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Old 04-06-2009, 08:51   #81
The10mmKid
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I'm using Winchester LP primers. They are labeled Standard and Magnum.
I was using some of McNetts 135gr recipes, but was experiencing many Glock smileys. I only had a couple hundred of the light weight bullets, so I started looking at the more common 155, 165 & 180gr. Over the year, I have found my G20 (and me) favor a heavier bullet.

I now load 180 and 200 grainers exclusively.

I'm on +5 reloads with 10.0gr of 800-X, 180gr plated TC bullet (which measures .400) and an OAL of 1.260-1.265. The bullets are from a defunct mfr. named USAC.

Be forewarned . . . . you will hate working with 800-X. It does indeed throw like 6" cocktail plates. I weigh every round . . . . . period!

P.S. Favorite for the 200gr is 8gr of LongShot

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Old 04-11-2009, 21:19   #82
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Got out to fire a workup the other day with the Hornady 155 grain XTP and IMR 800-X, everyone's darling.

75 degrees here in Fort Worth.

Specifics:
G20, stock barrel with a Wolff 22 lb. recoil spring. (My LWD barrel is out having a black finish applied)
Bullets seated at 1.258" OAL
New Starline brass
Winchester LP primers
Lee factory crimp turned one full turn after contact with case mouth, so pretty heavy crimp

Rounded average velocities in FPS:

8.4 grains - 1120

8.6 grains - 1140

8.8 grains - 1170

9.0 grains - 1180

9.2 grains - 1220

9.4 grains - 1245

9.6 grains - 1260

9.8 grains - 1300

10.0 grains - 1345

10.2 grains - 1410

Extreme spreads were over 100 FPS starting at around 9.6 or so grains. Until then they were well within normal at around 20 FPS or so. Suggests to me that the common belief about using magnum primers in heavy loads is warranted. Thought maybe using a heavy crimp would help some. Most here seem to believe that 800-X warrants a mag primer all the time, and some say at least when above 9.0 grains. I have CCI 350's on hand and will continue working with this until I have it right where I want it.

No pressure signs evident with these tested loads, other than the expected case belly from the stock barrel. Switching to a magnum primer may change that, we'll see.

Last edited by RyeDaddy; 04-11-2009 at 21:25..
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Old 05-02-2009, 14:42   #83
Mitch_Rapp.45
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Trouble with 800X

Had my first outing today with my new 20 barrel. My barrel is a KKM comp and until something else is in stock is the factory guide rod and spring. My load was 135gr NOS JHP, CCI 350, Starline brass, and 11.5gr 800X OAL 1.275", crimped to .422" the load was accurate and bullets stable, the brass looks great - maybe .002" swell at the base. The pressure signs on the primers are extreme; completely flat, well defined rectangle where the primer flowed into the striker slot, and a deep drag on the primer strike that almost ripped through the primer. Brass ejects stright up about 30' or so and rains back down on me. Am I getting a detonation type ignition from too little powder? The load manual I have has a load for 1.260" with 14.5 grs at about 1,670fps. I should be way lower than that. Trying to come up with ideas before I try it again. Based on seating depth I would say I am already compressing the load .008" with a charge of 11.5gr. Anyone want to weigh in on this one?

Every round was the same way, ever charge was weighed on a dillon electronic scale that was on AC power and calibrated. I am a very experienced reloader, just not with hot 10mm. Thanks in advance,
Lee
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Last edited by Mitch_Rapp.45; 05-02-2009 at 14:45..
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Old 05-02-2009, 15:42   #84
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Mitch_Rapp.45, I would suggest the stronger recoil spring. The tuning of the sldie velocity could help in your situation, and provide slightly more lock time.

You mention the KKM barrel with a comp, this may have some affect.

Good luck!
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Old 05-03-2009, 17:17   #85
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Second Range Trip.

Went back to the range today and tried the following test loads:

NOS 135gr JHP, 1.275" OAL, 11.5gr 800X, WLP - Average 1,495fps.

NOS 135gr JHP, 1.260" OAL, 11.5gr 800X, CCI 350 - Chrono failure.

NOS 135gr JHP, 1.260" OAL, 12.0gr 800X, CCI 350 - Average 1,684fps.

All primers were equally flat with a consistent backflow into the primer striker slot. This series of loads, although it does not look like it, gave me a lot of data. Two particular things of note, 1) at 12.0gr, I have exceeded the 1,670fps in the manual with the same OAL listed for 14.5gr. 2) magnum primers do a much better job with 800X than I would have guessed - Seating .015" deeper, adding .5gr and switching from standard to magnum primers increased velocity ~190fps with no new signs of pressure.

I also walked away with a new question - Why not large rifle primers? If the idea behind large pistol magnum primers is to get maximum ignition, why not have the added benefit of a stronger primer cup? Right now, the only thing showing any sign of pressure is the primer.
Lee
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Old 05-03-2009, 19:41   #86
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I would do what Shadow suggested " tune your recoil spring". Besides the primer flatting, it would reduce the wear and tear on the gun. Just a thought.
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Old 05-05-2009, 19:23   #87
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Originally Posted by Mitch_Rapp.45 View Post
I also walked away with a new question - Why not large rifle primers? If the idea behind large pistol magnum primers is to get maximum ignition, why not have the added benefit of a stronger primer cup?
Large rifle primers are longer (taller) than large pistol primers, so they would stick out and thus wouldn't work. Small rifle primers are the same size as small pistol primers, but not so with large rifle and large pistol.
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Old 05-05-2009, 20:34   #88
Mitch_Rapp.45
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Originally Posted by SDGlock23 View Post
Large rifle primers are longer (taller) than large pistol primers, so they would stick out and thus wouldn't work. Small rifle primers are the same size as small pistol primers, but not so with large rifle and large pistol.
I noticed they are taller, but the Fed GM Match rifle primers I have seem to fit. I am a far way from wanting to try them, it is an interesting idea. I will say yesterday, I ripped a piece of Federal brass in half the hard way. I will be waiting till my Starline brass shows up to load anymore hot rounds.
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Old 05-06-2009, 08:57   #89
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Starline is good brass. I have some Top Brass too, good stuff.
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Old 06-05-2009, 19:31   #90
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Originally Posted by RyeDaddy View Post
Got out to fire a workup the other day with the Hornady 155 grain XTP and IMR 800-X, everyone's darling.

75 degrees here in Fort Worth.

Specifics:
G20, stock barrel with a Wolff 22 lb. recoil spring. (My LWD barrel is out having a black finish applied)
Bullets seated at 1.258" OAL
New Starline brass
Winchester LP primers
Lee factory crimp turned one full turn after contact with case mouth, so pretty heavy crimp

Rounded average velocities in FPS:

8.4 grains - 1120

8.6 grains - 1140

8.8 grains - 1170

9.0 grains - 1180

9.2 grains - 1220

9.4 grains - 1245

9.6 grains - 1260

9.8 grains - 1300

10.0 grains - 1345

10.2 grains - 1410

Extreme spreads were over 100 FPS starting at around 9.6 or so grains. Until then they were well within normal at around 20 FPS or so. Suggests to me that the common belief about using magnum primers in heavy loads is warranted. Thought maybe using a heavy crimp would help some. Most here seem to believe that 800-X warrants a mag primer all the time, and some say at least when above 9.0 grains. I have CCI 350's on hand and will continue working with this until I have it right where I want it.

No pressure signs evident with these tested loads, other than the expected case belly from the stock barrel. Switching to a magnum primer may change that, we'll see.
What's the set-up screen distance you're shooting from?

Bob
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Old 06-05-2009, 22:53   #91
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What's the set-up screen distance you're shooting from?

Bob
About 15', any less than that and it reads crazy numbers from the muzzle blast.
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Old 06-06-2009, 14:24   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SDGlock23 View Post
Large rifle primers are longer (taller) than large pistol primers, so they would stick out and thus wouldn't work. Small rifle primers are the same size as small pistol primers, but not so with large rifle and large pistol.
SDGlock23 is quite correct.

With the proper tooling, one can deepen the primer pocket on a case to take a LR primer, however.

Not saying I've tried this (you know I have ), but just as a warning, this does significantly weaken the web of the case by thinning the amount of brass in between the powder chamber and the primer pocket. I found that after repeated reloadings OR just one or two heavy loadings, there was a significant chance the thinned brass of the web in front of the primer pocket lets go, leaving you with an incredibly large flash hole. I sectioned one of the cases and discovered the significantly thinned area, and have since completely discontinued the practice. Not much is gained over a LP-Magnum primer anyway, unless you use LR-Magnum primers, but that's a whole 'nuther story...
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Old 07-02-2009, 22:28   #93
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10mm loads with 800x

i used once fired brass, 9.0 g of 800x 1.26 oal, cci lp primers, and hornaday action pistol 180 grain bullets. no case bulge out of a new bone stock glock 29 or a used glock 20. the case walls are nice a straight. this is a good no worry load. but remember load a few with less powder first!
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Old 07-02-2009, 22:31   #94
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i'm gonna work my way up. i just got my new 22lb spring for my glock 20!
i have a eaa witness match with a 22 lb spring i worked up to 10g of 800x no bulged cases but it really throws the brass
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Old 12-29-2009, 00:32   #95
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Forgive me I can't help myself...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uzvZ0Wc97o

If you are still just fishing around and don't own a 10mm yet, go get one.. (then mail me all your brass)

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Old 06-17-2010, 20:31   #96
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Beware heavy 800x loads in the 10mm!

I ran across this thread while browsing the site, and joined just so I could post MY 800x experience. Let me begin by saying this:
BEWARE HEAVY 800X LOADS IN THE 10MM!

Some years back, I picked up a free IMR Handloader's Guide For Smokeless Powders pamphlet at a local gunshop. As a new Model 20 owner, I was just beginning the process of working up loads for my new gun, and there, in the pamphlet, I see a load for 135 grain Nosler bullets and 14.5 grains 800X that gave velocities WAY higher than any other load I had seen for 135 grain bullets - namely, 1670 fps. Wow! Just Wow! The pamphlet has a date on the back of 1/97; the front cover says "Formerly Supplied By Du Pont". My previous version of that pamphlet was undated, had the DuPont name, and had no loads for either the 10mm, or for 800X.

So, of course I had to try it. I had a large quantity of once-fired Winchester brass, and was using Winchester large pistol primers at the time. I went out and bought a can of 800X and eventually I found a box of Nosler 135 grain bullets. Meanwhile I tried the load for 155 grain bullets. 11.5 grains under a 155 Hornady XTP gave 1395 fps, a good 80 fps slower that what the book said I might expect from the max load of 11.6, although in a 5" test barrel. There were no dramatic signs of excess pressure; case head measurements were in line with factory Winchester Silvertips 180 grain ammo that I was using as a comparison.

I should have guessed that it was not reasonable to expect to be able to use 3 more grains of powder with a 20 grain drop in bullet weight.

I soon found that 14.5 grains would not fit into the case when dropped from a powder measure. I got it to hold 14.0 by dropping the charges into a .45 ACP case on my other press and then pouring them slowly into the 10mm case as I tapped on it. Still, it would be a compressed load. I loaded up 10 of those and took them to the range. I know, stupid. Should have started a lot lower.

The first round gave no reading on the chrono. Recoil was stiff. The case was flung about 40 feet, and I couldn't find it easily. The second shot was 1780 fps, and I didn't see where that case landed either. The third shot blew up the gun.

The frame was torn from the top down for about an inch, the magazine was blown apart, the extractor disappeared. The trigger/ejector parts were bent way out of shape. The whole case head was just gone, and the rest of the case was still in the barrel. Fortunately I can still count to ten so I have eyes and all my fingers.

I wrote to IMR about this and never got a reply. I did notice that the load for 135 grain bullets with 800X was removed from the next edition of that pamphlet.

I sent the gun and the remnants of the magazine to Glock. They replaced the frame and the entire trigger group, and the magazine, for about $100, plus shipping. They warrantied the slide, as they said it had abnormal wear on the breech face, and didn't bother to charge for the extractor. The barrel was fine, I am still using it.

After the gun blew, I got down on hands and knees and searched, and eventually found the first two brass. They were both badly bulged (pregnant), with completely flat and leaking primers and some sign of brass being squeezed into the ejector hole. I'm guessing pressure was in excess of 60K. I pulled the bullets from the rest of those rounds and weighed the powder charges; they ran from 13.5 to 15.0 grains

When I got the gun back, I started working up a load starting at 11.5 grains, which had been safe with a 155 grain bullet, and I weighed all the charges I eventually settled on 12.5 as a very maximum load. That gave a .003 bulge in the case and 1521 fps. Once I had satisfied myself that the published velocities were not realistic, I abandoned further load development with the 135. I finished up that box of bullets and have bought no more. I used up the 800X with the 155 Hornady bullets.

My conclusion is that 800X does not meter uniformly enough to produce reliable charges unless weighed, and that at maximum loads and already high pressures, it is not forgiving of overcharges. I also believe that load data was a mistake - perhaps a typo.

Apparently it is too late to close the barn door; now that load has run away, and is being spread as gospel, even though it is no longer published. I believe it is dangerous, at least in the Glock, and should be approached with extreme caution, starting at least 3 grains low. Weigh your charges, work up in very small increments, not .5 grains. Do not ignore pressure signs like flattened primers and bulged cases, as the next thing is a blown case head.

I do not own the current Nosler or Hodgdon complete manual. A load for 800X and 135 grain bullets is not in the online manual. However the max load now given for 800x and 155 grain bullets is 9.8gr. How reasonable does 14.5 sound, considering that? 800X is not magic; the laws of physics still apply.

Griz
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Old 06-17-2010, 21:35   #97
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Griz, Welcome to GlockTalk! Also thank you for sharing your actual experience with the blown pistol using the 800X loads. I have read where people have used the loads as posted, although I couldn't bring myself to use it myself. I have cautioned poeple to strickly hand weigh this particular powder especially while working on the ragged edge of MAXIMUM! We are not able to do pressure testing with our firearms and are only guessing while so call reading primers and brass expansion.

And yes the laws of physics still apply with all powders and componets.

Be sure to check out the 10mmTalk Forum located at this link: http://www.ar15armory.com/forums/10m...rums-f187.html

Best regards!
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Old 07-27-2010, 09:55   #98
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10.5gr 800-x, 180gr XTP

From my G29 with stock length KKM bbl. CED Millenium chrono with IR sky screens. Gun was recently reconditioned in Smyrna, GA.
WIN cases fired 1x; 10.5gr IMR 800-X; CCI 350 primers; Hornady 180gr XTP; 1.260 OAL. All charges weighed out on an RCBS chargemaster.
Weather: 81 degrees F; 48% humidity; pressure 30.09". Altitude 600ft ASL

9 shots avg vel 1261; Avg fpe 635; SD 22;

Primers were still rounded at the edges, the primers had the rectangular imprint of the firing pin channel and the strike of the firing pin was wiped at the bottom. So it looks like the slide is unlocking pretty fast but nothing worse than some 357SIG primers I've seen. There were also marks from the ejector on the case heads.

I won't go any higher with the charge weight but I think these are safe in my gun.
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Old 07-29-2010, 19:50   #99
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I just tried 9.0,9.2,9.4,9.6, and 9,8gr. 800x over (5) ea. of 155gr. XTPs. using #350 CCI primers

G29 w/4.5" KKM barrel, 21# wolff springs.

I still do not have a chronometer (will work on that as soon as possible).

I was just comparing these loads to 12.1, 12.3, 12.5, 12.7, and 12.9 of Blue dot over 155gr.

Blue dot really has a "cannon" sound, where the 800x has a traditional loud "crack" non-magnum pistol sound.

For me, the 800x worked pretty well 9.4g+, not so well less than that. Groups were reasonably tight and the brass dropped in about the same place. I would not hesitate to load quite a bit hotter than "max" on this cartridge, working up, of course.

One of my thoughts about this powder is that it meters so crappy because the flakes are so large and so dense, I think you need a digital scale that will go down at least to the hundredths of a grain to get rounds to have consistent velocity.

I will confirm this later, but it was something I noticed regarding this powder - that, and the brass gets very hot after having shot with this (much hotter than Bluedot) powder.
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Old 07-30-2010, 17:56   #100
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However the max load now given for 800x and 155 grain bullets is 9.8gr. How reasonable does 14.5 sound, considering that? 800X is not magic; the laws of physics still apply.

Griz
Thank you very much for sharing that story. I have a bunch loaded at 14.3 gr in the safe that I have all but decided to pull. I have shot plenty of them at 14.0 + range without any indications of excess pressure, but there seems to be no point to shooting that projectile @ 1700 fps - other than it is fun. I think that you are correct to suspect 14.5 gr to be too high of a mark. I was suscpicious at first - hence the slow and careful hand-weighed workups. As I mentioned in another recent post, these loads are beginning to give me the creeps. Not because of any excess pressure indications, but because that charge level does not seem to "track" with other loads. I agree with your sentiment that it sorta defies logic.

800-X has never agreed with WLPs or 350s for me. Pressure symptoms rear their heads much earlier with those primers than with 300s. I have a couple pounds of 800-X left and a bunch of NOS 135 JHPs. I have some test lots at 11 to 12 gr that I may use for IDPA work if they provide satisfactory results. That way I can get rid of the 800-X that I have with a bunch of painstaking hand-weighed charges. I see no advantage to that powder. It really should be considered a non-metering powder; and BD, A9, and A7 give better results.

Hodgdon should really do the responsible thing and re-test that load. They do not stand behind the original data, but they haven't indicated that anything is known to be wrong with it.
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