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Old 08-06-2014, 10:55   #21
Gator Monroe
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Originally Posted by Marcus Unrealious View Post
OK, let me ask this. I can understand your view, but do you think you will change one of them to an alternate view? Would the effort not be better spent locating and motivating those with the similar view to act out on the election process?

Thats kind of my point. You will not change their views, so why waste the energy?
Because the sooner posters at FIREARM FORUM BOARDS realize that Democrats & Constitutionalist 2A Supporting Republican Conservatives are not the same and that if they hold their nose & vote GOP that their back yard pot grows & bedrooms will be relatively safe ,but if Democrats get the House & retain the senate & & have 3 SCOTUS picks prior to inauguration of next POTUS 2A most assuredly will not be SAFE...
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Old 08-06-2014, 10:56   #22
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OK, let me ask this. I can understand your view, but do you think you will change one of them to an alternate view? Would the effort not be better spent locating and motivating those with the similar view to act out on the election process?

Thats kind of my point. You will not change their views, so why waste the energy?
Because the sooner posters at FIREARM FORUM BOARDS realize that Democrats & Constitutionalist 2A Supporting Republican Conservatives are not the same and that if they hold their nose & vote GOP that their back yard pot grows & bedrooms will be relatively safe ,but if Democrats get the House & retain the senate & have 3 SCOTUS picks prior to inauguration of next POTUS 2A most assuredly will not be SAFE...
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Old 08-06-2014, 10:59   #23
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do you think you will change one of them to an alternate view?
Nope, not unless you teach them at an early age, which is what liberals have been doing for a long time to your children .

Look at the results, kids in school, college etc. have no responsibility or accountability for anything nowadays

Get your kids out of Govt schools
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Old 08-06-2014, 11:03   #24
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Reminds me of this quote that my brother has memorized and will often recite after a couple of bourbons.

It is the referral to "baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men" that worries me at times .... whether its on a gun board or in my town politics or even just on the front sidewalk.

" A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious.
But it cannot survive treason from within. an enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and he carries his banners openly. But the traitor moves among those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not traitor, he speaks in the accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their garments, and he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of a city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist, A murderer is less to be feared."

Marcus Tullius Cicero
Ahh, yes. The lawlessness is different now, as it is more pronounced and indeed in within the very ranks of our politicians.

Look at those in positions of esteem. We have a senator who won her position even after the public finds out that she lied about her Native American heritage. Even more with lower scruples sit in the ranks. And we herald them as leaders, the run our nation, the ignore the laws. You have terrorists who are respected elders in learning institutions. You have bankers who committed crimes, yet were rewarded with bonuses. You have a congress that passes laws they have never read. Things are different now, it is not like before in so many ways.

Yet, divided we will never displace them from their seats. So while we argue about Chris Kyle and Jesse Venture, worry about whats up with the Kardashians, and listen to Hollywood mouth off on their opinion of the day, the needed work to change this goes undone.
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Old 08-06-2014, 11:22   #25
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Folks, I posit that those of you arguing endlessly about petty things should attempt to come together on issues that are of relevance to our nation. Division is killing our nation.
OK. I will follow your lead.

Since it is a gun board:

Gun Control. How do you propose that the two sides "come together" on this issue?

Abortion. How do you propose that the two sides "come together" on this issue?

Gay Marriage. How do you propose that the two sides "come together" on this issue?

Obamacare: How do you propose that the two sides "come together" on this issue?

Fracking: How do you propose that the two sides "come together" on this issue?

Ner Proposed EPA regulations: How do you propose that the two sides "come together" on this issue?

There are more issues, but these are a good start.
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Old 08-06-2014, 11:29   #26
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Originally Posted by Gator Monroe View Post
Because the sooner posters at FIREARM FORUM BOARDS realize that Democrats & Constitutionalist 2A Supporting Republican Conservatives are not the same and that if they hold their nose & vote GOP that their back yard pot grows & bedrooms will be relatively safe
Imagine a gay firearms enthusiast who is in a long-term relationship. If you make that person choose between their guns and the possibility of being allowed to marry their partner, which do you think they will choose?
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Old 08-06-2014, 11:50   #27
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OK. I will follow your lead.

Since it is a gun board:

Gun Control. How do you propose that the two sides "come together" on this issue?

Abortion. How do you propose that the two sides "come together" on this issue?

Gay Marriage. How do you propose that the two sides "come together" on this issue?

Obamacare: How do you propose that the two sides "come together" on this issue?

Fracking: How do you propose that the two sides "come together" on this issue?

Ner Proposed EPA regulations: How do you propose that the two sides "come together" on this issue?

There are more issues, but these are a good start.
Excellent question, Dana. My observations were a bit more related to national interest, but the same applies to these topics as well.

First, we have to make a baseline assumption that violence in any form is not a solution. But the clashes forming get closer to it every day.

Second, rather then whine and moan on a board about such topics, arguing with those who dissent who will never be swayed in their views, get active in a meaningful way.

It is just so easy for Americans to gain access to a forum on FB, GT and a multitude of other websites. And many of the people on there assume they are doing something with their grievances. But are they, really?

Get engaged, and use the energy expended on arguing to directly influence those who can implement change. If the energy for each post here were redirected to send a note to Congress, we could have an impact. Instead, we argue among ourselves.

For those who say Obama is lawless, do they take their spare time to write, call and fax Congress to hold him accountable? I dare say that simply being low in an opinion poll is not enough.

The next item is that many of those issues belong at the state level, not a national level. Nullification is a real solution if enough people get behind it. So is changing the constitution at the state and local levels. But instead of these 'difficult' acts, men choose to bicker among themselves and not act in a meaningful way.

And since you brought up the gun board, to all the patriots who have the big talk about defense, pry it from their hands and watering the tree of liberty, I would state that it is a pipe dream that any of that will come to pass. And if the need did arise, it will be borne due to mans inaction in the process now. I would also posit that it is far easier to claim you will 'be a patriot' then to actually do it. I for one will not sacrifice my livelihood and family because other chose not to be involved.

Wake up your peers and constituents. Get them engaged and out to vote. We know the liberals drove bus loads of people to the voting stations. Did any among you do the same and bring a bus load of seniors from a nursing home to vote?

Lets face it, Organizing for America has a steady stream of daily emails going out to millions of adoring fans. They are organized, as are the liberal politicians. Conservatives? Unless you hit a special interest nerve, nothing. No real organization, no obvious leaders, and even worse, a voter base who could have defeated most of whats going on by simply having voted.

NOW is the time to act, mobilize and start to hold Congress accountable and prepare for the next vote. I am saying we need to move in unity with those who share similar views. Not try to change the views of the other side. That is what I mean when I say come together.
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Old 08-06-2014, 12:29   #28
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Marcus, what I think you are really missing the big picture on is the fact that most people, like myself, have come to the realization that there is no solution to be gained by voting for any particular party. Both parties, all parties, are just as corrupt as the other and regardless of who is in power there is a plan for this country and our votes have no control over the direction in which it is going.

When you say you want us to become more active towards changing things within the government, the only thing in my mind that can possibly bring about the necessary change is revolution.

I will state emphatically that it is impossible to change the current system of government without first tearing down completely what presently exists. Until that happens, writing your congressmen & women, or what handle you pull at the voting booth, will amount to nothing more than wasted time. Just like posting about, or whining & moaning on internet boards, will not change anything either. Either activity is a lost cause.

The American public needs to begin to see things for how they really are. We are all shackled slaves in cells. Our masters name is Tax and he sees over us with a strong pimp-hand. He allows you to live and breathe under the pretense that you have a say in things.. You do not.

I find it refreshing that you believe that any action taken by any of us, or all of us combined, without the use of guns/armament/force could or would have any affect on the governing body of this country. Refreshing & naive.
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Old 08-06-2014, 12:41   #29
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Originally Posted by DanaT View Post
OK. I will follow your lead.

Since it is a gun board:

Gun Control. How do you propose that the two sides "come together" on this issue?

Abortion. How do you propose that the two sides "come together" on this issue?

Gay Marriage. How do you propose that the two sides "come together" on this issue?

Obamacare: How do you propose that the two sides "come together" on this issue?

Fracking: How do you propose that the two sides "come together" on this issue?

Ner Proposed EPA regulations: How do you propose that the two sides "come together" on this issue?

There are more issues, but these are a good start.
Yes. Some issues are inherently divisive.
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Old 08-06-2014, 12:43   #30
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Thirty years ago if someone had said there will be concealed carrying available in every state they would have been called delusional. Some changes come incrementally, a small piece at a time.
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Old 08-06-2014, 12:49   #31
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Get engaged, and use the energy expended on arguing to directly influence those who can implement change. If the energy for each post here were redirected to send a note to Congress, we could have an impact. Instead, we argue among ourselves.

For those who say Obama is lawless, do they take their spare time to write, call and fax Congress to hold him accountable?
I dont have time to give a long winded response, but letters to congress are nothing more than a joke.

Here is an example...

http://www.denverpost.com/headlines/...ng-picketed-by


Polis was their Knight in shining armor and spent a lot of his own money pushing anti fracking. He abandoned his hard core support people for political gain.

Politicians only care about their careers; they dont care about a letter.
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Old 08-06-2014, 12:52   #32
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We are predisposed to argue.....sad but true.
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Old 08-06-2014, 12:59   #33
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I find it refreshing that you believe that any action taken by any of us, or all of us combined, without the use of guns/armament/force could or would have any affect on the governing body of this country. Refreshing & naive.
Hi Kawa!

I would have to disagree here. Is one to just give up because no change is possible? You of course realize that 10% of a population can set the direction of a nation, right?

With due respect, I do not accept it as futile or naive. Nor do I believe any form of violence will overcome it. Violence would necessarily unleash draconian efforts to stop it, resulting is all chances of change being squashed.

Conservatives can rally other conservatives to turn out the vote. We can discuss the issues at hand with other conservatives to bring truth to their world view. My point is that arguing with those who are not conservative or don't agree is pointless, as is arguing pointless issues among ourselves.

Get to people with an open mind and get them engaged. That is how change can come about.
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Old 08-06-2014, 13:07   #34
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I dont have time to give a long winded response, but letters to congress are nothing more than a joke.

Here is an example...

http://www.denverpost.com/headlines/...ng-picketed-by


Polis was their Knight in shining armor and spent a lot of his own money pushing anti fracking. He abandoned his hard core support people for political gain.

Politicians only care about their careers; they dont care about a letter.
Hello Dana

I am saddened to think people such as yourself see it as a futile cause or effort. It is not.

The other 'side' wins when the majority in opposition give up. Properly vet people. get trusted people into local governments. Don't vote on words but on deeds. It can be changed, if the will of the people is there.

Now, something tells me you would disagree with me on a number of levels just to disagree. But let me ask, what have you personally done to mobilize the vote? To take issues and truth to like minded around you or in your sphere of influence? Have you merely given up and stopped trying?

My friend, my world view is worlds apart from you. Just as I do not subscribe to having to bow to the almighty HR teams bureaucracy, nor do I bow down to apathy. Its apathetic attitudes that are causing our problems. Obviously you gave up and I have not.
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Old 08-06-2014, 17:10   #35
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Hello Dana

I am saddened to think people such as yourself see it as a futile cause or effort. It is not.
Lets make the unrealistic scenario that EVERY member of the NRA wrote a letter to Nanci Pelosi stating their opposition to gun control. What would that amount of letters do to change her mind.

On the opposite end, how many letters would it take for people to send to you to get you to change your mind about some of you deepest held convictions?

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The other 'side' wins when the majority in opposition give up. Properly vet people. get trusted people into local governments. Don't vote on words but on deeds. It can be changed, if the will of the people is there.
I agree here. Local government is much easier to change BUT the further away the government is, the harder it is to affect what they do. As an example the county I live in doesnt want emissions testing of cars. The State mandated it (we didnt have it until about 4 years ago). The county fought against it, but the State wanted their Federal Dollars for fighting pollution.


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Now, something tells me you would disagree with me on a number of levels just to disagree. But let me ask, what have you personally done to mobilize the vote?
Time is something I dont have. Money is something I do. I give money to causes (and not just political...but I do donate to political causes) that I want to see furthered.

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To take issues and truth to like minded around you or in your sphere of influence? Have you merely given up and stopped trying?
Like minded people dont need convincing, by definition they already agree with me.

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My friend, my world view is worlds apart from you. Just as I do not subscribe to having to bow to the almighty HR teams bureaucracy, nor do I bow down to apathy. Its apathetic attitudes that are causing our problems. Obviously you gave up and I have not.
No. I am realistic. I believe almost all non-local level politicians are in it for themselves and using the office to further satisfy their needs.

If you claim that is unrealistic please explain something to me.

Why would ANYONE spend $1B to get a job that pays $400K a year?

What actual jobs has President Obama held in his life?

What is President Obama's pay rate?

What is Obamas net worth?

How does someone with Obama's pay get the net worth he has in so little time on the job.

The same exact questions can be asked of the Clinton?

How do congressmen go into the position being upper middle class and come out being very wealthy on a $150K a year job?

Look at what the net worth of congressmen is:

http://www.opensecrets.org/news/2014...-million-plus/
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Old 08-06-2014, 17:49   #36
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As long as they keep the common folk focused on bashing each other over differences of opinion, the foxes can raid the hen house without interruption.

What those in control already know, and the public at large needs to realize is that we, all of us, regardless of our political or social views, have a lot more in common with each other than we do with the no good Mother #$%^&*( that are pushing the buttons and pulling the strings. We the people, if united, hold unimaginable power, that is why we must be kept divided. But, regardless of our allegiances, affiliations, or worldviews, if it all falls apart because not enough of us wake up, our fate will be the same.
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Old 08-06-2014, 17:49   #37
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Thirty years ago if someone had said there will be concealed carrying available in every state they would have been called delusional. Some changes come incrementally, a small piece at a time.
Amen. Gun rights in the modern era is proof that conservatives can fight for causes incrementally. All or nothing is a dangerous proposition.
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Old 08-06-2014, 17:56   #38
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Dana, I simply will not debate with you about how things cannot be changed. You think money is the issue? Your wrong. It plays a part, but it is not the issue.

And for people that agree with you? Tell me, how did Obama win? Not because of overwhelming support, but because the conservatives simply did not show up in numbers.

Mobilizing is important, and since like minded people will already be inclined to agree the issue is to get them mobilized to act.

I have not said a word about trying to change others minds from the liberal side. But if 120 million conservatives flooded Congressional conservatives with their sentiments, they would in fact act out.

Apparently resignation to things not changing, claiming it won't help is in some peoples blood. As for time, perhaps if you were a little less in pursuit of whats in it for you and a little more for whats in it for the country, you would make some time.

The playbook is simple, get trusted people in at local levels. Gauge their votes. Elevate them to a national platform. Teach students about the founding of the nation and truths. All of that takes time, unfortunately. Something you do not seem willing to invest because 'your busy'.

I am busy, and I donate a lot, most likely much more than you between foundations and candidates. But I find the time anyway. Sending a check to the RNC is not going to work.

This very thread illustrates my position. Nearly all who have responded have said that things cannot be changed, yourself included. Thats a defeatist attitude adopted with zero effort. I simple expect more from an educated individuals who claim love for the country. The saddest part is that is precisely WHY we are in the situation we are in, though about what I expect from the Gen X crowd.

That is the apathy I speak off. It is your mindset that is the problem with the nation.

Do what thou wilt. I will pursue solutions and make waves to accomplish it. Even if you won't.
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Old 08-06-2014, 17:57   #39
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As long as they keep the common folk focused on bashing each other over differences of opinion, the foxes can raid the hen house without interruption.

What those in control already know, and the public at large needs to realize is that we, all of us, regardless of our political or social views, have a lot more in common with each other than we do with the no good Mother #$%^&*( that are pushing the buttons and pulling the strings. We the people, if united, hold unimaginable power, that is why we must be kept divided. But, regardless of our allegiances, affiliations, or worldviews, if it all falls apart because not enough of us wake up, our fate will be the same.
I applaud your view, thats the division I speak of. We bicker among ourselves, and do not accomplish anything relevant. Dana claims to be conservative, yet all hope is lost in his eyes. He feels money given will offset actual effort. So here we are, divided because he doesn't think it can happen. He does not believe WE the people can influence outcome. Tell me, in what would would 100 million faxes and another 100 million phone calls to conservatives in Congress NOT work? But it is the apathy of the sentiment it wont matter that prevents it from happening. Shame on those who claim to be conservative Americans to give such a weak showing.
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Old 08-06-2014, 17:58   #40
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We are predisposed to argue.....sad but true.
Do you have a link for this spurious assertion?

Define "argue".

Unless you are a professional arguer, you have no ground to stand on in the first place. Don't bother arguing the fact, because I've been arguing with argumentative arguers arguably longer than anyone here.
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