crap about stealing their idea... much as i think they can all kiss my nice tight BUTT!!! Police ONLY my BUTT!!! Tell 'em to call me i will tell them to their faces!

As for the long range use of the 223XR, we will just have to see what happens through experimentation. Poochg is right about the fast burning powder... we need to use a fast burning powder to control the destabilizing effect of the barrel blast after the saboted round leaves the barrel... but, i believe that if the sabot is designed right that will be kept to a minimum and long range accuracy will be improved. Look at the saboted shotgun slug rounds, they seem to be doing pretty good in the accuracy department. Also, let's all try to remember that this is a short range, high velocity, pistol/carbine round for "sporting/plinking" "PC" type purposes... gag... choke... retch...

...Anyway... the idea is to make the most inexpensive .223 round to spit out of a G20 platform and still keep it "effective"... preferably without a barrel change...

The bad guys can wear all the body armor they want... i aim for the head anyway...

Also, as for the length of the 55 grn .223, a 200 grain pill is already shoved in the case about .375 so, that gives us a bit of room to work with seeing the fact that we are working with a much lighter bullet and can potentially shape the sabot in such a way as to maximize the powder capacity and still contain the .223 bullet.

Bottom line, we are going to have to play... ooops, i mean experiment with it a bit before we find the right combination. The key is going to be the sabot design though.

------------------
The only thing that should come between you, and any gun... is comfort... Get Agrip!

Your first and best weapon and/or tool is your mind.

Warning, anything I write is intended to manipulate you into using your mind.

[poochg]

T***, headspacing aside, bullet set back can occur with straight wall cases just as easily as bottlenecks!

If I am lucky enough to get a 10mm case necked down to 223, I plan on roll crimping in the cannelure as I do in my AR. (no bullet set back their)

IMHO, a headspace on the shoulder is better, irrespective of this, I would love to shoot 223 points out of my G20 without a barrel change, so you go T***, you make those sabots happen.

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Guns don't raise criminals, mommies do!

[Merovign]

For those who are just after velocity, have a look at:
http://www.rbcd.net/

They claim a 77gr 10mm at 2400 fps. I'll be talking to them tuesday for more information and to place an order. I'll get back to y'all if I find anything special.

[Tazz10m]

Poochg, bullet setback is also a SERIOUS consern with the .357 Sig and the .400 Corbon, and, even some factory ammo has been having problems with this issue. Checking ALL your ammo of these calibers to make sure the bullets are tight and proper is IMHO imperative.

But... this is not what i am refering to with the issue of the headspacing on the rim. What i am talking about is the shoulder "giving out" and "pushing in" shortening the OAL of the case... preventing the rim from headspacing properly.

I agree, headspacing on the shoulder is much better. I dont know why these cartridges werent designed to headspace on the shoulder.

------------------
The only thing that should come between you, and any gun... is comfort... Get Agrip!

Your first and best weapon and/or tool is your mind.

Warning, anything I write is intended to manipulate you into using your mind.

[Fredalso]

T***-
The .357Sig will headspace on either the case mouth or the shoulder - whichever first stops its forward motion. So there should be no problem roll crimping the [cannelured] bullet and relying on the shoulder for headspace. Just set up the die to avoid setting the shoulder back too far - which you'd want to do anyway.

"""""""""""""

Setback is less a problem with straightwalled cases. Any setback must force the bullet to engage more of the case, which is probably a hair smaller than the bullet. This is not so with necked cartridges.

I like the idea of a sabot for another reason - high velocity without high pressure. With the sabot, the projectile has full 10mm diameter, but weighs only about 60gr. So moderate pressure, acting on the full diameter, makes enough force to really accellerate that light projectile. If you go to max case pressure, so much the faster.

[This message has been edited by Fredalso (edited 05-28-2000).]

[poochg]

Good point Fredalso!

Speaking of setback, how much are these sabots going to set us back, T***?

I found this thread trying to sneak away, so I rescued it from the 10mm trash heap!

Or are we all done here?

------------------
MMM=Million Mislead Moms
Guns don't raise criminals, mommies do!

[Tazz10m]

I dont know, try sticking a fork in it...

Poochg, just now responding... where ya been?

------------------
The only thing that should come between you, and any gun... is comfort... Get Agrip!

Your first and best weapon and/or tool is your mind.

Warning, anything I write is intended to manipulate you into using your mind.

[poochg]

T***, I've been sitting here by my reloading bench this hole time! I got 500 new 10mm cases all primed up and I'm ready to break into one of my ammo cans from IMI filled with 223 55grn tips, got my powder dry, got my 10mm dies all set up in the press, I just need some 10mm/223 sabots. What’s the word, are you gonna be able to make it happen?

Like to start off with say 2,000. Man I am getting tempted to buy a Taurus raging hornet while I'm sitting here waiting, but then I would have to carry two hog legs into the back country.

Those damn Limeys are reading our posts, Civil Defense, has got a lock on this deal. I've exchanged emails with them, they said they have read the posts. There laughing at us they say there is no way, your gonna pull this off! They are laughing at Lietner too, they say Lietner is operating on a shoestring with no insurance and they wont make it either. Your reputation is on the line here T***, in fact you represent the American Gun industry now, these englishmen who have given up their rights to personal firearms say they have exclusive rights to this deal, they say this 223XR is never to be.

Just think how it will feel when your being interviewed by Guns & Ammo about the new cartridge you designed, think of all the free publicity Agrip will get.....forget the Kayaks and seals man, it will be yachts, beluga caviar and the south seas for you!

While Ted Nugent is blasting warthogs, you will be popping gazelles and dingos at 200 yards off hand with your 223XR!

By the way, have you made any progress?


------------------
MMM=Million Mislead Moms
Guns don't raise criminals, mommies do!

[Kaliburz]

Hummmmmmm......

Well, just an FYI...but you all probably knew of this site any how.
www.calweb.com/~haas/ammoguide/runammo.html

It's a java program that list the case specs of rounds, one being the Boz...... and others.

[poochg]

No I didn't, thank you, thats a quick usefull site. Are you interested in the boz, do you shoot 10mm?

[Tazz10m]

Great post Poochg! Hahahahaha!! Toooo funny!!

The bloody Limies have nothin on us Americans! We even speak English better than they do! HA! So there!

As for the 223XR, XR stands for "10Ring" as in "THE 10RING" as in the worlds most exlusive club, as in US.

We here in The 10Ring have designed this exceptional cartridge as a group, which means that IT CANT BE PATENTED! HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! BUT IT HAS OUR NAME, and it is ALL over the internet, a matter of record, made public for all to see... complete with dates, spec's, everything... The 10Ring gets credit for this one, and that is something no one can ever take away from us. The Boz boys tried to keep the Boz for LAW ENFORCEMENT ONLY!! Welllllllllllllllll.... i guess they can just KISS OUR NICE TIGHT BUTTS on THAT one!!! HAHAHAHA!!!

The 223XR is just a silly little sabot away. I am planning on getting with my CAD/CAM guy any day now, but just have been too busy lately. I was hoping there was already a well designed sabot out there so that we didnt have to redesign the wheel on this one, especially since it's so simple. Looks like we will have to have some sabots specially made... oh well, no biggie... just takes a little time, money, and know-how... The sabot is already designed.



------------------
The only thing that should come between you, and any gun... is comfort... Get Agrip!

Your first and best weapon and/or tool is your mind.

Warning, anything I write is intended to manipulate you into using your mind.

[Kaliburz]

Poochg,

The truth, I don't shoot a 10mm, yet . I shoot 40 *&*, 45ACP, 38 Super, 357 Sig, 223 Rem, 30-06, 30-30, 38 Special, 22 WMR & 22LR. And yes, I'm interested in the Boz...or something with it's ballistics or exceeds it's ballistics.

And to all,

I wanted to to some cross posting here. Below is a link to AR15.com where a nice talk on the Boz started. Just an FYI. I'll put a post there to this one topic. Sorry I haven't replied ...it's been a while since I've been online....or rememberd to check to see any new posts here.....How about this idea....40 Super case necked to .223"..if it hasn't been discussed already....
http://forums.ar15.com/Forum5/HTML/001996.html

Enjoy.

Kaliburz
on:
AK-47.net
AR15.com
Glocktalk.com

[Rusty Phillips]

ignoring sabots for the sake of discussion.....

that comment on ar15.com "about a short 22BR being usefull for converting 45acp pistols to a "BOZ" style round" got me thinking

would it be better to start out with a pistol case & neck it down, or start with a necked down rifle cartridge & shorten it?

the 7.62x39 (russian) rim is not very much larger than the 10mm

the 22PPC is a shortened knecked down 7.62x39

the 22 Waldog is a shorter (1.375") 22PPC run through a shortened 22/250 die.

How bout an even shorter verion of the 22 Waldog for use in the G20?

perhaps form it in an 22/250 improved die (the Shannon version shoulder is .443" dia & 35degree)....

cut it off with as short a neck as is possible....

if needed lathe off part of the rim (it is 0.020 larger than a 10mm rim) or open up the breechface slightly

there you go - a "22Waldog-250Improved-Short"

I think .223XR is a little more catchy though.

anyone up for a .172" version?

------------------
want to advertise on Glocktalk? click here http://glocktalk.com/adspots.shtml



[This message has been edited by Rusty Phillips (edited 06-26-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Rusty Phillips (edited 06-26-2000).]

[poochg]

Rusty,

Apparently the 10mm case is able to hold the pressure more then the Glock 20 that was used in the Boz test.....I am told..that it was beat up by the Boz and then knecked down 10mm case held up just fine....so whats the point of the rifle cartridge, its really not needed is it? The thicker base would only serve to limit powder capacity, all lengths being equal to 10mm, which might limit some powder choices.....

What would gain in the Boz to use a rifle case? We already have the 9 X 25 case that is part way down to a 223 already, no more hassle with it and its not that far down from 9mm to 30 caliber for the Sabots....(When Mr. T*** ever starts shipping them)

So T***.....w***znew with the sabots?

[Kaliburz]

poochg,

It's just a starting point I would say. If you saw the last post there by "benchjewler" on 6/28, all he needs is to have Kurt cut 22BR dies and have a barrel made and start resizing 22BR brass ----> 22BRS.
As Rusty said, they're working on one for a 45. The 308 case, which was the parent of the 22BR, is the parent of the 22 BRS (Bench Rest Short)as it's being called.
I'm not an expert on this stuff. But the only way to find out how much case capacity it'll have is for someone to make the brass and do that "water test" as I think I heard to find out the volume.
The case is strong, and for experimenting, you want that, at least that's what I would want personally. Later, if this round catches on, and testing shows that the case pressues are lower/significatly lower then what the parent case can handle, the case can be redesigned, increasing volume. At that point, someone could ask Starline or another brass maker to mass produce it. But in the testing phase....... This stuff takes time and $$$$$$.
It took time to for us to find out the world was round, and it took time for us to get to the moon, one small step at a time. It'll take time to get the 22BRS tested. (The Boz went through a lot of testing....those damn Brits spent lots of pounds on it I bet.)

Here's a dumb thought....I think it's dumb, but..... Any one think of making a Boz case duplicate, except for the caliber? Make it into a .17 caliber (.172"). A little small....

Kaliburz

[Tazz10m]

Still trying to find the right company to make the sabots, and i am also still fine tuning the sabot design before i call them. If i do it right i believe we can actually get some fairly decent accuracy out of it.

------------------
The only thing that should come between you, and any gun... is comfort... Get Agrip!

Your first and best weapon and/or tool is your mind.

Warning, anything I write is intended to manipulate you into using your mind.

[Tamara]

Chatting with Lendringser today he brought up some good, if somewhat killjoy, points. Will a saboted round have enough spin to stabilize out of a pistol? For defense use, you gotta worry about the discarded sabot bits. They'll definitely put an eye out inside 7 yards. Just some points that may or may not have already been considered...

------------------
Tamara's House of Weapons: If we can't kill it, it's immortal.
10 Ring #2910, Wheelhouse #6254455, Club .40*&*, Top Guns *.357sig* club, Big Dawg #447
10mm: It's not the size of the Dawg in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog!

[Tazz10m]

The spin looks to be about perfect, but we will of course have to test it, and the sabot is designed to hold together and "parachute" away allowing the bullet to continue forward without effecting flight. I'm not sure it would be ideal as a hostage rescue round, and as for using it as a general purpose personal defense round, i would rather have a heavier bigger mushrooming round...

Now on the other hand as a "Special Purpose" round for special vermin and other "recreational" uses, i think it has LOTS of potential...

One more REALLY cool thing... you could also alternate rounds with this little set up.... oooooooooo....

------------------
The only thing that should come between you, and any gun... is comfort... Get Agrip!

Your first and best weapon and/or tool is your mind.

Warning, anything I write is intended to manipulate you into using your mind.

[Kaliburz]

T***,

When they're ready, I'd like to purchase some. May not have a 10mm, yet, but I guess I can experiment in my......40

Kaliburz

[Shred]

There's no way a real US patent on the .224 BOZ cartridge is going to stand up (CD probably cheaped out and filed for a Design patent, which covers the _exact_ design, but change an angle or two and you're scot-free). That would be good enough for them-- with that patent they can control BOZ ammo and barrel manufacturers. Good for us too, we can do what we want.

-Shred (played with a .224 BOZ once)

[Kaliburz]

Shred,

Intersting.....very interesting. Gonna have to do more research.

You played with one!!! Lucky Dog. How much "playing"....got to shoot it or just look at it? Come on, let us know.....

Kaliburz

[poochg]

double tap but I held off on the mozenbeek!

[This message has been edited by poochg (edited 07-17-2000).]

[poochg]

Originally posted by Shred:
There's no way a real US patent on the .224 BOZ cartridge is going to stand up (CD probably cheaped out and filed for a Design patent, which covers the _exact_ design, but change an angle or two and you're scot-free). That would be good enough for them-- with that patent they can control BOZ ammo and barrel manufacturers. Good for us too, we can do what we want.

-Shred (played with a .224 BOZ once)

First of all I'm jealous.....Now I want to know every little detail.......

Well, tell us man......was it the out of the 1911, the Glock the mp5, did you just play with the ammo, like juggling it, what kind of play, where were you, can I go there? (you know stuff like that man) If the Glock, how was it modified?

[Shred]

Well, all I got to do was fiddle with the pistol (a modified 6" STI Hunter-- rebarreled and had the funky Briley front-end), and some of the brass/loaded rounds. At that time there were only about a dozen or so loaded rounds in the country, so I didn't get to shoot any . Customs had decided that the reloading dies were some sort of barrel and weren't letting them in.

I did talk to somebody that had shot it and he said recoil was pretty light (a .22 cal bull-barrel will do that)

The round looks even wierder and stubbier in person.

- Shred