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Old 12-20-2005, 16:08   #126
JackBurnham
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I have been wondering how the UK could become so messed up. But reading these posts from Englishmen enlightens me.

How can you guys endorse these politics by saying it's your way?

Some facts:

Since guns were banned, gun violence has risen sharply (Shouldn't it be zero now?)

OC spray is illegal (although it does no permantent damage). Even carrying a large flashlight or a heavy bunch of keys can be be construed as an "offensive weapon". Carrying a pocket knife will get you in jail for 5 years or more.

Women are therefore advised not to resist a rapist.

Self defence is illegal, only running away is allowed. There are numerous documented cases including:

- A woman being convicted because she put barb wire on her property and a burglar hurt himself.
- An elderly woman being convicted because she scared off a burglar with a replica gun.

So basically it's like Christmas for the perps, who can do as they please. They can break into a home and don't have to worry if the homeowner is there. For the unlikely event of being caught, they can be sure to only get a slap on the wrist from a court which thinks uncorrigible felons can be rehabilitated.

As violence is rocketing upwards, the sheep are living in fear and therefore readily accept that their rights are being revoked by the government. I don't only mean the right to keep arms. I refer to obscenities like searches of houses without a warrant, video surveillance everythere (which does no good), general eavesdropping and wiretapping of ALL phone lines and Internet communication, curfews etc. Sounds like sci-fi, but the majority of these measures is already in place or at least discussed.

You don't have to be a rocket scientist to realize where this is leading. But one has to be a moron not to. Maybe you should read 1984 from George Orwell, who's real name was George BLAIR. Subtle irony here, just like your prime minister Tony Blair.

But perhaps I shouldn't expect a monarchy's subjects to value things like independence and responsibilty for oneself .

Feel free to bash me, I just believe that law abiding men and women should have the right to own and carry firearms and to defend themselves against assaults.
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Old 12-20-2005, 16:36   #127
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Dear Jack Burnham,


You are, quite simply, wrong. Horribly, horribly wrong.

Yes gun crime has risen. And yes, keys can be seen as an offensive weapon. As can a rubber chicken, a lemon, or indeed a well seasoned pork joint if it is being carried with the INTENT of being used as a weapon.

Carrying a knife will not get you in jail for 5 years, I carry a knife on me almost every day, and I am quite within the bounds of the law when doing so. In England, we are not allowed to carry a locking knife, or a fixed blade without good reason to do so (self defence not being such a reason). We can, however, carry a sub-3 inch, folding slipjoint as and when we wish. So, I'd be grateful if you could point me in the direction of this seemingly mandatory term of 5 years, or if one should be so misfortunate, even more? At least take the effort to gather knowledge on the subject before attempting to be condescending.

And thankyou, sir, for taking the time to truly appreciate our judicial system, law, and law enforcement. Truly, the posting of an idiot. We do have a right to self defence, using reasonable force. Shooting someone who stole your hat does not constitute reasonable force. But, of course, you have your mighty "documented cases", so clearly I am wasting my time and should merely lay down now on my pitiful English soil and await my slow, liberty lacking death.

Not advised to resist a rapist? I am assuming the person from whom you heard this advice was not in a state known as "sober". I refer you back to "reasonable force", which in the case of rape, goes a long way.
To paint a picture of my country being a rampant haven for criminals is rich.

As for your reference to 1984, that is not ironic.

But hold on. I think that (perhaps) after trawling through such a deformed, sickly post as yours, I feel that I have seen the light. Yes, I must own a gun. That will solve all these make-believe problems, and they shall vanish into thin, free, richeous American air. Right. How does not owning firearms in any way indicate we have any less respect for our independence and individual responsibility?

But please. Come to England. Break into our houses. No really, go on. I'm sure the police won't mind, nor will the owner of the property. You'd look nice in a jail cell.

I can only hope that this post has been as arrogant, uninformed and depressing as yours was.

Kindest regards,
Tempest
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Old 12-21-2005, 12:03   #128
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Dear Tempest UK,

Quote:
Originally posted by Tempest UK
Carrying a knife will not get you in jail for 5 years,
You're right, it's only 4 years, but I'm sure that'll change.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/e...re/3586978.stm
And I do mean a fixed blade or folder - that's a knife. For opening letters, I have a letter opener. I need to cut wood for example. But thanks for informing me that you may actually carry a 2.5" toothpick or similar.

Quote:
Originally posted by Tempest UK

But please. Come to England. Break into our houses. No really, go on. I'm sure the police won't mind, nor will the owner of the property. You'd look nice in a jail cell.
Indicating that I might break into a house only reflects the rhetorical state of emergency you're in.

Instead of fabricating
Quote:
Originally posted by Tempest UK
arrogant, uninformed and depressing
posts you might consider trying to explain with reasonable arguments, why law abiding citizens shouldn't be allowed to possess guns for sport shooting, self defence, collecting or whatever lawful purpose that comes to mind.

Are you so terribly afraid of an inanimate object or of your fellow citizens, who obey laws by the letter?

Please take a look at nearby Switzerland, that should be possible even in case you're a shortsighted person (which I don't believe).
In Switzerland, citizens may buy as many firearms as they please, including (with a special permit) fully automatic weapons. And the militiamen (ordinary men who once were in the army) have to keep their state-issued assault rifle along with .223 ammunition at home. We're talking here about half a million FA rifles that easily penetrate most body armour. And guess what: There are WAY less violent crimes, gun crimes and murders in Switzerland than on your disarmed island. There are only two possible explanations:
a) Guns are not bad and should therefore be allowed for law abiding citizens
b) the Swiss are a whole lot more peacable, reasonable and responsible than Englishmen.
Feel free to choose an answer.
And kindly explain to a slow-witted fellow like me why you don't think your government can trust you with guns, or an evil OC spray.

Best regards,
JackBurnham
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Old 12-21-2005, 12:26   #129
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First off, I'm anything but "afraid" of guns. I have a keen interest in firearms and always have, and am in the process of applying for a shotgun certificate.

As for knives, for cutting, may I suggest an axe? And why exactly would you feel the urge to cut some wood walking down the street? If it's for your job, then we can carry a locking knife, fixed blade etc for that purpose just the same as you could, and know we are well within our rights to do so. Whenever I believe I have a need to do so, I will carry a locking knife on me, but in all other cases a SAK or my Spyderco UKPK is more than enough for everyday tasks.
Being stopped by a PC and being found to have a locking knife on you will not result in said PC throwing you in jail fo 4/5/100 years. Having been in this situation myself, I am fairly sure of this, as this is how I came to be familiar withthe specific knife law regarding the carrying of locking blades. However, if you go about stabbing people with a knife, (a la the linked BBC article) then a hefty jail term is wholly appropriate.

Rhetorical state of emergency? That is of course what I indicated by poking at your unfounded and uninformed claims.
Why shouldn't we be allowed to posses firearms for sport shooting? Ahem...we are. Why shouldn't we be allowed to collect them? Because I'd say that 90% of our population has no desire whatsoever to do so. Again I raise the issue of culture, interests will vary from country to country - you in America may find collecting firearms attractive, yet most people here would not. It isn't a problem.

The Swiss. I'd say they are just naturally more "peaceful" than the Englih. Yet far, far more so than you Americans. Your point is somewhat hypocritical. Find another. In addition, where, exactly, did I state, or otherwise imply that guns were "bad"? They are not, and whenever a gun related crime arises for discussion here, I will be the first person to challenge the view that guns are to blame. The gun is the method of murder, the man is the maker.

Maybe our government doesn't "allow" us guns because they are just pure damn evil. Maybe. Maybe they put too muh faith in our law enforcement. Perhaps. But you and I both know that is a question better directed to our members of parliament than I.

More to the point: do we, the lowly Englishmen, need guns or pepper spray?

Kindest regards,
Tempest
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Old 12-21-2005, 12:47   #130
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tempest UK
More to the point: do we, the lowly Englishmen, need guns or pepper spray?
Not you put your foot in it. We may argue whether you need guns. Your women would surely need some OC spray, or are they supposed to fight off a 200 pounds felon with their bare hands?

But that's not the question. One may argue you that you don't need:
- golden watches
- cars which go more than 70 mph (or whatever is allowed in your country)
- a property larger than xxx acres
or even
- private ownership of means of production

But in a free country like ours, WE decide what we need. And not the government. Actually, I don't need a lot of the things that I own. But should I be forbidden to buy them because some politician who thinks he's on the moral high grounds says I have no need? Hell, NO.

Thanks again for informing me that you may use (hand)guns for sports shooting. That's a new one for me.

And as one member's sig reads: "It's not the bill of needs, it's the Bill of Rights"

Best regards,
JackBurnham
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Old 12-21-2005, 13:01   #131
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JackBurnham,

It's a good point you raise, and to be honest I'm not sure where I stand on the issue of OC spray.

However, we both live in a free country. And you'll find your politicians do indeed take the moral high ground and dictate what you can and cannot own.

I'm sorry to inform you that, to the best of my knowledge, handguns are not allowed for sport shooting. This is one area in which I will outright say that I do not support our government's stance. Whilst I don't think the answer should be to totally legalise all firearms to anyone displaying a passing interest in owning one in order to greater facilitate sport shooting, I think current legislation should be adapted to allow a wider range of shooting sports, as it is a healthy and rewarding activity that an be enjoyed in total safety. In that respect, we a pretty much limited to shotguns and rifles after the proper documentation is received.

Kindest regards,
Tempest

Last edited by Tempest UK; 12-21-2005 at 13:09..
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Old 12-21-2005, 13:32   #132
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Alright, your words now seem halfway reasonable to me.
Our views are not as far away as I have previously thought. If you added some tiny things to your last post we could even agree. Armed self defence when reasonable and neccessary as well as guns for anyone with a lawful interest in them come to my mind. But for starters, it's more than fair enough.

I'm glad you don't completely approve with your governments position on this issue. Having an interest in firearms and GlockTalk, you are about the only one left in the UK who might support gun rights.

With all the best wishes for your liberty,
JackBurnham
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Old 12-21-2005, 13:45   #133
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Good to see we can see eye to eye ;f

It's not the concept of using firearms for self defence (or anything else) that I don't agree with, only when it is applied to my country in that state that it is currently in. At the moment, drastic changes to our firearms policies aren't the answer. A few years down the line, maybe, who knows. A slow, controlled introduction to the use of firearms for self defence could work, but to do so public opinion would need to change a great deal, as many people simply couldn't justify carrying a firearm for self defence. And, at times, this includes myself.

If fate had had me born in the USA, you could quite surely find me owning a good few firearms (Glock 21 being the object of my affection here )and a CCW. In England though, at this time we're not ready for such changes. Changes to allow shooting sports, however, we are every bit ready for, and I wish we could be afforded that, but thanks to Blair we are not.

Kindest regards,
Tempest
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Old 12-26-2005, 12:25   #134
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Since UK firearm laws outlawing handguns were introduced in 1997, gun crime has more than doubled.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2640817.stm

I suppose that is a "coincidence", isn't it? ;Q
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Old 12-29-2005, 13:18   #135
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tempest UK
Dear Friends,

...
We are two countries that came into being quite differently, and sadly a great many people have still not realised this.
...

Kindest regards,
Tempest
Tempest, according to the history of England and Great Britian as I learned it, the freedoms evolved as a result of the yeomen and their long bows being able to take out obnoxious noblemen, noblemen and their power being able to tell the king off (Magna Carta), and the king being able to use the yeomen and nobles as necessary to keep his power (YES, HUGELY SIMPLIFIED.) The point being that British freedoms were developed because people had weapons, and that was how British development was different than that in Europe.

When the gun came in, and the longbowmen went out, the commoners (yeomen) started losing their rights. And that was something our founding fathers saw, and was a major reason for the second amendment. To keep government in line as well as self protection.

As for the loss of freedom issue, where you don't see it, we see something else. FOR EXAMPLE: Your law allows the use of REASONABLE force in self defense. We see that as a loss of freedom, because reasonable is decided by someone after the fact who wasn't there. So a woman who protected herself against a rapist by spraying him with oven cleaner instead of the window cleaner five steps further can be prosecuted. That to us is a HUGE, HUGE loss of freedom.

Another example: Something bought with the INTENT to use it for self-protection. To us, that is the government telling us what to think, and that we can't think about self protection of what to do if something happens. Again a HUGE loss of freedom, as someone is deciding not only what you did, but what you thought, and making it a crime.

Now these examples may be overboard to you, but follow me for a minute. We start out with guns are bad, then restrict the guns, then register the guns, the outlaw the guns, then make self-protection iffy, then make other weapons (knives)bad, then etc. We see a trend, and it's one that scares us, because we see the start of it here. And it is a historical trend that has been repeated over and over.

Maybe you don't see it that way, but we do. So it's not really not "bashing" the British, (at least not too much ), it's trying to point out a frightening trend, and the British are the ones following that trend right now. So they're the current example available.

A couple more points. You said that most people agreed with the bans. But did they? And if they did, did they have full information? In other words, when the automatic weapons slaughter happened, was it just that that was broadcast, like our media here? Or was there some people asking what would have happened if some law abiding people with guns had been there? Have you even asked yourself that question?

I think that there are two quotes that fit the situation. The first is Lincoln, "You can fool most of the people some of the time."

The second quote is "Tell a big enough lie, often enough, and it will be believed." Goebbels. (Sorry to bring up that ++++, but even a ++++ gets it right once in a while.)

And that's the other point. We think that you've been pounded on so long that you're conditioned in that point of view. And that scares us even worse. You didn't used to be a disarmed society, as we read history (and all your murder mysteries;f ). And now you say that you haven't been. That is true, in that it was never as pervasive, but it was there, and people could protect themselves.

As far as feeling that the English are "wimps", we don't. Any people who can produce four men who are willing to jump on and smother a bomb with their own bodies, as those four did on that subway, may produce some wimps, but it also produces MEN. So here's to TommyT and all the others (here and there) who are willing to put it on the line. ;Y And may the MMQB (Monday Morning QuarterBacks) rot in you know where.

Hawk
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Old 12-29-2005, 13:58   #136
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Brown Hawk,


Whilst you make a good point of our origins, the use of longbows then is not nearly as recent as the emergence of the United States - just because we used weapons then does not mean we have to latch on to that and preserve it many hundreds of years down the line.

Also, a point about "securing our freedoms" through the use of weapons that I, and a great many others I know of think the Americans have taken "wrongly" (for lack of a better word)is that freedoms may be won with weapons, but the weapons were only there as a requirement of the conflict of that time. After a war or a battle has been won, and the rights of whatever body of people have been secured, those people are in peace; they can put down their arms and enjoy the same rights. So we developed our freedoms with weapons, but that doesn't mean that we now STILL need weapons to continue those freedoms.

Loss of freedom: you have pretty much summed it up there, we see it differently. "Reasonable force" has recently been a hot topic for debate within British politics, with many calling for a clearer definition (which I would be all for). But this seems to somehow give the impression that, in Britain, whenever someone defends themselves, they will be prosecuted and the criminal lives happily ever after. It's simply not true. A lot of people on these forums also seem to be getting the impresion that our country is a haven for criminals, which again is simply not true (far less true of Britain than of the USA).

I believe most people did agree with the bans, and whilst there were obviosly those who held firearms (it was generally for target/sport shooting, not SD) who opposed the ban, most did not. Again, our countries were and are very different - even before the bans, guns were far less a part of our culture than in the US, so even when we had the choice to own firearms, the majority of us did not.

Much of the rest of what you say, I simply disagree with; it is just a matter of opinion.

The trend itself is frightening; but I couldn't care less about the way it has outlawed guns, except in the cases of sport shooting I mentioned earlier. I collect knives, and the negativity towards them in the media and the government is discomforting. I also enjoy airsoft, and frequently attend games, and as such I bitterly opposed the replica weapon ban, but to no avail. I hope this illustrates that it is not a case of me not caring about my rights, or what the government dictates I should do, but simply that in the case of guns , I do not believe we should have the same rights as you do. In the case of airsoft, whilst I will continue to oppose the decision to ban them whenever I can - it got through parliament without ammendments, and I shall respect that. Whether you like it or not, that bill was passed under the wings of democracy, and I and other airsofters are in the (tiny) minority in our opposition to it.

"Tell a big enough lie, often enough, and it will be believed." Goebbels

I could equally apply this to you, and the constant repetition that you need guns to defend your rights, liberty, the life of yourself and your families from nasty nasty invading communism that there is no evidence of, and other such things. It doesn't make it true, just as it doesn't when applied to us.

Kindest regards,
Tempest
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Old 12-29-2005, 15:42   #137
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Tempest,

I wasn't trying to convince you, just trying to explain some of why we feel the way we do about your gun laws. After all, you are trying to explain yourselves to us. My point on the long bows is that the freedom of your country and mine evolved because of the ready availability of weapons caused the freedoms to evolve more peacefully. The peasants of Europe didn't, and much of their freedoms came through revolution. (Again a simplification.)

As for the weapons keeping us free, we go back to the founding fathers, who started the whole idea. It was their feeling that freedoms would be lost without constant vigilance. And the freedoms would be lost to their own government, not foreign invaders. As a nation, we still don't trust the government. Even most of our liberals don't when it comes to THEIR rights. (Ask Robert Kennedy Jr. about the propeller farm off the coast of his property.) They just think they know better than us how to spend our money.

Loss of freedom: yes, they were extreme examples, but I made them that way to make the point. And the point is WHO decides? I could be wrong here, but we look at a law and ask, "What would my worst enemy do with this law?" If I am reading you right, (and please correct me if I am not,) you ask "What would a reasonable person do with this law?" We don't trust govenrment to be reasonable, and we think that we have pretty good historical evidence to back it up. Including Lord Acton [sp?] and his "Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power tends to corrupt absolutely."

As far as defending ourselves from the invading commies, the Japanese, Germans and Soviets were worried about that according to their own documentation. Most of us aren't. It's more a matter of where will they stop if they take this away? The constant vigilance thing. If they don't get to the beach, they can't make a beachead. The banning of Airsoft is something we see as a taking away of freedom. It is hurting no one, it costs people who aren't involved nothing, and can be a lot of fun. But now a majority has decided it's bad, and a harmless minority is being oppressed. You may not agree with that specific interpertation, but you are fighting the ban.

You don't see weapons as necessary to protect your freedoms, and we do. I think the difference comes in the fact that Britian has long been a homogenous country, with people born there raised the same way with the same beliefs. Here, many people, many ideas, raised and taught differently. Some without the English respect for law, as their laws were harsh and unjust. Without respect for life, etc. So the self defense aspect is more readily visible here. Your police could remain unarmed as most criminals felt they would be treated right there, and both sides can "understand" each other. (Bad way to put it, but I'm not sure how else to put it.)

We don't see that the need of guns to defend freedom as a lie. Our history and other's would give good evidence for that. In fact, most of Britain's history seems to run counter to that of other nation's in this regard. Maybe it's the exception that proves the rule. ;f

On of my history teachers had a favorite story of WWII. A German officer and a Swiss officer were talking one day. The German says to the Swiss.

"We have you surrounded. If you upset us, we can invade you with an army that has twice as many men as you have people. What would you do then?"

And the Swiss replied, "We'd all shoot twice.";a

We're not going to agree, and that's fine. I am using this to try to understand your point of view, and explain ours. Probably, the best we can get to is that you're not wimps waiting to be used as dishrags, just different, and we're not paranoid gun nuts, just different. And not that different. After all, we still stand by each other when the SHTF.

Best wishes, (gotta be a little different )

Hawk
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Old 12-29-2005, 15:55   #138
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That's fine, you've given the best explanation in this thread so far

I've said it earlier in this thread, but should I ever decide to live in America (something I've given serious thought, can't accuse me of being against all things America )then I would exercise my right to bear arms, for some of the reasons you have pointed out. It's just that those reasons don't apply in the same way to England. You were reading me right, and yes, we do (generally) trust our government more than you might, hence why you can't apply the same reasoning to Britain that you do the US.

We'll just agree to disagree then, having now voiced our opinions (nice story by the way )
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Old 12-29-2005, 16:36   #139
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Tempest,

Agreeing to disagree is good.

But another question on the same topic. Does the influx of immigrants, legal and illegal, seem to be changing things? Over here we hear that they don't want to assimilate, which could change your society. Also, is the increase in gun crime related to that, or is the "normal" British criminal using guns more?

And yeah, there's a couple of assumptions there, which you are free to correct.

Best wishes

Hawk

P.S. Glad somebody appreciates it. The professor only told it about twenty times;Q. (But it did make his points.)

PPS Where's Bucks? Can't find it on the map.
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Old 12-30-2005, 07:24   #140
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I'm sure the increased immigration has had an impact on gun crime here, though even if the "high-ups" new this for sure, they would be far too PC to even suggest such a thing ;Q

I'm sure it's a similar situation in some circumstances in the US, but to even hint at immigration being a problem here will have you branded as a far-right extremist/racist. So when it comes to gun crime, such things rarely get proper consideration or investigation.

As for Bucks:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buckinghamshire
Even more information that you could possibly be interested in reading

Regards,
Tempest
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Old 12-30-2005, 13:24   #141
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tempest UK
far too PC to even suggest such a thing ;Q

Regards,
Tempest
Same problem here. I guess it's going to take some people getting killed to stop this PC crud. They search little old ladies, but not the most likely. ;Q

Thanks for the link on Bucks. I was thinking it was a little further from London. And I thought it was a county, but wasn't sure. My map didn't really show the counties. Looks like a nice place to visit.

Hawk
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Old 12-30-2005, 14:01   #142
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Looks like a nice place to visit.

Hawk
It is! Just like the rest of the UK!

We are lovely really, honest! ;f
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Old 12-30-2005, 15:44   #143
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It is! Just like the rest of the UK!

We are lovely really, honest! ;f
I'll buy that.

But if your worst job is to break up drunken brawls, and it happens every week, maybe you really DO need to outlaw beer mugs.;b

Sorry, that was just a little too easy!

Stay safe, and maybe I'll get there one of these days.

Hawk
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Old 12-30-2005, 17:14   #144
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Just to point out my very American opinion, but on a comment that was made earlier about the British not having the right to keep and bear arms. I have to disagree, you HAVE the right, as it's not a governmental given privilage, it's a right, given to you by God, gods, nature, or whatever you choose to believe in (another of your rights) the fact that the majority have surrendered your right, doesn't make it any less your right. Just harder to enjoy, and potentially unpleasant.
As for the other comment made earlier about not having said right, and having gotten along swimmingly (sorry, I don't know how to quote) for the past several thousand years. Again, I disagree, and I think there a thousands of Scots, Irish, etc who were forceably disarmed by the friendly government of the now UK, who fought and died to restore those rights would probably agree with me. The same people whom, if they had abided by prohibitions of owning swords at the time, might still be second class subjects or worse.
I'm not trying to pick a fight, although I'm sure I could win, since I'm armed and you guys aren't ;f. (just teasing on that last bit) but my point is thus, you DO have the right, you just fail to recongize it, and that freedoms have been hard fought from the government in your own past. Yes I understnad, you are statistically safer in terms of violent crime in the UK, and I understand that the majority gave up their rights willingly. My "Live Free or die" attitude wouldn't fly. Or maybe it would, maybe we just disagree on what "free" is. That could be the the main misunderstanding between us.
I'm a libertarian, which puts me in the minority even in this country, because of what I believe freedom is, as compared to the average American, so I'd probably way off there anyway. *Drown* I don't trust a government, any government, because historically, every government men have created has become corrupt and lead to tyranny. The only ones that have not, are the ones that haven't had time to yet. I do not trust my government not to do it, and I suspect that your government, wittingly or not, is heading for a calamity. So I think governments should stay out of peoples lives as much as humanly possible, to reduce their ability to oppress people. I don't think they should have anything to do with people doing things to themselves, and I don't believe that they should preemptively attack me, when I have not done anything to harm others, or interfere with their basic rights. An example of this is a popular law here in the US, where the wearing of seatbelts is required by law. I ask you, what business is it the government's, if I kill or injure myself? They should not have the authority. I wear my seatbelt because I choose to, not because they try and make me. The same is true of gun ownership in my mind, they have no business taking away my God given right to protect myself, whether I "need" it or not. I may live in a place that has no crime whatsoever, but if I'm not hurting or endangering anyone else, there is not adequate reason to take this away from me, it doesn't make sense to me. Afterall, if its that safe, then the danger of me doing anything is nil anyway, right? And if there IS in fact a danger, then I should have the ability to handle it myself, if I choose.
Wow... I've made alot more noise than I intended to ;f so I appologize if I ranted a bit too much.
At any rate, stay safe, and live free
b
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Old 12-30-2005, 18:12   #145
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Midnight,

If you refer back to an earlier post of mine, I think it comes down to they trust their government, and we don't. I think that at least part of that is no invasion in the last 950 years. Whatever the reason, it is there.

And while you and I think they're standing on the track, and the train is coming, most of them won't agree. And most of humanity would sooner give up their lives than their preconceptions.

As Tempest has said earlier, their leadership is too PC to admit that there is a problem, and it will probably take some more lives before they do. Who was it who said that all it takes to make a liberal into a gun-nut is a mugging?

And yes, I think that their definition of freedom is different than ours. I think theirs is: Free to live in peace and harmony with fellow subjects. (This is subject to correction by our UK cousins.) Our definition is: Free to go to hell in our own handbasket.

We may not agree, but when I look at it their way, I can see why they're not getting bent out of shape.

And keep in mind that the last time they got mugged, we sent guns and they put them to dam good use.

And they have more of an attitude that government confers rights, not God. But that's why we split in the first place.

Hawk
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Old 12-30-2005, 18:22   #146
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Agreed, I'm not trying to be an ***, but I read this thread every time somone posts, and I just had to say something again I accept the differences, but I just can't fathom how so many good, hard working people, of whom so many died protecting freedom, can simply say "well, that wasn't really freedom anyway, and since we don't think we need it now, we never will" it just seems to be a recipe for disaster to me.
Goes back to the culture differences I guess.
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Old 12-30-2005, 18:38   #147
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KY-Midnight,


That isn't the point. Those that fight and died didn't do for to sample freedom, they did so to secure freedom. It is not a case of us not thinking we needed it, it is a case of us , correctly or not, believing we have it.

Three little quotes from three different perspectives:

From my definition of freedom:

"We seek peace, knowing that peace is the climate of freedom."
- Dwight D. Eisenhower

From what I assume to be yours and Brown Hawk's, regarding us:

"The average man does not want to be free. He simply wants to be safe."
-
H. L. Mencken


However, I think it is generally foolish to speak in terms of simple "freedom". In that respect, none of us a "free". Instead, we should look at it in terms of individual freedoms, and the presence of any one freedom does not make you "free".

To this viewpoint, the last quote relates. I would try to apply this to the American way of thinking, but equally I am sure you will apply it to ours. I am sure, rather, that it applies to both of us. You believe in "freedom" which in itself is a lie by its own definition, and under the "British" way of thinking we should supposedly believe ourselves to be "free" also. However, I personally recognise that by said definition of "freedom", as I have stated before, none of us are "free".

"None are so hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free."
- Goethe

Regards,
Tempest
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Old 12-30-2005, 18:44   #148
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Quote:
Originally posted by KY-Midnight

Goes back to the culture differences I guess.
Yeah,
But look at it from their point of view.

In the United States of America:
Atheists believe in God given rights;
Liberals don't think the government should stick it's nose in THEIR business;
Conservatives believe in individual liberty;
Christians will turn the other cheek, but retain their six guns;
and
We founded the UN, but regularly tell it to B%^&***& OUT.

No wonder they think we're way out there.;Q

Hawk
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Old 12-30-2005, 19:10   #149
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tempest UK

"We seek peace, knowing that peace is the climate of freedom."
- Dwight D. Eisenhower


"The average man does not want to be free. He simply wants to be safe."
-
H. L. Mencken


"None are so hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free."
- Goethe

Regards,
Tempest
Hey, Tempest, How you doing?

As for your three quotes, I'd say:

Freedom is the climate of peace.

The average man wants to be free, but often will settle for safe.

If I recall, Goethe believed that circumstances governed us, not the other way around. So he didn't believe in freedom.

I think Midnight and I would tend to agree on the first two. And at the beginning of this country, a European traveling here, (I'm sorry I forget his name) said that when Americans were confronted with someone who said that the circumstances wouldn't permit something, would retort that then they would change the circumstances. We haven't changed much since.

Good to hear from you,

Hawk
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Old 12-31-2005, 21:40   #150
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Quote:
Originally posted by Brown Hawk

But if your worst job is to break up drunken brawls, and it happens every week, maybe you really DO need to outlaw beer mugs.;b
Tell me about it! ;z
Friday and Saturday nights are THE nights for all the trouble. Binge drinking and public order problems are the biggest challenges the police here currently face. It's an issue which regularly makes headline news, and is a top priority in the Governments agenda.

As an interesting side issue, the Serious Organised Crime and Police Act 2005 became law as of midnight tonight. It's a HUGE change in our powers of arrest. Basically ANY offence is now arrestable under Section 24 of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act. In the past, some offences were not 'arrestable' and had to be dealt with by summons etc.
It's not as simple as it sounds though. The new Act states that we should only arrest when other means, such as fixed penalty notices or the like are not appropriate. When the suspect is now arrested, not only must he be cautioned and given the reason for his arrest, but he must now be told why that arrest is necessary.
This only applies to England and Wales. Scotland's criminal law is different to the rest of the UK.
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