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Old 05-23-2006, 15:09   #226
Hugh Neal
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Nisha Patel Nasri's case has just been the lead story on BBC's "Crimewatch" (the leading anti crime show in the UK where the general public are urged to help catch the worst criminals at large in the country).

Link here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/crime/crimewatch/

Quite a few new leads seem to have come up as a direct result of the appeal by the show. Hopefully more news eventually leading to arrests and convictions will be forthcoming soon.

We don't have the death penalty in the UK. For cop and kid killers we have something far worse. It does not get handed out very often (maybe once or twice a year), but there is a sentence which is termed "to be detained at Her Majesty's pleasure". Polite legalese for "throw away the key". Get this and you are certain to spend your entire remaining life in jail. As a Special Police Constable the prosecution in any future murder case would almost certainly press for this sentence.
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Old 05-23-2006, 15:26   #227
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hugh Neal
Nisha Patel Nasri's case has just been the lead story on BBC's "Crimewatch" (the leading anti crime show in the UK where the general public are urged to help catch the worst criminals at large in the country).

Link here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/crime/crimewatch/

Quite a few new leads seem to have come up as a direct result of the appeal by the show. Hopefully more news eventually leading to arrests and convictions will be forthcoming soon.

We don't have the death penalty in the UK. For cop and kid killers we have something far worse. It does not get handed out very often (maybe once or twice a year), but there is a sentence which is termed "to be detained at Her Majesty's pleasure". Polite legalese for "throw away the key". Get this and you are certain to spend your entire remaining life in jail. As a Special Police Constable the prosecution in any future murder case would almost certainly press for this sentence.
Not really true I'm afraid, I wish it was. "At Her Majesty's pleasure" is used more for young offenders. It's basically an open-ended tarriff imposed by a Judge but where the length is determined by the Home Secretary. It's quite common, especially when young offenders have been found guilty of serious offences.

Under English law, all murders carry a mandatory life sentence, but life rarely means life, unfortunately.
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Old 05-23-2006, 15:32   #228
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Do you not think that under the circumstances the Courts would follow the sentence given to that American former Marine (whose name currently evades me) who shot and killed a UK serving Police officer about three years ago? He got a "detained at Her Majesty's" and he's never coming out.
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Old 05-23-2006, 15:41   #229
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Originally posted by Hugh Neal
Do you not think that under the circumstances the Courts would follow the sentence given to that American former Marine (whose name currently evades me) who shot and killed a UK serving Police officer about three years ago? He got a "detained at Her Majesty's" and he's never coming out.
David Bieber got 3 life sentences, and was recommended by the judge to recieve a "whole-life" tariff (only the 25th person in Britain to recieve this).
This is something different to "At Her Majesty's Pleasure", but I see where you're coming from.
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Old 05-24-2006, 22:43   #230
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Hello everyone,

This has been an interesting thread and for the most part a good discussion with both sides having valid points.

I will say one thing and that is you UK guys have it made in terms of beautiful lands, I live in Florida and it's all swampy, but I love Florida anyway .. especially the excellent self defense laws we have set in place. However, Florida's self defense laws being immediatley released in the UK would not help the UK.

I hope we continue to be friends and I sure would like to visit some of those fantastic cities over there.
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Old 05-25-2006, 11:19   #231
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Originally posted by HeavyRevolver
Hello everyone,

This has been an interesting thread and for the most part a good discussion with both sides having valid points.

I will say one thing and that is you UK guys have it made in terms of beautiful lands, I live in Florida and it's all swampy, but I love Florida anyway .. especially the excellent self defense laws we have set in place. However, Florida's self defense laws being immediatley released in the UK would not help the UK.

I hope we continue to be friends and I sure would like to visit some of those fantastic cities over there.
Cheers buddy. Any of my American cousins would be more than welcome at my house.

I'm looking to visit sunny Florida later in the year for a holiday. Florida is VERY popular with us pale faced Brits looking for some sun!
Oddly enough we're entering the worst drought for 100 years here. Hosepipe bans are in force and many of the reserviors are running on empty!
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Old 05-25-2006, 11:31   #232
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Hey I am just North of Fort Lauderdale.
You could shoot when you are here if you would like.
There is USPSA (IPSC), IDPA, or Steel shoots here, pretty much every week.
If you would like to try wakeboarding (most Brits are crazy and like it ) there is a great Cable-Ski near, as well as one in Orlando.
Also in Orlando is a Sky Diving simulator.
Backgammon Tournament every week in Fort Lauderdale.
What are your hobbies?
You can see what mine are

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Old 05-25-2006, 12:27   #233
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Originally posted by Ian
Hey I am just North of Fort Lauderdale.
You could shoot when you are here if you would like.
There is USPSA (IPSC), IDPA, or Steel shoots here, pretty much every week.
If you would like to try wakeboarding (most Brits are crazy and like it ) there is a great Cable-Ski near, as well as one in Orlando.
Also in Orlando is a Sky Diving simulator.
Backgammon Tournamnet every week in Fort Lauderdale.
What are your hobbies?
You can see what mine are
I enjoy shooting - mostly shotguns, but also air rifles (obviously not had a go at handguns, but would love to!)

Also into computing, keeping fit and travelling - been all over Europe, Texas, the Far East and Australia.

..... Oh, and catching Bad Guys!
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Old 05-27-2006, 01:53   #234
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Quote:
Originally posted by TommyT
I enjoy shooting - mostly shotguns, but also air rifles (obviously not had a go at handguns, but would love to!)

Also into computing, keeping fit and travelling - been all over Europe, Texas, the Far East and Australia.

..... Oh, and catching Bad Guys!
Well Tommy if you are ever in Florida I would take you shooting since you expressed an interest in trying out a handgun, they even let you rent rangetime with sub-machine guns here and that's quite a rush! There were some guys from northern England in the range I practice at going at it with a WW2 Sten gun and taking pictures of themselves shooting and what not.

Florida also has thousands of gyms so you could get a good workout in your stay here. The best time to come would be in the fall/winter, the weather is just perfect about in the 60's and 70's fahrenheit.

I would also vouch with what you said about Britains firearm squad as being one of the best in the world, they are instructed by SAS soldiers often and those guys are very hardcore, walking lethal weapons, just like our Grey Fox soldiers.

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Old 05-27-2006, 12:12   #235
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Originally posted by HeavyRevolver
Well Tommy if you are ever in Florida I would take you shooting since you expressed an interest in trying out a handgun, they even let you rent rangetime with sub-machine guns here and that's quite a rush! There were some guys from northern England in the range I practice at going at it with a WW2 Sten gun and taking pictures of themselves shooting and what not.

Florida also has thousands of gyms so you could get a good workout in your stay here. The best time to come would be in the fall/winter, the weather is just perfect about in the 60's and 70's fahrenheit.

I would also vouch with what you said about Britains firearm squad as being one of the best in the world, they are instructed by SAS soldiers often and those guys are very hardcore, walking lethal weapons, just like our Grey Fox soldiers.
I went to an East European country a couple of years back and got to have a go with an AK47. Good god that's one hellova bit of kit. No wonder it's so popular all around the world. It's cheap, simple, reliable and DEADLY!

As for our fireams teams, yes, they are very impressive.
Their level of training and experience is, quite simply, second to none.

I've just finished reading this book .....

Gun-Control Issues

It was a riveting read. I particularly liked the references to the Superintendant in charge of the SO19 training unit, who had the affectionate nickname of "Fifty Fu**s", due to the amount of verbal ammunition he threw at people!
I can highly recommend the book. It shows, in depth, what the life of a fireams officer is like. The highs, the lows, the comradeship - it's all in there.

SO19 is the Metropolitan Police (which polices London) elite firearms unit (equivalent to a US SWAT team.)


Just found THIS VIDEO , which demonstrates perfectly what the average British cop has to deal with week-in, week-out. Unfortunately, it's all too common in most towns and cities up and down the country at weekends.
Mind you, I do like the soundtrack to the video!
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Old 05-28-2006, 06:32   #236
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What a depressing video. I did notice that several of the clips appeared to be of the same incident filmed from different surveillance camera angles. What also springs to my mind in each case, if the cameras were up, running and being actively monitored by security staff, where were the Police? I cannot see the point in the UK having the most heavily security monitored society in the world (for our American friends, London alone has more surveillance cameras than the whole of North America, including Canada combined). The UK also has the most sophisticated computerised car licence plate reading and tracking system in the world - a legacy of the IRA conflict, when much optical character recognition software was pioneered in the UK.

What is the point of having this if you don't give the Police enough resources to actually stop the violence as it is happening? It is all very well being able to use the video evidence in court, always supposing the scumbags are actually caught, which often seems not to be the case, or if they are, the incompetence of the Crown Prosecution Service or the weakness of the Judiciary usually means the offender gets let off pretty much scot free.

Many town centres are becoming "no-go" areas after dark - I can speak from personal experience. Even locally, Police and Community Support Officers are deployed as a deterrent to physical violence breaking out at the local bus station, when groups of Chavs and schoolkids (often one and the same) hang out, illegally drinking and quite openly both taking and selling drugs (seen this first hand on a number of occasions). If you try and do anything, you risk getting stabbed or shot - and some are only 13 or 14 years old. I wish I was exaggerating for effect, but I am not. TommyT, I am referring to Bexleyheath Broadway - I am sure you are familiar. It has got so bad in Bexleyheath that buses do not stop in the area after 10pm due to the level of physical violence and verbal abuse. It is not some deprived run down inner city area; it is a relatively wealthy middle class outer South East London suburb.

On a slightly different angle, a work colleagues' husband is a member of SO19; he joined last year about two month's before the July 7th bombings. From what she tells me they are extremely stretched right now. Anyway, I think I should get off my soap box for a bit...
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Old 05-28-2006, 07:26   #237
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Solution to British gun crime:

Arm all leo's with:

Gun-Control Issues




Well, maybe not..


Best Wishes,

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Old 05-28-2006, 08:01   #238
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Solution to British gun crime:

Arm all lac's (Law abiding citizens, i.e. ME!) with:

Gun-Control Issues

Well maybe YES, actually BIG bloody yes!



Have a nice day,


Last edited by UK Pro Gun; 06-02-2006 at 11:05..
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Old 06-06-2006, 09:49   #239
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I know this is off topic, but what the hell...


Fully auto Glock with a drum magazine modification (*drool*.... I want one....)

A little bit more zing than my Glock 17 before the ban.

http://www.strategypage.com/gallery/..._with_drum.wmv
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Old 06-06-2006, 22:41   #240
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Oh dear - for some reason it does not like linking. Sorry.
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Old 07-23-2006, 13:00   #241
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Well, this thread has gone a bit quiet. I am not sure what the rules are relating to cross posting, so here goes:

http://arthurpewtysmaggotsandwich.blogspot.com/

Hugh.
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Old 07-24-2006, 09:44   #242
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Well, surprise surprise - an (almost) fair report from the BBC News website about target rifle shooting in Britain. Their reporter visited Bisley, the home of UK rifle shooting. See what you think here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/5209632.stm
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Old 08-29-2006, 10:54   #243
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I would like the Brits' perspective on this...

I came across this two years ago and printed a copy. It was from "news.scotsman.com". Specifically, the entire address was "http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id-2687311". When I type that address in now it does not go to the article. Some of you who are more net-savvy than I may be able to drill down to it, but take my word for it, this is a verbatim copy of the article.

Begin Quote:

"PA News. Tue. 23 March, 2004

“MAN WHO KILLED ARMED INTRUDER JAILED EIGHT YEARS.

By Will Batchelor, PA News.

A man who stabbed to death an armed intruder at his home was jailed for eight years today.

Carl Lindsay, 25, answered a knock at his door in Salford, Greater Manchester, to find four men armed with a gun.

When the gang tried to rob him he grabbed a samurai sword and stabbed one of them, 37-year-old Stephen Swindells, four times.

Mr. Swindells, of Salford, was later found collapsed in an alley and died in hospital.

Lindsay, of Walkden, was found guilty of manslaughter following a three-week trial at Manchester Crown Court.

He was sentenced to eight years’ imprisonment.

After the case, Detective Chief Inspector Sam Haworth said: “Four men, including the victim, had set out purposefully to rob Carl Lindsay and this intent ultimately led to Stephen Swindell’s death.”

“I believe the sentences passed today reflect the severity of the circumstances.”

Three other men were charged with robbery and firearms offences in connection with the incident, which took place in February last year.”

End Quote.

Compare this to a recent incident that happened here in Atlanta, Georgia, USA.

An ex-US Marine, working late as a waiter in a local restaurant, was walking to his girl-friend's home after work, after dark. He is originally from the New York City area and is evidently more than normally what Americans call "street smart".

He was targeted for attack and probably, robbery by a 5-person "crew" in a car. When he identified the motions of the car to be hostile, he started running and yelling "Fire".

(Often here in the States, someone hearing a call of "Fire" will be more likely to call the universal Police/Fire/Medical emergency telephone number "911" than they will if they hear a call of "Robbery". Since Police will probably respond to a "Fire" call anyway, you are more likely to get a faster Police response that way in a situation like this.)

While he ran he also pulled a locked-blade folding knife out of his backpack.

The 5 assailants got ahead of him, cut him off, piled out of their vehicle, surrounded him, and the fight began.

Between them the perpetrators were armed with a SHOTGUN and a .380 Automatic pistol.

In the ensuing fight he KICKED the shotgun out of one assailants' hands while he knifed at least two of them. The assailant with the .380 did not get any shots off; I am not sure why not.

One of the two assailants, a 17-year old female, later died. The others were arrested at a hospital soon after.

Now, here in Atlanta, this guy was hailed as a HERO for several days. One of the first things "official" statements said was that NO CRIMINAL CHARGES would be pressed against him for among other things, having killed a teenaged female in self-defense.

So, my British friends.

In the UK, One gun AND Four to One odds versus a samurai sword results in one perpetrator dead and the DEFENDER getting 8 years in prison for manslaughter.

Whereas,

In the USA, a Shotgun AND a .380 handgun AND Five to One odds versus a folding knife results in one perpetrator dead and the DEFENDER being hailed as a hero and NO criminal charges pressed.

I would be very interested in your perception and analysis of the differing results of these two very similar incidents?

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Old 09-03-2006, 05:34   #244
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Quote:
I would be very interested in your perception and analysis of the differing results of these two very similar incidents?
It's the difference between being a "CITIZEN" of the United States of America and being a "SUBJECT" of Great Britain.

BTW I use the term "Great" loosely...
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Old 09-04-2006, 13:10   #245
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I concur with UK Pro Gun; we in the UK are not citizens, we are subjects of the Crown - we only have what legal rights the Government chooses to award us. Don't forget that we don't have a written constitution as such.

There have been other, more widely publicised cases, such as the farmer Thomas Hamilton who interrupted two violent burglars raiding his isolated Norfolk farm house and shot one of the bad guys dead. He ended up in jail too.

You have to bear in mind, that the general attitude of the British public is "only criminals have guns, therefore if you have a gun you must be a criminal". Things are VERY different to the U.S. Social and political policy in the U.K is diametrically opposite to that in the U.S. Victims are presumed guilty and the perpetrators innocent in a vast majority of cases; Policies held by the U.S Democrat party would be deemed close to fascist by the left wing Labour Government. Air rifles are about to come under firearms restrictions (basically banned in all but a small handful of cases) and replica and toy weapons are getting close to being banned too.

More details on my opinions and views can be viewed here:

http://arthurpewtysmaggotsandwich.blogspot.com/

All views are my own and do not reflect opinons or policy on Glock talk. Your mileage may vary.
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Old 09-07-2006, 17:57   #246
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?

Here in the States, if you are faced with a "threat of death or grave bodily harm" you are permitted to use any force necessary, including LETHAL force, against your attacker to reverse the threat he poses to your health and continued life.

If you DO kill an attacker in self-defense, your actions will first be reviewed by what is called the "District Attorney" or "DA"; the governmental attorney who is responsible for the prosecution of criminal charges for crimes that occur in his district.

If he decides that criminal charges SHOULD be pressed, in a case involving a death the case will be reviewed by a Judge and "Grand Jury" who usually agree with the DA that the criminal charges should continue to trial. However, the Grand Jury CAN return a "No Bill" decision and overrule the DA.

In the Atlanta case Norske cites, evidently the local DA reviewed the case and immediately decided that the ex-Marine/waiter was justified in his self-defense actions, even though they resulted in the death of one of his attackers. He did not press any charges, much less proceed to impanel a Grand Jury.

Mr. Lindsay, faced with 4 to 1 odds and a gun, chose to fight, and killed an attacker. For this, he gets 8 years for manslaughter.

Under the British legal system, what SHOULD he have done? Run? Simply invite them in and offer to help them carry his goods out? All the while HOPING that they won't kill him before they leave? What, exactly, SHOULD he have done in the eyes of the UK legal system?

What is the mind-set of the prosecutors, judges, and jury in a (Manchester) "Crown Court" assuming you have their equivilents that results in such a verdict?

Is there no concept of "justifiable homicide" in a case of self defense in the UK?




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Old 09-10-2006, 22:55   #247
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Hi chaps, sorry, I have not got time to post a detailed reply right now (getting ready to go to work). Story in today's Sun Newspaper:

http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2006420092,00.html

Hugh.
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Old 09-12-2006, 12:46   #248
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After reading that "Sun" article......

Quote:
Originally posted by Hugh Neal
Hi chaps, sorry, I have not got time to post a detailed reply right now (getting ready to go to work). Story in today's Sun Newspaper:

http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2006420092,00.html

Hugh.
I will restate Archangel Mikes question.

Has the UK legal system gone completely INSANE?

Is it totally composed of ANARCHISTS?

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Old 09-13-2006, 14:10   #249
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Quote:
I will restate Archangel Mikes question.

Has the UK legal system gone completely INSANE?
The short answer is yes.
The long answer is a bit more complicated but here goes.

The UK is now run by the EU, (European commission) which wants to run all of Europe. The UK government had already started to give up Britain's sovereignty years ago when we first joined the common market but the government knows that there is more to come. A lot MORE!

The main obstacle to this is the indigenous people, i.e., us Brits! So what is the solution? Easy, make sure that all subjects, and yes folks we are subjects, learn how to be good victims and put up with all manner of cr*p dished up by muggers, murderer's rapist etc.

To that end the government has taken away all rights to self defence let alone any tools for self defence, i.e. firearms. Children and adults alike have been indoctrinated into fearing the “evil” firearms and believe in the holy ghost of Police defence for Joe Public!

In the great plan, which is accepted with gusto by the UN, all subject of the grand state of Europe will be defenceless sheep with only the “right” people allowed to defend themselves. These consist mostly of Politicians and big business. What a surprise!

So what are we doing about this?

Well mostly nothing.

What can we do about this?

One of two things as I see it, of course this being the internet that makes me an expert

1: Emigrate. Hello USA I'm on my way!

2: Vote BNP, British National Party, who are the only party with the balls to do something about the state of the country of which the first thing is to get out of the European Commission, followed quickly by the reintroduction of the right to self defence with any tool you see fit to use which would INCLUDE firearms!

There is a lot more involved than just this but you start to see what is going wrong here. So people of America, a little advice. KEEP THE 2nd AMENDMENT, and say NO to immigration.
Er, except me of course. I'm one of the good guys
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Old 09-13-2006, 17:59   #250
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Originally posted by UK Pro Gun
So people of America, a little advice. KEEP THE 2nd AMENDMENT, and say NO to immigration.
Er, except me of course. I'm one of the good guys
It’s too bad we (the US) can’t work out a deal with the UK and Canadian. We’ll take all the people like you and give them all of ours that think like the rest. Now that would truly lead to utopia. A polite, intelligent, armed society that has no intension of doing each other harm and has the tools to see to it that it comes to pass.

Ps. I’m still waiting for the flood of blood in all the states that have passed CCW. Brady bunch...
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