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Old 08-07-2014, 10:00   #81
Marcus Unrealious
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So my take away is I should strive to cause the deaths of millions of people to have fulfilling life and a truly worthy person of the label "conservative" or alternatively I can mimic Barack Obama to win that title.
Hello Dana. Get some sleep my friend, your comprehension is really lagging. I also noticed that you did not directly answer the questions, you merely select excerpts that you can respond to in an effort to sound, well, conservative.

Those people had a direct influence on society of their time and thus modern society. It was specifically shown as a list where one person affected change within the masses. It demonstrates that a powerful idea and resolve to attain it can in fact prevail, for good or evil.

So your question of should you allow 100 million to die is idiotic at best, though I will answer it. No.

Now, please enlighten the masses as to how emulating BO is going to allow you to win any title? Are you asserting you look to him as a role model? That socialist lite is your ideal for America?

At times you come up with some solid ideas or concepts. But your 'conservatism' seems rife with angst and anger to how society is structured and many laws your must follow. We have been down this road before. You will complain but do nothing. Donate to a cause and say you did your share. I say thats BS. You have whined in numerous threads about what you don't like, but by your very admission say you don't have the time to do anything about it, mainly because your too busy getting yours. Dont like it? Act. Or stand aside while the rest of us do.
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Old 08-07-2014, 10:02   #82
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He didnt asnwer that the first time it was asked. It doesnt fit his little narrative about he is the true conservative...

He simply ignored it. Intellectual dishonesty at its finest.
Asked and answered, my friend. Apparently you either a) cant read, or b) cant understand.

Lets see now, of my questions posted to you, what have you answered? You sir, will make a fine young democrat.
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Old 08-07-2014, 10:05   #83
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No Sir, that is not what I said nor intended. What I am speaking of is forcing the RNC party at large to do the bidding of those they serve, not trying to sway democrats. Lets face some facts:

John McCain openly says he is a progressive. The folks in his realm do not often like what he does. So why is he still there when the majority he serves is in disagreement with him? He is simply democrat lite. It is because the voters there do not mobilize to change it.

On the other hand, Eric Cantor did the same. His constituents rallied and tossed him out. What I am saying is that the constituents non-action is what allows them to remain there.
On that you are correct, MU.
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Old 08-07-2014, 10:12   #84
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On that you are correct, MU.
Thanks TF. The problem is as I see it is we allow our own party to run over us. Unless we stand up and stand together, why should they change?
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Old 08-07-2014, 10:31   #85
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Imagine a gay firearms enthusiast who is in a long-term relationship. If you make that person choose between their guns and the possibility of being allowed to marry their partner, which do you think they will choose?
There must be at least five thousand folks reflective of that dynamic in the United States currently ...
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Old 08-07-2014, 11:14   #86
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There must be at least five thousand folks reflective of that dynamic in the United States currently ...
There are something like 8 million gays and lesbians in the US. You really think of that number only 0.0625% are gun owners?
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Old 08-07-2014, 11:34   #87
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Many on that long list were simply given credit for changes that were already in the wind or were inevitable.

There are no great people just great events and someone has to fill a slot. (not my words)
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Old 08-07-2014, 11:46   #88
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Start a thread asking about arguing with idiots - then set an example that answers the original question.


The thing is - many people (not me of course) can only see things from the perspective of what is good / bad for them.

Take a union member - no matter what facts are given about how destructive unions are to the nation - they can not get past the fact that -

They don't have to work as hard - and they get paid more -

So even when in the long run it ends up bankrupting companies and the loss of everyone's job - they still want to say - but they are good.

Same thing with social security. It is a horrible destructive / corrosive entitlement program - yet most that have paid a few thousand dollars of FICA taxes think - no really believe - they have EARNED the benefits and should be paid 10X the amount of what they paid in taxes - and that it is not even an entitlement benefit - even though it is called an entitlement in the legislation. They know better - because there is something in it for them - and the rest doesn't matter - because if it is good for them then it is good.

No amount of logic or facts or proof can convince most people that what is good for the country may be bad for them. They will stick to their position that it must be bad overall because it means they don't get as much free stuff - or they have to be responsible for themselves.

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Old 08-07-2014, 11:57   #89
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Still waiting for the answer to chained CPI as a way to help out future SS recipients.


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Old 08-07-2014, 13:17   #90
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There are something like 8 million gays and lesbians in the US. You really think of that number only 0.0625% are gun owners?
umm, what exactly are you trying to say?
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Old 08-07-2014, 13:27   #91
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Originally Posted by Z71bill View Post
Start a thread asking about arguing with idiots - then set an example that answers the original question.


The thing is - many people (not me of course) can only see things from the perspective of what is good / bad for them.

Take a union member - no matter what facts are given about how destructive unions are to the nation - they can not get past the fact that -

They don't have to work as hard - and they get paid more -

So even when in the long run it ends up bankrupting companies and the loss of everyone's job - they still want to say - but they are good.

Same thing with social security. It is a horrible destructive / corrosive entitlement program - yet most that have paid a few thousand dollars of FICA taxes think - no really believe - they have EARNED the benefits and should be paid 10X the amount of what they paid in taxes - and that it is not even an entitlement benefit - even though it is called an entitlement in the legislation. They know better - because there is something in it for them - and the rest doesn't matter - because if it is good for them then it is good.

No amount of logic or facts or proof can convince most people that what is good for the country may be bad for them. They will stick to their position that it must be bad overall because it means they don't get as much free stuff - or they have to be responsible for themselves.
Well, true to form I post then argue. Irony at it's finest.

In all actuality I am trying to get people to realize that remaining passive is still a choice, even if it hidden by the excuse it wouldn't change anything.

We have what the public allows us to have. But the saddest point in my mind is that it is the 'conservatives' that allow it by being passive and not engaging. You cannot blame this on democrats/liberals/progressives. They are what they are and they act out as such. On the other hand, a vast number of conservatives are what they are but take no action at all.

I bet Cantor was shocked when he got tossed, and good riddance. Now, lets get people to wake up and act, and do it about 45 more times. The politicians will eventually get the message. Look, they can become wealthy either way, but at least by doing their constituents bidding, we get something out of it.

And I fully agree that SS is a disaster. Any reference to it I make is only to aggravate a certain other, by claiming the proceeds from his and his heirs taxes as funding for me.

It does need to go away, as do hundreds if not thousands of other programs. But you have to begin somewhere and that starts with changing politicians so you can change the laws.
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Old 08-07-2014, 13:32   #92
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Still waiting for the answer to chained CPI as a way to help out future SS recipients.


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Out of respect for you I can give you my thumbnail though this is not the forum for it.

Chaining to the CPI will shrink the overall payments to many elderly which would be detrimental to them. And you would still have to take other steps as the chained CPI addresses only about 20% of the gap. It could also cause a subtle increase in taxes due to impacts on tax scales. And while substitution theory makes paper sense, the elderly are not talking about substituting cheaper paper towels for napkins. They are talking about substituting food for medicinal, housing for healthcare. With healthcare cost skyrocketing under Obamacare, it isn't a realistic solution to them. Of course you could raise the income limit ceiling on SS contributions, but that only hurts the workers who would pay more.

The real answer is the program, at some point and in some form needs to end, but compassionately with a cut off date for admission, as well as taper off for taxing.

If your looking for a full answer from me, take the question back to the cheap old people thread and I will answer you. This thread is about changing politics by changing politicians. Or send a PM.
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Old 08-07-2014, 14:27   #93
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Stand up, act and mobilize. You want change, be the change.
You know what, Marc? You're absolutely right. This country has lost its hope. What we need around here is some real change.

Hmm... hope and change. Hey, that's got a nice ring to it! Hope and change! C'mon, fellas, who's with me? Hope and change!! Yes, we can!
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Old 08-07-2014, 14:27   #94
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There are something like 8 million gays and lesbians in the US. You really think of that number only 0.0625% are gun owners?

Hi ya, DD! I suspect that the number you cited is actually under estimated. Bring it closer to around 8 - 9 %.
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Old 08-07-2014, 14:35   #95
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You know what, Marc? You're absolutely right. This country has lost its hope. What we need around here is some real change.

Hmm... hope and change. Hey, that's got a nice ring to it! Hope and change! C'mon, fellas, who's with me? Hope and change!! Yes, we can!
Amen Rizzo. The conservative base has been beaten back so hard and maligned by their own elected officials so long it does feel like they gave up. But that's exactly what they (dems/libs/progressives) want. The only way we lose is when we surrender which so many appear to have done.

If we hold our politicians accountable, and actually vote even when we don't have a great candidate, we still take action. But to skip a presidential election because we don't love the candidate? Insane. Even more so when we do it, then COMPLAIN about the result as all too many on this site do.

So lets make something clear, if you didn't vote in the last presidential election, YOU VOTED FOR OBAMA.

Hope and Change? HAH! Vote them out!
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Old 08-07-2014, 15:57   #96
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There's some serious lack of self awareness going on.
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Old 08-07-2014, 16:06   #97
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If we hold our politicians accountable, and actually vote even when we don't have a great candidate, we still take action. But to skip a presidential election because we don't love the candidate? Insane. Even more so when we do it, then COMPLAIN about the result as all too many on this site do.

So lets make something clear, if you didn't vote in the last presidential election, YOU VOTED FOR OBAMA.

Hope and Change? HAH! Vote them out!
It's not insane. You don't HAVE to vote for anyone, and it's perfectly reasonable to not vote for someone you don't like.

That's the problem, though. Elections have become not to vote for who you want in office, but who you don't want in office. I held my nose in '08 and voted for McCain (even though the thought of Palin as VP made me shudder) and again in '12, when I held my nose and voted for that flip-flopping closet gun-grabber SOB Romney. The only reason I voted for these people at all is because I DIDN'T want Obama in office.

I have no problem with someone saying to hell with all the candidates and just staying home. It seems like nowadays, men of so-called "presidential timber" are mostly all bark and deadwood, spewing empty promises and lies to anyone gullible enough to believe them anyway, so it's easy to see why people ask "what's the point?" Maybe one of these days we'll see a candidate that I actually WANT to vote for because I want HIM in office, but let's just say I've had more realistic daydreams.
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Old 08-07-2014, 16:06   #98
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There's some serious lack of self awareness going on.
Hmmmm. Directed to me, GG? Expand, please.
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Old 08-07-2014, 16:12   #99
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It's not insane. You don't HAVE to vote for anyone, and it's perfectly reasonable to not vote for someone you don't like.

That's the problem, though. Elections have become not to vote for who you want in office, but who you don't want in office. I held my nose in '08 and voted for McCain (even though the thought of Palin as VP made me shudder) and again in '12, when I held my nose and voted for that flip-flopping closet gun-grabber SOB Romney. The only reason I voted for these people at all is because I DIDN'T want Obama in office.

I have no problem with someone saying to hell with all the candidates and just staying home. It seems like nowadays, men of so-called "presidential timber" are mostly all bark and deadwood, spewing empty promises and lies to anyone gullible enough to believe them anyway, so it's easy to see why people ask "what's the point?" Maybe one of these days we'll see a candidate that I actually WANT to vote for because I want HIM in office, but let's just say I've had more realistic daydreams.
Perhaps, Rizzo. But lets look at the alternatives. When not engaged in the political process, and not attempting to make changes in the municipal, state and national levels what rights do people feel they have to complain? To abstain is to surrender that right since you didn't try and fix it.

The tradition role of sending the RNC money and holding your breath that they work for you IS the problem. Likewise, the traditional role of electing someone to Congress then going on autopilot is the same. We need direct participation, direct contact, rallying those who are like minded to us to go vote, and at that get their friends to vote as well.

Look, say what you want about Romney, but he would have done a fraction of the damage that BO has.

And oddly, I am less worried about Palin then I would have been about McCain. In fact, I am pretty sure that Romney would have far out performed McCain. My opinions, your mileage may vary. But at least I am in the process. And thank you for being the same.
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Old 08-07-2014, 16:30   #100
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It's not insane. You don't HAVE to vote for anyone, and it's perfectly reasonable to not vote for someone you don't like.

That's the problem, though. Elections have become not to vote for who you want in office, but who you don't want in office...

Riz, in 1860 A. Lincoln only won 39.65% of the vote. In other words, what you are lamenting is nothing new politically in the USA.
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