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Old 07-23-2006, 13:00   #241
Hugh Neal
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Well, this thread has gone a bit quiet. I am not sure what the rules are relating to cross posting, so here goes:

http://arthurpewtysmaggotsandwich.blogspot.com/

Hugh.
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Old 07-24-2006, 09:44   #242
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Well, surprise surprise - an (almost) fair report from the BBC News website about target rifle shooting in Britain. Their reporter visited Bisley, the home of UK rifle shooting. See what you think here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/5209632.stm
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Old 08-29-2006, 10:54   #243
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I would like the Brits' perspective on this...

I came across this two years ago and printed a copy. It was from "news.scotsman.com". Specifically, the entire address was "http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id-2687311". When I type that address in now it does not go to the article. Some of you who are more net-savvy than I may be able to drill down to it, but take my word for it, this is a verbatim copy of the article.

Begin Quote:

"PA News. Tue. 23 March, 2004

“MAN WHO KILLED ARMED INTRUDER JAILED EIGHT YEARS.

By Will Batchelor, PA News.

A man who stabbed to death an armed intruder at his home was jailed for eight years today.

Carl Lindsay, 25, answered a knock at his door in Salford, Greater Manchester, to find four men armed with a gun.

When the gang tried to rob him he grabbed a samurai sword and stabbed one of them, 37-year-old Stephen Swindells, four times.

Mr. Swindells, of Salford, was later found collapsed in an alley and died in hospital.

Lindsay, of Walkden, was found guilty of manslaughter following a three-week trial at Manchester Crown Court.

He was sentenced to eight years’ imprisonment.

After the case, Detective Chief Inspector Sam Haworth said: “Four men, including the victim, had set out purposefully to rob Carl Lindsay and this intent ultimately led to Stephen Swindell’s death.”

“I believe the sentences passed today reflect the severity of the circumstances.”

Three other men were charged with robbery and firearms offences in connection with the incident, which took place in February last year.”

End Quote.

Compare this to a recent incident that happened here in Atlanta, Georgia, USA.

An ex-US Marine, working late as a waiter in a local restaurant, was walking to his girl-friend's home after work, after dark. He is originally from the New York City area and is evidently more than normally what Americans call "street smart".

He was targeted for attack and probably, robbery by a 5-person "crew" in a car. When he identified the motions of the car to be hostile, he started running and yelling "Fire".

(Often here in the States, someone hearing a call of "Fire" will be more likely to call the universal Police/Fire/Medical emergency telephone number "911" than they will if they hear a call of "Robbery". Since Police will probably respond to a "Fire" call anyway, you are more likely to get a faster Police response that way in a situation like this.)

While he ran he also pulled a locked-blade folding knife out of his backpack.

The 5 assailants got ahead of him, cut him off, piled out of their vehicle, surrounded him, and the fight began.

Between them the perpetrators were armed with a SHOTGUN and a .380 Automatic pistol.

In the ensuing fight he KICKED the shotgun out of one assailants' hands while he knifed at least two of them. The assailant with the .380 did not get any shots off; I am not sure why not.

One of the two assailants, a 17-year old female, later died. The others were arrested at a hospital soon after.

Now, here in Atlanta, this guy was hailed as a HERO for several days. One of the first things "official" statements said was that NO CRIMINAL CHARGES would be pressed against him for among other things, having killed a teenaged female in self-defense.

So, my British friends.

In the UK, One gun AND Four to One odds versus a samurai sword results in one perpetrator dead and the DEFENDER getting 8 years in prison for manslaughter.

Whereas,

In the USA, a Shotgun AND a .380 handgun AND Five to One odds versus a folding knife results in one perpetrator dead and the DEFENDER being hailed as a hero and NO criminal charges pressed.

I would be very interested in your perception and analysis of the differing results of these two very similar incidents?

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Old 09-03-2006, 05:34   #244
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I would be very interested in your perception and analysis of the differing results of these two very similar incidents?
It's the difference between being a "CITIZEN" of the United States of America and being a "SUBJECT" of Great Britain.

BTW I use the term "Great" loosely...
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Old 09-04-2006, 13:10   #245
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I concur with UK Pro Gun; we in the UK are not citizens, we are subjects of the Crown - we only have what legal rights the Government chooses to award us. Don't forget that we don't have a written constitution as such.

There have been other, more widely publicised cases, such as the farmer Thomas Hamilton who interrupted two violent burglars raiding his isolated Norfolk farm house and shot one of the bad guys dead. He ended up in jail too.

You have to bear in mind, that the general attitude of the British public is "only criminals have guns, therefore if you have a gun you must be a criminal". Things are VERY different to the U.S. Social and political policy in the U.K is diametrically opposite to that in the U.S. Victims are presumed guilty and the perpetrators innocent in a vast majority of cases; Policies held by the U.S Democrat party would be deemed close to fascist by the left wing Labour Government. Air rifles are about to come under firearms restrictions (basically banned in all but a small handful of cases) and replica and toy weapons are getting close to being banned too.

More details on my opinions and views can be viewed here:

http://arthurpewtysmaggotsandwich.blogspot.com/

All views are my own and do not reflect opinons or policy on Glock talk. Your mileage may vary.
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Old 09-07-2006, 17:57   #246
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?

Here in the States, if you are faced with a "threat of death or grave bodily harm" you are permitted to use any force necessary, including LETHAL force, against your attacker to reverse the threat he poses to your health and continued life.

If you DO kill an attacker in self-defense, your actions will first be reviewed by what is called the "District Attorney" or "DA"; the governmental attorney who is responsible for the prosecution of criminal charges for crimes that occur in his district.

If he decides that criminal charges SHOULD be pressed, in a case involving a death the case will be reviewed by a Judge and "Grand Jury" who usually agree with the DA that the criminal charges should continue to trial. However, the Grand Jury CAN return a "No Bill" decision and overrule the DA.

In the Atlanta case Norske cites, evidently the local DA reviewed the case and immediately decided that the ex-Marine/waiter was justified in his self-defense actions, even though they resulted in the death of one of his attackers. He did not press any charges, much less proceed to impanel a Grand Jury.

Mr. Lindsay, faced with 4 to 1 odds and a gun, chose to fight, and killed an attacker. For this, he gets 8 years for manslaughter.

Under the British legal system, what SHOULD he have done? Run? Simply invite them in and offer to help them carry his goods out? All the while HOPING that they won't kill him before they leave? What, exactly, SHOULD he have done in the eyes of the UK legal system?

What is the mind-set of the prosecutors, judges, and jury in a (Manchester) "Crown Court" assuming you have their equivilents that results in such a verdict?

Is there no concept of "justifiable homicide" in a case of self defense in the UK?




Last edited by Archangel Mike; 09-07-2006 at 18:02..
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Old 09-10-2006, 22:55   #247
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Hi chaps, sorry, I have not got time to post a detailed reply right now (getting ready to go to work). Story in today's Sun Newspaper:

http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2006420092,00.html

Hugh.
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Old 09-12-2006, 12:46   #248
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After reading that "Sun" article......

Quote:
Originally posted by Hugh Neal
Hi chaps, sorry, I have not got time to post a detailed reply right now (getting ready to go to work). Story in today's Sun Newspaper:

http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2006420092,00.html

Hugh.
I will restate Archangel Mikes question.

Has the UK legal system gone completely INSANE?

Is it totally composed of ANARCHISTS?

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Old 09-13-2006, 14:10   #249
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I will restate Archangel Mikes question.

Has the UK legal system gone completely INSANE?
The short answer is yes.
The long answer is a bit more complicated but here goes.

The UK is now run by the EU, (European commission) which wants to run all of Europe. The UK government had already started to give up Britain's sovereignty years ago when we first joined the common market but the government knows that there is more to come. A lot MORE!

The main obstacle to this is the indigenous people, i.e., us Brits! So what is the solution? Easy, make sure that all subjects, and yes folks we are subjects, learn how to be good victims and put up with all manner of cr*p dished up by muggers, murderer's rapist etc.

To that end the government has taken away all rights to self defence let alone any tools for self defence, i.e. firearms. Children and adults alike have been indoctrinated into fearing the “evil” firearms and believe in the holy ghost of Police defence for Joe Public!

In the great plan, which is accepted with gusto by the UN, all subject of the grand state of Europe will be defenceless sheep with only the “right” people allowed to defend themselves. These consist mostly of Politicians and big business. What a surprise!

So what are we doing about this?

Well mostly nothing.

What can we do about this?

One of two things as I see it, of course this being the internet that makes me an expert

1: Emigrate. Hello USA I'm on my way!

2: Vote BNP, British National Party, who are the only party with the balls to do something about the state of the country of which the first thing is to get out of the European Commission, followed quickly by the reintroduction of the right to self defence with any tool you see fit to use which would INCLUDE firearms!

There is a lot more involved than just this but you start to see what is going wrong here. So people of America, a little advice. KEEP THE 2nd AMENDMENT, and say NO to immigration.
Er, except me of course. I'm one of the good guys
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Old 09-13-2006, 17:59   #250
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Originally posted by UK Pro Gun
So people of America, a little advice. KEEP THE 2nd AMENDMENT, and say NO to immigration.
Er, except me of course. I'm one of the good guys
It’s too bad we (the US) can’t work out a deal with the UK and Canadian. We’ll take all the people like you and give them all of ours that think like the rest. Now that would truly lead to utopia. A polite, intelligent, armed society that has no intension of doing each other harm and has the tools to see to it that it comes to pass.

Ps. I’m still waiting for the flood of blood in all the states that have passed CCW. Brady bunch...
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Old 09-17-2006, 11:44   #251
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I would agree with most of what UK Pro Gun states; there is a general degree of apathy in the UK; people are encouraged to feel that the Police are the only arbiters of the law, and that self defence is a bad thing. Most Brits are incredibly "politically correct" - and doubly so in the media. One common reaction to the London 7/7 bombings of last year was "Why have Muslim youths become so disaffected with British society, and what can we do to help them feel integrated?"

The influence of the European Union and the dreaded "Human Rights Act" are everywhere. A thief running away after stealing a mobile telephone should not be apprehended by a public minded passer by, as "you might hurt him and get sued" or "you would be breaching his human rights if you detain him".

More of the same, and a few light hearted grumbles on my updated Blog here:

http://arthurpewtysmaggotsandwich.blogspot.com/
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Old 10-29-2006, 20:59   #252
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Some seem to think all is well in the UK. It's not my place to judge that for them. This does not change the fact that a Government depriving the citizenry of it's basic right to self defense, both against criminals and the Government itself, is oppression is its purest form, whether anyone wants to believe it or not. The beliefs some from the UK hold do not change the facts about the gun bans there, and the corresponding rise in gun violence, and violent crime in general. Living how you want is the right of any society. It doesn't change the facts, and the price paid for the dreams of those without a base in reality, or an even piddling knowledge of human nature.
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Old 12-13-2006, 13:37   #253
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Quote:
Originally posted by Vulthoom
Some seem to think all is well in the UK. It's not my place to judge that for them. This does not change the fact that a Government depriving the citizenry of it's basic right to self defense, both against criminals and the Government itself, is oppression is its purest form, whether anyone wants to believe it or not. The beliefs some from the UK hold do not change the facts about the gun bans there, and the corresponding rise in gun violence, and violent crime in general. Living how you want is the right of any society. It doesn't change the facts, and the price paid for the dreams of those without a base in reality, or an even piddling knowledge of human nature.
Try reading the thread again, hopefully you will understand.

Your statement highlighted in bold, shockingly enough, is the point. 90%+ of the population is quite happy living without US style gun laws. They wouldn't want them.

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Old 12-13-2006, 15:10   #254
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tempest UK
Try reading the thread again, hopefully you will understand.

Your statement highlighted in bold, shockingly enough, is the point. 90%+ of the population is quite happy living without US style gun laws. They wouldn't want them.

Regards,
Tempest
So much for the God-given right of self defense then, eh? Because (insert percentage here) decide they don't want the ability to defend themselves is not a good enough reason to deny others the same. Matter of fact, denying another the right and ability to defend themselves is barbaric to say the least. In this way you have something in common with the islamofascists; barbarity.
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Old 12-13-2006, 15:15   #255
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The British Public has been brainwashed into being anti-gun
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Old 12-13-2006, 15:38   #256
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This was a very good post up until the part about voting for the BNP.
This is an extremely anti-Semitic, anti-Black organization. Similar to the fascists.

"The UK is now run by the EU, (European commission) which wants to run all of Europe. The UK government had already started to give up Britain's sovereignty years ago when we first joined the common market but the government knows that there is more to come. A lot MORE!

The main obstacle to this is the indigenous people, i.e., us Brits! So what is the solution? Easy, make sure that all subjects, and yes folks we are subjects, learn how to be good victims and put up with all manner of cr*p dished up by muggers, murderer's rapist etc.

To that end the government has taken away all rights to self defence let alone any tools for self defence, i.e. firearms. Children and adults alike have been indoctrinated into fearing the “evil” firearms and believe in the holy ghost of Police defence for Joe Public!

In the great plan, which is accepted with gusto by the UN, all subject of the grand state of Europe will be defenceless sheep with only the “right” people allowed to defend themselves. These consist mostly of Politicians and big business. What a surprise!

So what are we doing about this?

Well mostly nothing.

What can we do about this?

One of two things as I see it, of course this being the internet that makes me an expert

1: Emigrate. Hello USA I'm on my way!

2: Vote BNP, British National Party, who are the only party with the balls to do something about the state of the country of which the first thing is to get out of the European Commission, followed quickly by the reintroduction of the right to self defence with any tool you see fit to use which would INCLUDE firearms!

There is a lot more involved than just this but you start to see what is going wrong here. So people of America, a little advice. KEEP THE 2nd AMENDMENT, and say NO to immigration.
Er, except me of course. I'm one of the good guys


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Old 12-14-2006, 10:56   #257
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So, in a nutshell, anyone who doesn't share your views and opinions is an "islamofascist" (or even just a tame old, regular fascist) and a barbarian. Very good, it warms me to know you are happy to fling these terms around with a complete apparent lack of understanding. Put down the guns and pick up a dictionary. Then again, I have been "brainwashed", so what could I possibly know?

Is the vast majority of a population not wanting something not a good reason to...not have it? Perhaps instead we should bow to the minorities. Let the few hold sway over the many. I am confident the majority of the population has no desire to molest children, but I am almost certain you would agree that it would not be civilised to allow paedophilia.

If the British public has been "brainwashed" into being anti-gun, are you so sure you have not been brainwashed into being pro-gun? Of course you are sure. You are a Great American, with a god on your side.


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Old 12-14-2006, 11:02   #258
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No, I am British, but not proud of it anymore.
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Old 12-14-2006, 13:49   #259
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tempest UK
You are a Great American, with a god on your side.

Regards,
Tempest
In typical stile of the anti gunner you don’t let facts get in the way of your opinion. In fact it seems you don’t bother with facts. But then anties never do.

Quote:
Originally posted by Ian
No, I am British, but not proud of it anymore.
Ian, none of us are proud of all our countrymen. There are good, bad and just plain stupid in all cultures. Take heart in knowing you are a good man.

"The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to
do nothing." Edmund Burke
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Old 12-14-2006, 15:24   #260
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Anti-gunner? No. Not by a long way. As I have stated earlier in this thread, if I happened to have been born in the United States, or were to become a US citizen, I would most certainly exercise my right to own a firearm, and would defend the right to do so. As it happens I am not a US citizen. As far as Britons go, I am pro-gun. I am planning on applying for a Shotgun Certificate, and am looking into the possibility of a Firearms Certificate.

You make too many assumptions.

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