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Old 05-23-2000, 10:19   #21
Tazz10m
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"Progress" is being made... slow but sure... nothing to speak of yet though... The 10 Ring

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Warning, anything I write is intended to manipulate you into using your mind.
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Old 05-26-2000, 22:43   #22
Tamara
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Re: sabots

Are we looking for some kind of long range accuracy? If so, due to the phenomenon known as "tip-off", sabots probably aren't the way to go.

If, on the other hand, all we're seeking is screaming 25yd hole-poking velocity, then sabots would be the hot ticket for quick & dirty load development...

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Old 05-27-2000, 04:12   #23
Rusty Phillips
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1st of all - check this out http://www.leitner-wise.com/lw782sx24.html

looks like a 10mm or 45 case necked to 30 cal.

(their site was down sat. am - keep checking them)

2nd of all - instead of having a custom barrel made for your first prototype - why not get a cheap POS CZ 52 chambered in 7.62x25mm?

load it up with saboted 22's (i think theyd have to be short bullets - a 55-62 grain .224 is looong!!!)

and blast away

I think you could buy a complete CZ52 for less than the cost of one custom barrel for your Glock

you might know someone who already has one.

you might not even need the sabots & 22 bullets - according to Chuck Karwan - the 7.62x25mm already knifes thru level 3A Kevlar like it is butter - a high speed 30 cal might be just the ticket

How bout a 7.62x25mm barrel for the G20?

will a 7.62x25mm cartridge fit in a G20 magazine? COAL on the 7.62 is 1.36" - Rim dia is 0.390" COAL on the 10mm is 1.26" - Rim dia is 0.424"

my G20 mag will barely hold in an empty mauser case - the lips are tight enuf.

dont know about the length though

if it could be done - 7.62 Mauser ammo is available pretty cheaply, and with a 22 sabot would be fun to play with


[This message has been edited by Rusty Phillips (edited 05-27-2000).]
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Old 05-27-2000, 07:20   #24
poochg
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Yea, I have been waiting for Leitner to release the round to no avial. If it comes out, I for one intend to neck it down to .223! The lead guy at Leitner apparantly worked on the Boz project with those gun control Brits and CD has nothing good to say about Leitner, says they have no insurance flying by the seat of their pants. My question is does Leitner believe in the RKBA, cause CD sure as hell does not!!!

Tamara, Can I have both...(smile) I would like at least decent enough off hand accuracy to pop some varmits with a 6 or 7" barrel and spring change out of my G20 at ohhh at least 75 to 100 yds. This would make such a trail Gun, a super 22 and a 10mm, the woods would be safe again....and it could all be concealed!

I see nothing wrong with having the means to even the playing field when bad guys dress in kevlar suits, its just not common and scares the government types. Thats just not my main goal, I'm a sportsman first!

I prefer the 10mm case, it has more capacity and was designed for higher working pressures. Decent 223 velocities could be acheived out of the 7.62 X 25 Tokerav. I would consider Leitners case in either caliber 30 or 223 but we dont have it yet! Barrels could be made in the 30 cal from Bar Stow.

Soooo right now......all our hopes and dreams rest on the shoulders of our leader, Tazz the industrialist/inventor/craftsmen, who is very close to cracking this thing with sabots. Soon I look forward to little boxes of 10mm to 223 plastic sabots showing up on my doorstep, in designer colors no less!

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Old 05-27-2000, 10:14   #25
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that link to JD Components is pretty informative

http://jdc.family-biz.com/loadinfo/3...30carbine.html

a 30 carbine w/12.2 grains of AA#9 can push a 55 grain saboted bullet to 2400+ fps out of a 9 inch barrel????

that beats the BOZ doesnt it?

of course winchester says the regular 110 grain carbine bullet does 1790 fps / 783 foot lbs out of a 10 inch barrel - so is that really all that impressive?

for comparison - 10mm - 17.5 grains AA#9 w/135 grain bullet give 1507 fps/680 ft lbs (Hndldrs Dgst 1996)

assuming you dont loose too much capacity when you neck it down you ought to be able to get at least 12 grains into your new case



[This message has been edited by Rusty Phillips (edited 05-27-2000).]
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Old 05-27-2000, 11:16   #26
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Sabots or not, I'm quite sure the 223XR (whatever) is going to require faster powder then #9 also I think the limitation is the gun and beating it up to much, not the case capacity, that we have!

Now their is a gun I donít have, a 30 carbine! I sure wish the DCM would include these babies in the program. I like the idea of the gov. selling you a gun. Can they really take it away later, when the entire program is civilian marksmanship....isnít that the militia, doesnít that just trump any future cards saying what is the militia and are you one??? (rhetorical question)


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Old 05-27-2000, 15:58   #27
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The idea of necking down the cartridge has become an idea that is almost all the way down the toilet now. The .357 Sig has become a cartridge i will NEVER own now... Reason: The .357 Sig headspaces on the rim rather than the shoulder... this is not a good because it is causing problems with the shoulder giving way and making it so that the rim no longer contacts the barrel for headspacing. This may not be so much a problem for the first time a round is put up the pipe and fired, but, if the round is taken out and put back in (especially numerous times) there is a possiblilty of KA BOOM!!!!!

So... the only way to go with a necked down cartridge is to have it headspace on the shoulder... Also, i would hate to have the BOZ people give us a bunch of crap about stealing their idea... much as i think they can all kiss my nice tight BUTT!!! Police ONLY my BUTT!!! Tell 'em to call me i will tell them to their faces!

As for the long range use of the 223XR, we will just have to see what happens through experimentation. Poochg is right about the fast burning powder... we need to use a fast burning powder to control the destabilizing effect of the barrel blast after the saboted round leaves the barrel... but, i believe that if the sabot is designed right that will be kept to a minimum and long range accuracy will be improved. Look at the saboted shotgun slug rounds, they seem to be doing pretty good in the accuracy department. Also, let's all try to remember that this is a short range, high velocity, pistol/carbine round for "sporting/plinking" "PC" type purposes... The 10 RingThe 10 RingThe 10 Ring gag... choke... retch...

...Anyway... the idea is to make the most inexpensive .223 round to spit out of a G20 platform and still keep it "effective"... preferably without a barrel change...

The bad guys can wear all the body armor they want... i aim for the head anyway... The 10 Ring

Also, as for the length of the 55 grn .223, a 200 grain pill is already shoved in the case about .375 so, that gives us a bit of room to work with seeing the fact that we are working with a much lighter bullet and can potentially shape the sabot in such a way as to maximize the powder capacity and still contain the .223 bullet.

Bottom line, we are going to have to play... ooops, i mean experiment with it a bit before we find the right combination. The key is going to be the sabot design though.

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Your first and best weapon and/or tool is your mind.

Warning, anything I write is intended to manipulate you into using your mind.
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Old 05-27-2000, 17:09   #28
poochg
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Tazz, headspacing aside, bullet set back can occur with straight wall cases just as easily as bottlenecks!

If I am lucky enough to get a 10mm case necked down to 223, I plan on roll crimping in the cannelure as I do in my AR. (no bullet set back their)

IMHO, a headspace on the shoulder is better, irrespective of this, I would love to shoot 223 points out of my G20 without a barrel change, so you go Tazz, you make those sabots happen.

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Old 05-27-2000, 17:34   #29
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For those who are just after velocity, have a look at:
http://www.rbcd.net/

They claim a 77gr 10mm at 2400 fps. I'll be talking to them tuesday for more information and to place an order. I'll get back to y'all if I find anything special.
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Old 05-27-2000, 18:58   #30
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Poochg, bullet setback is also a SERIOUS consern with the .357 Sig and the .400 Corbon, and, even some factory ammo has been having problems with this issue. Checking ALL your ammo of these calibers to make sure the bullets are tight and proper is IMHO imperative.

But... this is not what i am refering to with the issue of the headspacing on the rim. What i am talking about is the shoulder "giving out" and "pushing in" shortening the OAL of the case... preventing the rim from headspacing properly.

I agree, headspacing on the shoulder is much better. I dont know why these cartridges werent designed to headspace on the shoulder.

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The only thing that should come between you, and any gun... is comfort... Get Agrip!

Your first and best weapon and/or tool is your mind.

Warning, anything I write is intended to manipulate you into using your mind.
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Old 05-27-2000, 19:44   #31
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Tazz-
The .357Sig will headspace on either the case mouth or the shoulder - whichever first stops its forward motion. So there should be no problem roll crimping the [cannelured] bullet and relying on the shoulder for headspace. Just set up the die to avoid setting the shoulder back too far - which you'd want to do anyway.

"""""""""""""

Setback is less a problem with straightwalled cases. Any setback must force the bullet to engage more of the case, which is probably a hair smaller than the bullet. This is not so with necked cartridges.

I like the idea of a sabot for another reason - high velocity without high pressure. With the sabot, the projectile has full 10mm diameter, but weighs only about 60gr. So moderate pressure, acting on the full diameter, makes enough force to really accellerate that light projectile. If you go to max case pressure, so much the faster.

[This message has been edited by Fredalso (edited 05-28-2000).]
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Old 06-08-2000, 17:25   #32
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Good point Fredalso!

Speaking of setback, how much are these sabots going to set us back, Tazz?

I found this thread trying to sneak away, so I rescued it from the 10mm trash heap!

Or are we all done here?

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Old 06-09-2000, 14:55   #33
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I dont know, try sticking a fork in it... The 10 Ring

Poochg, just now responding... where ya been?

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The only thing that should come between you, and any gun... is comfort... Get Agrip!

Your first and best weapon and/or tool is your mind.

Warning, anything I write is intended to manipulate you into using your mind.
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Old 06-09-2000, 16:31   #34
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Tazz, I've been sitting here by my reloading bench this hole time! I got 500 new 10mm cases all primed up and I'm ready to break into one of my ammo cans from IMI filled with 223 55grn tips, got my powder dry, got my 10mm dies all set up in the press, I just need some 10mm/223 sabots. Whatís the word, are you gonna be able to make it happen?

Like to start off with say 2,000. Man I am getting tempted to buy a Taurus raging hornet while I'm sitting here waiting, but then I would have to carry two hog legs into the back country.

Those damn Limeys are reading our posts, Civil Defense, has got a lock on this deal. I've exchanged emails with them, they said they have read the posts. There laughing at us they say there is no way, your gonna pull this off! They are laughing at Lietner too, they say Lietner is operating on a shoestring with no insurance and they wont make it either. Your reputation is on the line here Tazz, in fact you represent the American Gun industry now, these englishmen who have given up their rights to personal firearms say they have exclusive rights to this deal, they say this 223XR is never to be.

Just think how it will feel when your being interviewed by Guns & Ammo about the new cartridge you designed, think of all the free publicity Agrip will get.....forget the Kayaks and seals man, it will be yachts, beluga caviar and the south seas for you!

While Ted Nugent is blasting warthogs, you will be popping gazelles and dingos at 200 yards off hand with your 223XR!

By the way, have you made any progress?


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Old 06-10-2000, 20:25   #35
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Hummmmmmm......

Well, just an FYI...but you all probably knew of this site any how.
www.calweb.com/~haas/ammoguide/runammo.html

It's a java program that list the case specs of rounds, one being the Boz...... and others.

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Old 06-10-2000, 20:49   #36
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No I didn't, thank you, thats a quick usefull site. Are you interested in the boz, do you shoot 10mm?

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Old 06-11-2000, 13:49   #37
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Great post Poochg! Hahahahaha!! Toooo funny!! The 10 RingThe 10 RingThe 10 Ring

The bloody Limies have nothin on us Americans! We even speak English better than they do! HA! So there!

As for the 223XR, XR stands for "10Ring" as in "THE 10RING" as in the worlds most exlusive club, as in US.

We here in The 10Ring have designed this exceptional cartridge as a group, which means that IT CANT BE PATENTED! HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! BUT IT HAS OUR NAME, and it is ALL over the internet, a matter of record, made public for all to see... complete with dates, spec's, everything... The 10Ring gets credit for this one, and that is something no one can ever take away from us. The Boz boys tried to keep the Boz for LAW ENFORCEMENT ONLY!! Welllllllllllllllll.... i guess they can just KISS OUR NICE TIGHT BUTTS on THAT one!!! HAHAHAHA!!!

The 223XR is just a silly little sabot away. I am planning on getting with my CAD/CAM guy any day now, but just have been too busy lately. I was hoping there was already a well designed sabot out there so that we didnt have to redesign the wheel on this one, especially since it's so simple. Looks like we will have to have some sabots specially made... oh well, no biggie... just takes a little time, money, and know-how... The sabot is already designed.

The 10 Ring

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The only thing that should come between you, and any gun... is comfort... Get Agrip!

Your first and best weapon and/or tool is your mind.

Warning, anything I write is intended to manipulate you into using your mind.
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Old 06-25-2000, 20:37   #38
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Poochg,

The truth, I don't shoot a 10mm, yet The 10 Ring. I shoot 40 *&*, 45ACP, 38 Super, 357 Sig, 223 Rem, 30-06, 30-30, 38 Special, 22 WMR & 22LR. And yes, I'm interested in the Boz...or something with it's ballistics or exceeds it's ballistics.

And to all,

I wanted to to some cross posting here. Below is a link to AR15.com where a nice talk on the Boz started. Just an FYI. I'll put a post there to this one topic. Sorry I haven't replied ...it's been a while since I've been online....or rememberd to check to see any new posts here.....How about this idea....40 Super case necked to .223"..if it hasn't been discussed already....
http://forums.ar15.com/Forum5/HTML/001996.html

Enjoy.

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on:
AK-47.net
AR15.com
Glocktalk.com
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Old 06-26-2000, 18:49   #39
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ignoring sabots for the sake of discussion.....

that comment on ar15.com "about a short 22BR being usefull for converting 45acp pistols to a "BOZ" style round" got me thinking

would it be better to start out with a pistol case & neck it down, or start with a necked down rifle cartridge & shorten it?

the 7.62x39 (russian) rim is not very much larger than the 10mm

the 22PPC is a shortened knecked down 7.62x39

the 22 Waldog is a shorter (1.375") 22PPC run through a shortened 22/250 die.

How bout an even shorter verion of the 22 Waldog for use in the G20?

perhaps form it in an 22/250 improved die (the Shannon version shoulder is .443" dia & 35degree)....

cut it off with as short a neck as is possible....

if needed lathe off part of the rim (it is 0.020 larger than a 10mm rim) or open up the breechface slightly

there you go - a "22Waldog-250Improved-Short"

I think .223XR is a little more catchy though.

anyone up for a .172" version?

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[This message has been edited by Rusty Phillips (edited 06-26-2000).]

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Old 06-26-2000, 21:19   #40
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Rusty,

Apparently the 10mm case is able to hold the pressure more then the Glock 20 that was used in the Boz test.....I am told..that it was beat up by the Boz and then knecked down 10mm case held up just fine....so whats the point of the rifle cartridge, its really not needed is it? The thicker base would only serve to limit powder capacity, all lengths being equal to 10mm, which might limit some powder choices.....

What would gain in the Boz to use a rifle case? We already have the 9 X 25 case that is part way down to a 223 already, no more hassle with it and its not that far down from 9mm to 30 caliber for the Sabots....(When Mr. Tazz ever starts shipping them)

So Tazz.....wazzznew with the sabots?
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