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Old 08-12-2014, 18:47   #261
Tiro Fijo
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Originally Posted by Swampfox762 View Post
Honestly man....you are just all "double talk" to me.
You talk like a Liberal, no matter what you call yourself.
I'm a constitutionalist. Follow and respect the constitution. SECURE the Borders!!!

AND, what is up with you and get rid of SS?? How about get rid of the Millions of welfare suck butts First! How about a "Flat Tax"???

Your priorities are seriously ****ed up marcus.

Talkin with you is like trying to nail jello to the wall. There's just no point.

Talk about siht that matters about our country...you're not "talkin". It's more like liberal "can't we all just get along" CRAP.

NO, we can't.

Anybody That is THAT fundimentaly different in their opinions of what we need to do to put our country back together from what this Marxist has done in his 2 terms....sorry.

There is just no "talking".
And only 14 posts.
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Old 08-12-2014, 19:27   #262
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Originally Posted by Marcus Unrealious View Post


I meant ti have a "no" before the word concept. Look, its a pretty simple situation.
Well, thanks so much for clearing that up.......
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Old 08-12-2014, 19:56   #263
Marcus Unrealious
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Originally Posted by Swampfox762 View Post
Honestly man....you are just all "double talk" to me.
You talk like a Liberal, no matter what you call yourself.
I'm a constitutionalist. Follow and respect the constitution. SECURE the Borders!!!

AND, what is up with you and get rid of SS?? How about get rid of the Millions of welfare suck butts First! How about a "Flat Tax"???

Your priorities are seriously ****ed up marcus.

Talkin with you is like trying to nail jello to the wall. There's just no point.

Talk about siht that matters about our country...you're not "talkin". It's more like liberal "can't we all just get along" CRAP.

NO, we can't.

Anybody That is THAT fundimentaly different in their opinions of what we need to do to put our country back together from what this Marxist has done in his 2 terms....sorry.

There is just no "talking".
A whole lot of bottled up anger in you, my friend.

Look, you just lashed out when I said I agreed with you. That is a not voice of reason. What you don't seem to like hearing is that we can fix it. I tried to suggest ways, you do not hear them. I have tried to get people involved in meaningful ways that can repair the nation, they, as you get angry.

If conservatives continue to operate on an animal instinct level, they will not have the chance to actually make any changes against intellectual foes. We have to THINK and PLAN, not RANT.

Libertarians have completely unrealistic attitudes when it comes to things like SS. There will never be a day when it is just cut off. Many go so far as to say let the seniors die, they don't care. Fat chance of that ever passing. Does nothing get done at all if it all cannot be ended tomorrow?

Rather than whine, be angry and have tantrums, we should work on rational ways to actually cause change. You don't like mine? I have been asking for others, but I hear none. My priorities and not messed up (not your word) in the least. I am simply realistic about what can be done, incrementally, to get to the goal.

The longer I hear rants like that, I can understand why some talk about angry white males.

I have no doubt that you love the nation, and want the best for it. You could do great things to help the nation if you got realistic about how to go about it. Instead, I just hear anger.

For your information, I have been to border protests. What have you actually done about it?

Too many people on here are simply angry and looking for a fight, not actually making any real changes. To act like animals is to invite slaughter. The progressives have divided the conservative base as they planned to. Does no one see that? And the first time violence comes out, the right wing will be completely vilified.

If conservatives cannot get along with those who AGREE with them, what chance do they stand in actually making change against those who don't.

That is not to say give in to progressives, it is to say create realistic goals that can be accomplished incrementally and stop the all or nothing rhetoric.
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Old 08-12-2014, 20:06   #264
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Originally Posted by Tiro Fijo View Post
And only 14 posts.
Yup.

Have ya read any of my other posts? What. Is there something wrong with what I said?
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Old 08-12-2014, 20:37   #265
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A whole lot of bottled up anger in you, my friend.

Look, you just lashed out when I said I agreed with you.
Anger? Not at all Friend. My anger is all gone. I'm just sick and tired of people that are not angry, about what is happening to our country.

"Lash out at you". "Lash out"....wow...you're a real sensitive person ain't ya. No, I just spoke my opinion. To YOU, it was "lashing out", cause it don't conform to your way of talking or your opinion.

Just another "weapon" people like use, against people like me,....try to intimidate, and make me out to be the bad guy for..."Lashing out" at you...

when All I was really doing is expressing my opinion. Yet you...and people like you....use termonoligy like "Lashing out", to misquote, and misrepresent responses that you don't agree with.

I'm Just Fed up with people like you, that talk...and don't really say ****?

You don't agree with me Marcus. You really don't, and you know it.

I'm a Believer in following the constitution. You're a believer in talkkin BS.

Focus and speak marcus.... about some of the Points I mentioned. The Constitution. Obamacare...Socialized medicine...by 51 democrats. Our Border Security .

Tell me..."my friend"...like I told you...WHAT do YOU Believe in. You won't.

And YES...Tiro Fijo, 14 posts. ALL respectful. You have a problem with my posts?

Or my Opinion?

One thing about talking with me. You Will Know my opinion. I'm not Jello, like marcus. I want to "get along", but I also want My opinion respected. Not covered up or non reported by the liberal media.

That's hard to do, talking with democrats.
14 posts. Lookin forward to a lot more. On my opinion, AND the Greatest Handgun out there!! The GLOCK!!!
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Old 08-12-2014, 20:52   #266
Marcus Unrealious
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Anger? Not at all Friend. My anger is all gone. I'm just sick and tired of people that are not angry, about what is happening to our country.

"Lash out at you". "Lash out"....wow...you're a real sensitive person ain't ya. No, I just spoke my opinion. To YOU, it was "lashing out", cause it don't conform to your way of talking or your opinion.

Just another "weapon" people like use, against people like me,....try to intimidate, and make me out to be the bad guy for..."Lashing out" at you...

when All I was really doing is expressing my opinion. Yet you...and people like you....use termonoligy like "Lashing out", to misquote, and misrepresent responses that you don't agree with.

I'm Just Fed up with people like you, that talk...and don't really say ****?

You don't agree with me Marcus. You really don't, and you know it.

I'm a Believer in following the constitution. You're a believer in talkkin BS.

Focus and speak marcus.... about some of the Points I mentioned. The Constitution. Obamacare...Socialized medicine...by 51 democrats. Our Border Security .

Tell me..."my friend"...like I told you...WHAT do YOU Believe in. You won't.

And YES...Tiro Fijo, 14 posts. ALL respectful. You have a problem with my posts?

Or my Opinion?

One thing about talking with me. You Will Know my opinion. I'm not Jello, like marcus. I want to "get along", but I also want My opinion respected. Not covered up or non reported by the liberal media.

That's hard to do, talking with democrats.
14 posts. Lookin forward to a lot more. On my opinion, AND the Greatest Handgun out there!! The GLOCK!!!
Yes, lashing out.

I completely agree with your opinions and the restoration of the country. What I disagree with is the means, because I have not heard any plan what so ever.

So let’s start over;

I do not believe that lobbying Congress with emails, calls and faxes is pointless. Do you?

I do not believe that getting involved with local politics is pointless. Do you?

I believe we need to worry less about the progressive democrats, and worry more about the lousy republicans. Do you?

I believe that the major things that need to be changed can not possibly be done in one big end it all effort. Do you?

Incremental gains are how we need to proceed. Obamacare can be beaten back, but it many small battles to win the war.
Social Security can be ended. But it will need to be done in a way that does not harm the elderly while tapering off.

The above holds true for the welfare system.

If you agree with me, then you disagree with my detractors here. And if you do not, please explain your plan.

Now, if that makes me a socialist / liberal / whatever you want to call it, so be it. The facts are many here disagree with pretty much all I have said above. They complain it is hard, it is pointless, it is not enough. Yet not one can give me a plan and tell me a reasonable alternative to accomplishing things. And that is exactly what I am still waiting to hear.
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Old 08-12-2014, 21:01   #267
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Originally Posted by Marcus Unrealious View Post
Yes, lashing out.


Now, if that makes me a socialist / liberal / whatever you want to call it, so be it.

Thanks bud...Finally...you admit what you ARE. we all knew it.

You and I have no need for further discussion.
Vote for billary in 16.
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Old 08-13-2014, 03:33   #268
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Thanks bud...Finally...you admit what you ARE. we all knew it.

You and I have no need for further discussion.
Vote for billary in 16.
I feel badly for you, my friend. If wanting to end SS and welfare, get conservatives active in the fight, kick out the progressive republicans, gain back the house, senate and executive branches, secure the borders, end amnesty and restore fiscal responsibility is anything other than conservative, I cannot being to imagine what your policy is like.

Perhaps you can tell me? Because you didn't answer any of my questions, I am not sure you even read them. I would really like to know, because it seems like you believe a scorched earth type of politics is the answer. Because if you answer is violence and over throw, sorry. Thats not an answer that is good for America.
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Old 08-14-2014, 11:50   #269
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Hi AC!
Another fun post, thanks!

Sorry for the delay, I had a series of meetings to tend to.
Hey buddy, sorry for my own delay in responding.


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As a psychiatrist, Dr. Hawkins model of consciousness is indeed a bit of a marvel. But it also impresses on me numerous concerns I have for all of mankind.

If the lower levels of consciousness include Shame, Guilt, Hate, Apathy, Grief, Fear, Anger Desire and Pride, is it then true the majority of civilization resides in the lower levels and thus unable to find happiness and thus peace?
Indeed it is a marvel to say the least; it's been a huge help to me personally.

In short, yes, at present, most fail to find lasting happiness and peace in this life. The good news is that according to Doc, humanity is on a relatively rapid upward trend in overall consciousness level. Since the dawn of recorded history, the overall calibration level of mankind has been well under 200, the critical line between the non-integrous and the integrous, which is directly correlated with rates of happiness/peace, but less than 30 years ago this line was finally crossed; IIRC it correlated, but was not caused by the fall of the Berlin Wall.

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Perhaps when people get to a point of enough pain they look for answers, but for the most part the average person will live a mediocre life while tolerating the pains they bring on themselves by not evolving.
Unfortunately, yes.

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Since these lower levels are for the most part dominated by falsehood, and thus the majority of those in them are unable to see truth, does civilization as a whole have any chance of reaching a meaningful peace?
With the crossing of the dividing line, yes, I'd say humanity absolutely has a good chance, moreso now than ever. As with anything, there remains large individual and national variation of this for the time being.

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We see many examples of all of this on GT. Operating at Ego dominated layers, people are all too willing and prepared to argue their points without any thought of all about self-realization and that they could in fact be wrong. It is as if these lower levels are actually dominated by instinctual acts associated with animal survival. Indeed, the people stuck in these levels seem to be acting out under animal instinct, seeking either pleasure, predation or gain, wouldn't you say?
Sounds like you've got it exactly; I find it a little hard to process such thinking at times myself, but I do try to at least be kind and compassionate about it.

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And if true, are these folks unable to develop an honest dialog with themselves, let alone others, so that they could in fact increase their consciousness? Are they not allowing themselves to respond through emotional centers before the intelligence and cognition centers are even aware of the concept being examined?
These conversations can be very difficult and painful, if not downright impossible for those who aren't prepared to have them, yes.

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And if that is true, will they not then merely use others as an object towards the means of personal survival, such as ‘I won the argument’…
That does indeed seem to be prevailing attitude among a great many, doesn't it?


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As such, it seems they do not evolve because they are stuck in an instinctual, animal response model where cognition centers are never activated, further precluding their growth. And then, the cycle continues because they have not developed enough pain to actually take introspect into the equation as a means to end the non existent pain. An example:

Person D says something on a message board. It is countered with an alternative position. Being fearful of survival, Person D’s response is then formulated in the animal / instinctual response center of the mind, causing terse words and a barrage of entries, all in the support of the said position. But because there is not any real pain as a response stimulus, say a punch in the nose, the pain is bearable and thus Person D has no need for introspect at that time as an evolutionary means to end the pain. He then becomes unable to open his mind to even examine the alternatives. Because of the repeated cycle of fight or flight has not materialized, Person D has free reign to continue that path without maturing, or ascending to a higher consciousness where he could better deal with the issues. Person D continues to believe his is the right answer, when in fact does not even know the evolved question being asked.

Would that Pretty well sum up the process?
To a degree, yes, but the question seems to imply that pain is the only means of evolution. You might really enjoy/benefit from Martin Seligman's books on positive psychology; in short, there are a great number of positive motivating factors for the evolution of consciousness, not just negative ones. There is both the carrot and the stick, one might say.

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In my mind, it explains why people are so short tempered on the internet. Because there is no physical consequence to force evolution. So they remain in the lower levels of consciousness.
There is definitely pain, and there is definitely physical consequence both positive and negative for evolving. As to why some remain stuck....I don't know exactly, but the general gist of it would be they remain dominated by the non-integrous, and on some level seem to believe that's all they're worth, and that thus they deserve to suffer more than they deserve to be happy, healthy, and healed.

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At that, it creates significant concern with me as those very same people in a time of truly intense fight or flight circumstance will only further regress into the lower levels of consciousness acting out in very exaggerated ways compared to the reality of the then perceived threat. I concern myself that will happen because the entire time they have allowed themselves to be controlled by the basic instincts of survival, even when no real threat was present. Conditioned so, their instinct may not allow them to operate at a higher level, a more discerning way when the circumstance may well demand it.
My understanding is that our higher reasoning centers were basically grafted onto the lower "fight or flight" ones. As such. this does remain an issue even for the more evolved, though it is increasingly less dominant amongst them.

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Now, you previously noted:

It is concerning, as those stuck in lower levels of consciousness have not developed the ability to discern eternal truths, merely the black and white answer compared to whatever internal filters they use to develop their opinions. Could I see a ‘libertarian’ taking millions to death in their pursuit of ideals such as immediate cessation of SS? Sure. But the same can be said of democrats, republicans, socialists and communists in their causes.

Now, the really concerning issue is that many of these people carry. And with such a short fuse over the internet, how well will they respond in a critical situation? If they operate at instinctual levels, how dangerous are they to society as a whole when everything is filtered through animal instinct and not cognitive centers?

Indeed, I may well be surrounded by troglodyte's....

I used to find it very concerning indeed, and I still do to a certain extent. However, I've surrendered it into God's/the Universe's hands; all my worries and fears won't help the situation at all, and will only make me miserable in the meantime. In more practical terms, as many great spiritual teachers including Gandhi have advocated, I work on being the change I wish to be in the world around me - leading by example, by inspiration, rather than by edict or condemnation. In any event, life is short and I had an unusually difficult and toxic upbringing; I choose not to spend all my time worrying about all the fearful that might happen one day, but then again might not, because, simply put, as was accurately, hilariously, and profoundly stated, "best not take life so seriously, because none of us ever get it out of it alive."

These days, I do try to politely advocate to those who seem to be trapped in states like fear, pride, and anger critical reasoning and thinking for oneself; I just find myself honestly much less concerned about what exactly they're thinking, so much as that they are, and perhaps part of that is in knowing that those who can think for themselves may come to edge of the abyss at times, but they'll be able to see it for what it is and not fall in any more.

In short, as Doc says in his own way, consciousness levels of Love and Peace are far more able to help not only ourselves evolve but others around us as well.
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Old 08-14-2014, 12:42   #270
Marcus Unrealious
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So good to hear back from you, my friend. I truly enjoy our exchanges!

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Originally Posted by AC37 View Post
In short, yes, at present, most fail to find lasting happiness and peace in this life. The good news is that according to Doc, humanity is on a relatively rapid upward trend in overall consciousness level. Since the dawn of recorded history, the overall calibration level of mankind has been well under 200, the critical line between the non-integrous and the integrous, which is directly correlated with rates of happiness/peace, but less than 30 years ago this line was finally crossed; IIRC it correlated, but was not caused by the fall of the Berlin Wall.
Interesting. So there is a direct correlation of consciousness being tied to periods of meaningful gain. Pretty darn cool.

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These conversations can be very difficult and painful, if not downright impossible for those who aren't prepared to have them, yes.
I imagine that many forms of self-realization do. It is difficult to accept that we ourselves are flawed, which is one of the key reasons I think people tend to focus on others. Far less painful to say you are flawed, then look inward toward myself.

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To a degree, yes, but the question seems to imply that pain is the only means of evolution. You might really enjoy/benefit from Martin Seligman's books on positive psychology; in short, there are a great number of positive motivating factors for the evolution of consciousness, not just negative ones. There is both the carrot and the stick, one might say.
Just did a quick scan of the reviews, they look like a great reads. Which do you recommend? The concept of learned helplessness is both daring and insightful.

I had not meant to indicate that only a pain stimulus can create growth. I just feel that many times an individual stuck in a primitive state can only relate directly to pain as a catalyst, especially if they have no self-realization and are not looking to improve themselves. We should discuss it more after I read it.

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There is definitely pain, and there is definitely physical consequence both positive and negative for evolving. As to why some remain stuck....I don't know exactly, but the general gist of it would be they remain dominated by the non-integrous, and on some level seem to believe that's all they're worth, and that thus they deserve to suffer more than they deserve to be happy, healthy, and healed.
Sadly, I feel all too many suffer in life through primal beliefs and self inflicted wounds. The mind can be immensely powerful, for good or bad. One only needs to look to the recent Robin Williams tragedy to see that. It is sad we will never really understand what the motives and root cause of his mental state were though it is something I can believe he carried all his life.

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My understanding is that our higher reasoning centers were basically grafted onto the lower "fight or flight" ones. As such. this does remain an issue even for the more evolved, though it is increasingly less dominant amongst them.
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I used to find it very concerning indeed, and I still do to a certain extent. However, I've surrendered it into God's/the Universe's hands; all my worries and fears won't help the situation at all, and will only make me miserable in the meantime. In more practical terms, as many great spiritual teachers including Gandhi have advocated, I work on being the change I wish to be in the world around me - leading by example, by inspiration, rather than by edict or condemnation. In any event, life is short and I had an unusually difficult and toxic upbringing; I choose not to spend all my time worrying about all the fearful that might happen one day, but then again might not, because, simply put, as was accurately, hilariously, and profoundly stated, "best not take life so seriously, because none of us ever get it out of it alive."
That is an interesting statement. I find it humorous when the technology giants say we will live eternally in machine code form, as it in fact will not be our essence, merely an approximation of our exterior image and actions. Yet if they believe that, as some trans humanists do, then why would machines not simply displace the human race as a facsimile of life?

The development of individuals through inspiration is indeed noble, though I am not sure it works with those intractably stuck in their pain. And I think people are fully misunderstood when they take about ascension because so many are willing to use the term for negative means.

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These days, I do try to politely advocate to those who seem to be trapped in states like fear, pride, and anger critical reasoning and thinking for oneself; I just find myself honestly much less concerned about what exactly they're thinking, so much as that they are, and perhaps part of that is in knowing that those who can think for themselves may come to edge of the abyss at times, but they'll be able to see it for what it is and not fall in any more.
Excellent views. I aspire for the same though often find myself frustrated with others actions to the point of speaking out in a less positive way. But I do want change, so there is hope for me.

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In short, as Doc says in his own way, consciousness levels of Love and Peace are far more able to help not only ourselves evolve but others around us as well.
Indeed, love and peace are the keys to a higher functioning society. But along with those who will grow, and raise themselves to a higher level, there are those who will not. I posit that eventually they will become ‘the problem’ when viewed in the new paradigm. Not that harm should befall them, but that they may be incapable of the necessary change to elevate.
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Old 08-14-2014, 15:43   #271
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Originally Posted by Marcus Unrealious View Post
So good to hear back from you, my friend. I truly enjoy our exchanges!
I enjoy our exchanges as well.



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Interesting. So there is a direct correlation of consciousness being tied to periods of meaningful gain. Pretty darn cool.
Sort of. Doc says there can be long periods where we appear to be going nowhere at all, followed by short bursts of the rapid evolution of consciousness. However, just because we don't appear to be going nowhere, doesn't mean we actually are. I've experienced a few of these myself; we change inside long before we change outside, at least IME. In any event, given I can't force others to change, I've focused on my own advancement, but I'm more than willing to share what I've learned thus far in my own journey with anyone who's interested.

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I imagine that many forms of self-realization do. It is difficult to accept that we ourselves are flawed, which is one of the key reasons I think people tend to focus on others. Far less painful to say you are flawed, then look inward toward myself.
Bingo. I experienced a ton of this from my parents growing up; everything but our own little tiny, select group was evil, deceived, dangerous, etc., when the only thing that really was, was the ignorant ways my parents and those they associated with were trapped in and didn't know a way out of.

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Just did a quick scan of the reviews, they look like a great reads. Which do you recommend? The concept of learned helplessness is both daring and insightful.
Currently, I'm working on Authentic Happiness; I intend to read Learned Optimism at some point in the near future. Learned helplessness is a very real thing not just for animals but for humans, too; something I struggled with extensively growing up; it's been a difficult road to learn to see my parents for who they really are, not the idealized people you believe or want them to be as a young child.

That said, as useful as I've found Martin Seligman's work to a point, I just find Doc's work/books much more helpful. It's a little hard to explain at present, but basically past a certain point in the evolution of consciousness, cognition and linear thinking and reasoning are transcended for non-linear operation; somewhat along the lines of how multi-tasking was not possible in the days of DOS home computing a couple decades back, and began to become possible with the advent more advanced GUIs like Windows and Linux. Perhaps another way to explain this would be how certain tasks become so familiar, going through your morning routine becomes so second nature that you almost find yourself in bed one minute, at work the next. Even though you did a bunch of tasks to go from one to the other, the tasks were done a subconscious, almost instinctual level that required minimal if any input from the conscious mind.

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I had not meant to indicate that only a pain stimulus can create growth. I just feel that many times an individual stuck in a primitive state can only relate directly to pain as a catalyst, especially if they have no self-realization and are not looking to improve themselves. We should discuss it more after I read it.
No worries; it just seems to be an issue in Western culture; people are far more comfortable talking about suffering, misery, and pain than love, joy, ecstasy, bliss and other high-functioning, life-affirming states. Perhaps some of this is a lack of familiarity with them, but I'm also convinced in large part it's representative of a deep and as-yet unseen and unresolved sense of dislike of oneself present in many people; Lord knows how much I still struggle with it, but it's been raised into conscious awareness in my mind to be processed out. In short, yes, pain can motivate and it is unfortunately the only means some can relate to, but it's important to learn to relate to far more healthy and enjoyable ways and reasons to improve.

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Sadly, I feel all too many suffer in life through primal beliefs and self inflicted wounds. The mind can be immensely powerful, for good or bad. One only needs to look to the recent Robin Williams tragedy to see that. It is sad we will never really understand what the motives and root cause of his mental state were though it is something I can believe he carried all his life.
Indeed; Doc says as much. Looking back, I see such unresolved pain in Robin Williams in retrospect. Great comedian, but perhaps it's equally true that we often joke about issues that are still unresolved in our own lives, that we often use humor as a shield to hide our true feelings.

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That is an interesting statement. I find it humorous when the technology giants say we will live eternally in machine code form, as it in fact will not be our essence, merely an approximation of our exterior image and actions. Yet if they believe that, as some trans humanists do, then why would machines not simply displace the human race as a facsimile of life?

The development of individuals through inspiration is indeed noble, though I am not sure it works with those intractably stuck in their pain. And I think people are fully misunderstood when they take about ascension because so many are willing to use the term for negative means.
I find transhumanism and related subjects fascinating and informative in their own way, but past a certain point you realize that computers and machines only do what they are told. Meaning, you can choose to use your computer to watch violent brutality like people having their heads slowly sawn off, or you can use it to educate yourself as to how to better help the suffering, the needy, to live a better life for yourself. Thus, in games like Deus Ex with strong elements of Transhumanism, we see the same basic elements of current human existence being played out in virtually identical ways, just in a future with greater technology. To the point: who cares if we can integrate weapons and defenses directly into our body, when we're still fighting unnecessarily over lines on maps and resources?

Real meaning is found in recognizing the paradigms of the non-integrous like desire, anger, and pride as insufficient to truly satisfy us, and another that is far more capable of doing so. No matter how nice a car I drive, I still recognize a world that defines itself far more on such vanities than on real virtues like courage, love, and kindness just isn't operating on a high enough wavelength to recognize the true strengths and enduring qualities that unite heroes across vast distances and great spans of time who, at least by linear human conception, have never met. Thus, I increasingly do not recognize most others' abilities to accurately assess my own value, let alone any other real and lasting value for that matter. That is not to say that nobody gets it; rather, that I recognize those who do are few and far in between.

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Excellent views. I aspire for the same though often find myself frustrated with others actions to the point of speaking out in a less positive way. But I do want change, so there is hope for me.
Believe me, I definitely relate. I used to get really angry and frustrated at trying to share certain advanced concepts with people, and they just couldn't seem to get it. One day, I came to realize it wasn't that they were so stupid, it was just that I was so far ahead of the curve. Humans may share biology with one another, but even within the species, there is a vast divide between appearance and essence; those who are integrous and those who are not fundamentally think, act, and operate on different wavelengths. Likewise, you can't teach a squirrel trigonometry; he's just going to see somebody taking his acorns. Best you're realistically going to manage is showing the squirrel you're no one to be afraid of, and if he'll do a few simple tricks for you, you'll reward him with some extra nuts. This doesn't mean control; quite the opposite. Rather, it means accepting the squirrel for what he is and isn't, just as we have to learn to love and accept our own baser human nature, rather than grudgingly resent it, at least if we want to truly advance in consciousness.

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Indeed, love and peace are the keys to a higher functioning society. But along with those who will grow, and raise themselves to a higher level, there are those who will not. I posit that eventually they will become ‘the problem’ when viewed in the new paradigm. Not that harm should befall them, but that they may be incapable of the necessary change to elevate.
Ultimately, it is recognized, as Doc said, that non-integrous programs running in people's minds are the problem, rather than the people themselves. In keeping with this, bankers learn to recognize fake $100 bills not by being shown tons of them, but by learning the real $100 bills so well that there's absolutely no chance of mistaking the real thing for its imitation. Thus we realize hatred of evil is not equivalent to Love of good. Thus, we must demonstrate Love unflinchingly and unceasingly if we are to advance as a species. Jesus said we cannot overcome evil with more evil; Doc would and did say that the non-integrous is simply not strong enough to overcome itself.

In other words, all that is necessary to cast out the darkness is spending greater energy lighting candles than cursing the darkness. Most men are blind; they do not recognize the light, because they have never seen it. They are not evil, so much as they simply are less evolved, do not know, are ignorant of what we take for granted.
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Old 08-14-2014, 17:05   #272
Marcus Unrealious
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Doc says there can be long periods where we appear to be going nowhere at all, followed by short bursts of the rapid evolution of consciousness. However, just because we don't appear to be going nowhere, doesn't mean we actually are. I've experienced a few of these myself; we change inside long before we change outside, at least IME. In any event, given I can't force others to change, I've focused on my own advancement, but I'm more than willing to share what I've learned thus far in my own journey with anyone who's interested.
Good point. I think that for people to evolve, they to need to invite themselves into the dialog, they cannot simply be pushed into it, as they will resist and not have the introspect needed for change. I could be wrong of course, and I am sure that some have evolved from primal construct on their own. But still, there are some here, I believe, that have looked at the few references discussed in an attempt to understand the conversation. That inquisitive notion allows their mind to be open to examine for themselves, eventually leading to change.

Others, perhaps the many do not and simply pass the thread by as nonsensical, or worse, which means they are simply not ready for growth. Do you agree?


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Everything but our own little tiny, select group was evil, deceived, dangerous, etc., when the only thing that really was, was the ignorant ways my parents and those they associated with were trapped in and didn't know a way out of.
That’s precisely what I feel many on this site are like. So much fighting between those who have the common claim of conservatism, yet are so divided on the factions they are unable to be rational, thus they argue and stress conflict. And yes, so long as civilization is living in the ingrained but wrong levels of consciousness, ongoing conflict is almost assured as they try to make themselves feel better at the expense of others due to the primitive concepts they cling to.

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Currently, I'm working on Authentic Happiness; I intend to read Learned Optimism at some point in the near future. Learned helplessness is a very real thing not just for animals but for humans, too; something I struggled with extensively growing up; it's been a difficult road to learn to see my parents for who they really are, not the idealized people you believe or want them to be as a young child.
OK, I will start on Authentic as a means to catch up. Interestingly, I think we all idolize the people that gave us life, even though for the most part they are unable to actually give us happiness and contentment. I do not fault them, for they did their best with what they knew. It is unfortunate that most lived in such despair.

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That said, as useful as I've found Martin Seligman's work to a point, I just find Doc's work/books much more helpful. It's a little hard to explain at present, but basically past a certain point in the evolution of consciousness, cognition and linear thinking and reasoning are transcended for non-linear operation; somewhat along the lines of how multi-tasking was not possible in the days of DOS home computing a couple decades back, and began to become possible with the advent more advanced GUIs like Windows and Linux. Perhaps another way to explain this would be how certain tasks become so familiar, going through your morning routine becomes so second nature that you almost find yourself in bed one minute, at work the next. Even though you did a bunch of tasks to go from one to the other, the tasks were done a subconscious, almost instinctual level that required minimal if any input from the conscious mind.
I am sure that you are explaining this well, but I am having a difficult time in understanding the concept. Are you stating that the higher ones consciousness, the less able one is to work in the concrete and perhaps has to work more in the singular abstract we are focused on? Certainly, in the time since birth we have been conditioned to think in a preset basis. The adoption of ‘new think’ (perhaps a bad choice of words) must be a learned process and not natural to us or we would have attained it eons ago.

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No worries; it just seems to be an issue in Western culture; people are far more comfortable talking about suffering, misery, and pain than love, joy, ecstasy, bliss and other high-functioning, life-affirming states. Perhaps some of this is a lack of familiarity with them, but I'm also convinced in large part it's representative of a deep and as-yet unseen and unresolved sense of dislike of oneself present in many people; Lord knows how much I still struggle with it, but it's been raised into conscious awareness in my mind to be processed out. In short, yes, pain can motivate and it is unfortunately the only means some can relate to, but it's important to learn to relate to far more healthy and enjoyable ways and reasons to improve.
When society reaffirms that real men don’t cry, it is easy to see why so many simply shy away from it. How often do we hear man up, cowboy up and other sentiments intended to take us back to a point of other peoples acceptance. Seldom do you hear that those are your feeling and you are entitled to them. It is usually a direct and blunt assault. I think some of this comes because many do not even realize that there is a higher layer of consciousness, thus they never search for them. They medicate, do yoga for escape (though it can also be a positive tool), many activities as a means to mask the inner pains they carry. And when they act out it is often in conflict for what they perceive to be their value basis, as in “I am right, you are wrong, therefor I am validated”.

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Indeed; Doc says as much. Looking back, I see such unresolved pain in Robin Williams in retrospect. Great comedian, but perhaps it's equally true that we often joke about issues that are still unresolved in our own lives, that we often use humor as a shield to hide our true feelings.
As for Robin Williams, I can only begin to image the illusionary pain he was in that brought him to that point. I am sure it felt like true pain, and perhaps had he sought growth therapy and not drug therapy, he could have avoided it.



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I find transhumanism and related subjects fascinating and informative in their own way, but past a certain point you realize that computers and machines only do what they are told. Meaning, you can choose to use your computer to watch violent brutality like people having their heads slowly sawn off, or you can use it to educate yourself as to how to better help the suffering, the needy, to live a better life for yourself. Thus, in games like Deus Ex with strong elements of Transhumanism, we see the same basic elements of current human existence being played out in virtually identical ways, just in a future with greater technology. To the point: who cares if we can integrate weapons and defenses directly into our body, when we're still fighting unnecessarily over lines on maps and resources?
Very valid point. But tell me, with kids so enthralled with electronics, militaries searching for greater power and government in such dispute, is there a doubt that transhumanism will in fact occur at some level, and most likely within our lifetime?

Additionally, look at the kids that are so enamored with movies and shows with dark plotlines. It is as if the media and Hollywood want to preclude evolution by feeding them more basic emotion fodder as opposed to anything that could elevate them. What’s more, look at the experience with many on here who are so concerned with what is theirs that the openly state they would let elders die rather than give of ‘what is theirs’ to social security. And the most vocal of them are probably the least likely to actually help anyone other than their own in the event it did end abruptly. Their only motivation seems to be Maslow’s hierarchy of need blended with selfishness.

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Originally Posted by AC37 View Post
Real meaning is found in recognizing the paradigms of the non-integrous like desire, anger, and pride as insufficient to truly satisfy us, and another that is far more capable of doing so. No matter how nice a car I drive, I still recognize a world that defines itself far more on such vanities than on real virtues like courage, love, and kindness just isn't operating on a high enough wavelength to recognize the true strengths and enduring qualities that unite heroes across vast distances and great spans of time who, at least by linear human conception, have never met. Thus, I increasingly do not recognize most others' abilities to accurately assess my own value, let alone any other real and lasting value for that matter. That is not to say that nobody gets it; rather, that I recognize those who do are few and far in between.
I would need to agree with that. Sadly, I would like to try and shake people to get them to awake which would merely make me operate at their level. I do hope that some reading this will at least look into self realization, and understand that without love and contentment, anxiety will rule their thoughts.

Yet we were clearly told millennia ago: And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

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Believe me, I definitely relate. I used to get really angry and frustrated at trying to share certain advanced concepts with people, and they just couldn't seem to get it. One day, I came to realize it wasn't that they were so stupid, it was just that I was so far ahead of the curve. Humans may share biology with one another, but even within the species, there is a vast divide between appearance and essence; those who are integrous and those who are not fundamentally think, act, and operate on different wavelengths. Likewise, you can't teach a squirrel trigonometry; he's just going to see somebody taking his acorns. Best you're realistically going to manage is showing the squirrel you're no one to be afraid of, and if he'll do a few simple tricks for you, you'll reward him with some extra nuts. This doesn't mean control; quite the opposite. Rather, it means accepting the squirrel for what he is and isn't, just as we have to learn to love and accept our own baser human nature, rather than grudgingly resent it, at least if we want to truly advance in consciousness.
Well, I did try to teach a squirrel trig….
Unless and until man can accept man, there will be conflict. And until man can accept himself, I do not see how conflict will cease. For that self loathing drives them to covet, conquer and rule over others. I would believe a fair statement to be that the despot dictators are in fact some of the unhappiest people in the world, for all their riches and rule, they cannot fill themselves.


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Ultimately, it is recognized, as Doc said, that non-integrous programs running in people's minds are the problem, rather than the people themselves. In keeping with this, bankers learn to recognize fake $100 bills not by being shown tons of them, but by learning the real $100 bills so well that there's absolutely no chance of mistaking the real thing for its imitation. Thus we realize hatred of evil is not equivalent to Love of good. Thus, we must demonstrate Love unflinchingly and unceasingly if we are to advance as a species. Jesus said we cannot overcome evil with more evil; Doc would and did say that the non-integrous is simply not strong enough to overcome itself.
Well said, Sir. Well said.

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In other words, all that is necessary to cast out the darkness is spending greater energy lighting candles than cursing the darkness. Most men are blind; they do not recognize the light, because they have never seen it. They are not evil, so much as they simply are less evolved, do not know, are ignorant of what we take for granted.
I think that the truths of higher consciousness are in fact what the bible describes as becoming more godlike in nature. And I do not think that the truths have ever changed, it is that man has been unable to interpret them. Perhaps the statement “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?” could actually be restated as grow yourself, not your neighbor.
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Old 08-27-2014, 14:39   #273
AC37
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Hey buddy! Sorry for the delay in responding; the internet was down at the apartment since we last spoke and I've been in the process of moving since then; things are finally starting to be a little less busy now.

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Originally Posted by Marcus Unrealious View Post
Good point. I think that for people to evolve, they to need to invite themselves into the dialog, they cannot simply be pushed into it, as they will resist and not have the introspect needed for change. I could be wrong of course, and I am sure that some have evolved from primal construct on their own. But still, there are some here, I believe, that have looked at the few references discussed in an attempt to understand the conversation. That inquisitive notion allows their mind to be open to examine for themselves, eventually leading to change.

Others, perhaps the many do not and simply pass the thread by as nonsensical, or worse, which means they are simply not ready for growth. Do you agree?
Ultimately, yes. People can't be forced by external forces to change; they have to see the benefits of growth for themselves. And yes, we can only really help those who are ready to help themselves; at a certain point, you don't abandon certain people, but you do recognize and respect that they don't (yet) want to be helped, and that your efforts are best spent elsewhere.

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That’s precisely what I feel many on this site are like. So much fighting between those who have the common claim of conservatism, yet are so divided on the factions they are unable to be rational, thus they argue and stress conflict. And yes, so long as civilization is living in the ingrained but wrong levels of consciousness, ongoing conflict is almost assured as they try to make themselves feel better at the expense of others due to the primitive concepts they cling to.
If you get a chance, you might find study of A Course in Miracles most enlightening. Basically and in keeping with what Doc relates, the overwhelming majority of folks on the planet value conflict, and thus that is exactly what they find and continue to encounter - until and unless they reach the day they come to value more life-affirming things like Love and Peace far more.

Quote:
OK, I will start on Authentic as a means to catch up. Interestingly, I think we all idolize the people that gave us life, even though for the most part they are unable to actually give us happiness and contentment. I do not fault them, for they did their best with what they knew. It is unfortunate that most lived in such despair.
Very much so; it is for whatever reason something that psychologically is beneficial, at least for children. I agree, there's really no point in hating our parents no matter how non-integrous we recognize a great many of their behaviors as being; they did the best they could. Likewise, so are we, and sometimes we find when we are adults that our parents are simply not healthy, sane, or stable people we want to continue to have in our lives.

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I am sure that you are explaining this well, but I am having a difficult time in understanding the concept. Are you stating that the higher ones consciousness, the less able one is to work in the concrete and perhaps has to work more in the singular abstract we are focused on? Certainly, in the time since birth we have been conditioned to think in a preset basis. The adoption of ‘new think’ (perhaps a bad choice of words) must be a learned process and not natural to us or we would have attained it eons ago.
To a degree, yes. I guess another way to put this would be it becomes increasingly that you just really have no interest in participating in the ongoing drams of a world that hinge so near-exclusively on unnecessary suffering and conflict. I'm sorry the life expectancy in your country is only 35 and AIDS, and malnutrition are rampant and quality of life is abysmal, but unprotected sex in a place where disease is so out of control, birth control is taught to be against God's wishes, large families are fathered with insufficient regard as to how to provide for them and there's perpetual tribal warfare instead of any unified effort to work together to resolve any let alone all the above issues, these things are simply bound to happen. This isn't to say that all the people who still do are "bad"; rather, it's just akin to a fifth grader not wanting to repeat first grade; that level of comprehension just doesn't hold any appeal for them any more. The first graders aren't yet ready to learn more, and the fifth graders have their own work to concentrate on; probably one of the only things the fifth graders can really do is just be kind and compassionate to the first graders upon encountering them.

This may offend some, but let's face it: simply reaching a certain biological age doesn't automatically correlate with wisdom, discrimination, intelligence, perseverance, or any of a thousand other life- and health-affirming virtues.

Quote:
When society reaffirms that real men don’t cry, it is easy to see why so many simply shy away from it. How often do we hear man up, cowboy up and other sentiments intended to take us back to a point of other peoples acceptance. Seldom do you hear that those are your feeling and you are entitled to them. It is usually a direct and blunt assault. I think some of this comes because many do not even realize that there is a higher layer of consciousness, thus they never search for them. They medicate, do yoga for escape (though it can also be a positive tool), many activities as a means to mask the inner pains they carry. And when they act out it is often in conflict for what they perceive to be their value basis, as in “I am right, you are wrong, therefor I am validated”.
Very much so. Repressing feelings is not the same as transcending them; repressing them doesn't deal with an issue, it only delays dealing with it. And yes, a great number of people are busy trying to save the world in one way or another, as a result of the inner pain of their own they aren't dealing with. Indeed, most are ego-driven, and the little satisfaction they know comes from demonstrating how much more they know than everyone else around them, not recognizing they're still trapped in win/lose paradigms that are all ultimately lose/lose in the long run.

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As for Robin Williams, I can only begin to image the illusionary pain he was in that brought him to that point. I am sure it felt like true pain, and perhaps had he sought growth therapy and not drug therapy, he could have avoided it.
I'm very careful about defining any pain or suffering as "illusionary," because the body cannot experience itself and all pain is ultimately experienced in the mind; all that pain and suffering is very much real to the person experiencing it. As it might be said that all pain is illusionary at the highest spiritual altitudes, perhaps it's far more accurately, helpfully, and compassionately said all pain and suffering is a result of incomplete spiritual evolution, and thus the means to transcending it is continued progress.

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Very valid point. But tell me, with kids so enthralled with electronics, militaries searching for greater power and government in such dispute, is there a doubt that transhumanism will in fact occur at some level, and most likely within our lifetime?
Depends on our frame of reference and our definition of transhumanism. One could make a very good argument transhumanism really begins with tool use itself, which could simultaneously be considered a defining attribute of humanity itself. Does it begin with implanting artificial electric or electronic devices in the human body? Already has been done. Does it begin with implants or limb replacements that allow an "enhanced" human to exceed normal human limitations? This, too, has already been achieved. Does the definition revolve around spiritual progress? By this definition, too, a decent number of people could already claim. Or perhaps does the definition of transhumanism revolve a certain number, a certain percentage of human beings one or more of the above applies to? If so, what is that number, and what degree of enhancement counts?

Ultimately, it is realized that all beginning and stopping points and definitions are arbitrary and artificial as Doc once said, because the end of one journey marks the beginning of another, and because things are rarely so neatly and cleanly arranged as to preclude any ambiguity in definition.

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Additionally, look at the kids that are so enamored with movies and shows with dark plotlines. It is as if the media and Hollywood want to preclude evolution by feeding them more basic emotion fodder as opposed to anything that could elevate them. What’s more, look at the experience with many on here who are so concerned with what is theirs that the openly state they would let elders die rather than give of ‘what is theirs’ to social security. And the most vocal of them are probably the least likely to actually help anyone other than their own in the event it did end abruptly. Their only motivation seems to be Maslow’s hierarchy of need blended with selfishness.
To me, it really seems to be Freud's Eros and Thanatos, or what the Romans might have called "bread and circuses." Ultimately, such doesn't represent a move towards transhumanism, so much as it represents a more direct focus on the very things that have long, if not always driven humanity.

Put in a more basic way, look at what most people are watching with their electronic devices - in large part, they tend to most broadly fall into one of these two categories - Eros or Thanatos. Maybe we're watching those things on electronic screens versus in mass colosseums, but are they not the same basic essence of what the Romans watched two thousand years ago?

As for Maslow's hierarchy of needs, it seems like I do recall seeing it mentioned in Authentic Happiness; perhaps one more reason you'll enjoy it.

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I would need to agree with that. Sadly, I would like to try and shake people to get them to awake which would merely make me operate at their level. I do hope that some reading this will at least look into self realization, and understand that without love and contentment, anxiety will rule their thoughts.

Yet we were clearly told millennia ago: And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
Challenge is, that the people who'd really stand to benefit from reading it probably wouldn't comprehend it. The good news is, it does help those like us better understand our own positions, and in time that might translate to allowing us to understand them well enough to help us explain them in ways readily understandable to those really in need.



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Well, I did try to teach a squirrel trig….
Unless and until man can accept man, there will be conflict. And until man can accept himself, I do not see how conflict will cease. For that self loathing drives them to covet, conquer and rule over others. I would believe a fair statement to be that the despot dictators are in fact some of the unhappiest people in the world, for all their riches and rule, they cannot fill themselves.
Yes, that's basically what Doc says in so many words - our conflicts with others represent our own unresolved conflicts with ourselves.

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Well said, Sir. Well said.
Thank you.

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I think that the truths of higher consciousness are in fact what the bible describes as becoming more godlike in nature. And I do not think that the truths have ever changed, it is that man has been unable to interpret them. Perhaps the statement “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?” could actually be restated as grow yourself, not your neighbor.
Absolutely and I agree completely; there are a great number of spiritual truths that aren't well understood and perhaps were even poorly understood back then, but this is one of the major ones I've been working on myself - to work on resolving my own issues, not be busier trying to fix everyone else's while ignoring my own.

Good talking to you as always.
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Old 08-28-2014, 14:10   #274
Marcus Unrealious
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Hey buddy! Sorry for the delay in responding; the internet was down at the apartment since we last spoke and I've been in the process of moving since then; things are finally starting to be a little less busy now.
I am happy to hear all is well and that the internet has been fixed. Now, if we could just find the GT’er that broke it to begin with……

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Ultimately, yes. People can't be forced by external forces to change; they have to see the benefits of growth for themselves. And yes, we can only really help those who are ready to help themselves; at a certain point, you don't abandon certain people, but you do recognize and respect that they don't (yet) want to be helped, and that your efforts are best spent elsewhere.
It is odd how human nature seems to evolve, much like an alcoholic that finally becomes tired of being one. Yet more unfortunate are those who never do and commit themselves to a miserable death. Similar in that the lower thinking man may not see the necessity for change when in fact change would bring immense satisfaction and happiness to them. Instead they play about in a realm of dissatisfaction and unhappiness, only finding a moments satisfaction in the conquering of some perceived foe. In fact, I would dare say that many alcoholics are locked into lower levels of thinking, causing the great dissatisfaction in life that drive them to drink as a form of medicating the pain they have.

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If you get a chance, you might find study of A Course in Miracles most enlightening. Basically and in keeping with what Doc relates, the overwhelming majority of folks on the planet value conflict, and thus that is exactly what they find and continue to encounter - until and unless they reach the day they come to value more life-affirming things like Love and Peace far more.
Great reference piece, thanks. I will read it to get caught up. I do think that man tends to remain in a semi primitive state of thought without ever even realizing that they are. The automatic shutoff of talks about assentation, love, peace or other forms of enlightenment don’t seem to naturally connect. Unless, of course, the individual looks into themselves instead of others. Nothing real can be threatened.
Nothing unreal exists.
Herein lies the peace of God.

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Very much so; it is for whatever reason something that psychologically is beneficial, at least for children. I agree, there's really no point in hating our parents no matter how non-integrous we recognize a great many of their behaviors as being; they did the best they could. Likewise, so are we, and sometimes we find when we are adults that our parents are simply not healthy, sane, or stable people we want to continue to have in our lives.
I can see the point, but I wonder, if the very same people would be welcomed back after evolving in their thinking. Are the historical facts and acts the reason for them to then be away, or is it the absence of an evolutionary set of thinking. After all, if the philosophical basis for their conduct evolved, is it not worth attempting reunification to re-assess circumstance? Or can the pain simply be so deep that reconciliation is not possible?

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To a degree, yes. I guess another way to put this would be it becomes increasingly that you just really have no interest in participating in the ongoing drams of a world that hinge so near-exclusively on unnecessary suffering and conflict. I'm sorry the life expectancy in your country is only 35 and AIDS, and malnutrition are rampant and quality of life is abysmal, but unprotected sex in a place where disease is so out of control, birth control is taught to be against God's wishes, large families are fathered with insufficient regard as to how to provide for them and there's perpetual tribal warfare instead of any unified effort to work together to resolve any let alone all the above issues, these things are simply bound to happen. This isn't to say that all the people who still do are "bad"; rather, it's just akin to a fifth grader not wanting to repeat first grade; that level of comprehension just doesn't hold any appeal for them anymore. The first graders aren't yet ready to learn more, and the fifth graders have their own work to concentrate on; probably one of the only things the fifth graders can really do is just be kind and compassionate to the first graders upon encountering them.

This may offend some, but let's face it: simply reaching a certain biological age doesn't automatically correlate with wisdom, discrimination, intelligence, perseverance, or any of a thousand other life- and health-affirming virtues.
So true that age does not equate to wisdom, intelligence or discrimination or other virtues. But let me ask this; do you feel that the older one gets the less likely they are to seek change? Perhaps becoming so ingrained they do not even look at an alternative view that could be beneficial? Even in the small constellation of GlockTalk, I see so many who argue a point endlessly, seemingly skipping past the truth in a point to further argue their bias or opinion. Is the flaw in thinking so first nature that they become incapable of seeing truths when presented?

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Originally Posted by AC37 View Post
Very much so. Repressing feelings is not the same as transcending them; repressing them doesn't deal with an issue, it only delays dealing with it. And yes, a great number of people are busy trying to save the world in one way or another, as a result of the inner pain of their own they aren't dealing with. Indeed, most are ego-driven, and the little satisfaction they know comes from demonstrating how much more they know than everyone else around them, not recognizing they're still trapped in win/lose paradigms that are all ultimately lose/lose in the long run.
That seems rather tragic. A tiny morsel of satisfaction at the expense of someone else, as opposed to finding a more blissful existence through open minds. We used to refer to the syndrome as the mile high and mile wide ego clubs. The mile high were in fact subject matter experts, with extensive training and knowledge on a particular issue. Their insights were typically accepted as factual. The mile wide guys always had to parlay a limited set of knowledge into being the experts of the universe on all matters. They really didn’t know the subject at hand well, but they would argue endlessly to convince the many they do. Perhaps it was an inferiority complex that drove them to do so. Yet I never perceived them as inferior in any way other than an ability to actually learn, adapt and grow (their evolution, as such). Even then, I didn’t fault them for it. But I do wish I could shake them and make them understand. If they read this, perhaps they will open their minds a little and understand that no one is inferior to another, except perhaps for the level of consciousness attained.

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I'm very careful about defining any pain or suffering as "illusionary," because the body cannot experience itself and all pain is ultimately experienced in the mind; all that pain and suffering is very much real to the person experiencing it. As it might be said that all pain is illusionary at the highest spiritual altitudes, perhaps it's far more accurately, helpfully, and compassionately said all pain and suffering is a result of incomplete spiritual evolution, and thus the means to transcending it is continued progress.
Oh, my. I did not intend to say that the perception of pain is not real to anyone who experiences it. What I had intended to convey is that a different level of thinking may well have alleviated the pain, thus it was real in one state of being, but not necessarily real in another. It’s one reason I believe people on mood elevators should also be in talk therapy, as a means to elevate the consciousness and create a means for the inner thinking to evolve. The drugs can mask a set of emotions or feelings, but not truly address the root. It is also one reason I think that alcohol and pot are so popular, as it is a means to mask the inner self, creating a temporary sense of calm in what is an unsatisfied life.

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Depends on our frame of reference and our definition of transhumanism. One could make a very good argument transhumanism really begins with tool use itself, which could simultaneously be considered a defining attribute of humanity itself. Does it begin with implanting artificial electric or electronic devices in the human body? Already has been done. Does it begin with implants or limb replacements that allow an "enhanced" human to exceed normal human limitations? This, too, has already been achieved. Does the definition revolve around spiritual progress? By this definition, too, a decent number of people could already claim. Or perhaps does the definition of transhumanism revolve a certain number, a certain percentage of human beings one or more of the above applies to? If so, what is that number, and what degree of enhancement counts?

Ultimately, it is realized that all beginning and stopping points and definitions are arbitrary and artificial as Doc once said, because the end of one journey marks the beginning of another, and because things are rarely so neatly and cleanly arranged as to preclude any ambiguity in definition.
OK, I give. I guess my sentiments on transhumanism was more murky and with darker undertones. You know, the military industrial complex building remorseless soldiers or the dark overlord uploading his psyche to a machine to rule forever type of thing. As with almost anything, an invention is merely an invention. Its application is what defines it as good or evil.

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To me, it really seems to be Freud's Eros and Thanatos, or what the Romans might have called "bread and circuses." Ultimately, such doesn't represent a move towards transhumanism, so much as it represents a more direct focus on the very things that have long, if not always driven humanity.

Put in a more basic way, look at what most people are watching with their electronic devices - in large part, they tend to most broadly fall into one of these two categories - Eros or Thanatos. Maybe we're watching those things on electronic screens versus in mass colosseums, but are they not the same basic essence of what the Romans watched two thousand years ago?

As for Maslow's hierarchy of needs, it seems like I do recall seeing it mentioned in Authentic Happiness; perhaps one more reason you'll enjoy it.
I had not ever thought about it as simply being an electronic coliseum! But I still worry for mankind’s ability to produce the macabre and dark content which seems to cause a lower level of thought than an elevation of it. Could you imagine society if Hollywood decided to produce intellectual stimulants for the elevation of consciousness. Certainly there is an occasional foray into it, but what power they could wield in assisting mankind to change the way most think. Instead, it seems like they turn out gruel for the masses based on man dominating man, or overcoming another, feeding man’s temporary relief from the very circumstances they portray.

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Challenge is, that the people who'd really stand to benefit from reading it probably wouldn't comprehend it. The good news is, it does help those like us better understand our own positions, and in time that might translate to allowing us to understand them well enough to help us explain them in ways readily understandable to those really in need.
OK, I certainly can accept that. So a question, please. With an elevation in ones thinking, at what point is there also the development of an altruistic goal to enlighten others? Or is the simple elevation of oneself sufficient for true happiness?

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Absolutely and I agree completely; there are a great number of spiritual truths that aren't well understood and perhaps were even poorly understood back then, but this is one of the major ones I've been working on myself - to work on resolving my own issues, not be busier trying to fix everyone else's while ignoring my own.

Good talking to you as always.
If everyone could take the time and effort to reflect on their being, the world could change drastically and almost overnight. But like all things it starts with self. You seem to be well versed with it all, and I am trying to grow though imperfect. But perhaps someone reading this has been touched just enough to explore what is being said, or why. And maybe that leads to their self-improvement and growth.
Interestingly, no one has entered to argue, counter, belittle or demean the dialog. Though I see view counts go up with each post. So people see it. I hope it helps at least one, who in turn…. But if not, it helps me. So thank you!
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Old 08-28-2014, 14:30   #275
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THE END IS NEAR!!!!!
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Old 08-28-2014, 15:00   #276
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If everyone could take the time and effort to reflect on their being, the world could change drastically and almost overnight. But like all things it starts with self.
Therein lies the problem. People do reflect on their being and think only of self. All hail the god of self-esteem.
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Old 08-28-2014, 15:24   #277
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THE END IS NEAR!!!!!
While I believe we are far from the end, its good to see you so happy!
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Old 08-28-2014, 15:30   #278
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Therein lies the problem. People do reflect on their being and think only of self. All hail the god of self-esteem.
Perhaps you are correct on that. I think it is driven by a mix of all the 'deadly' sins.

Lust
Gluttony
Greed
Sloth
Wrath
Envy
Pride
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Old 08-28-2014, 16:43   #279
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Thanks my friend!
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Old 08-28-2014, 17:10   #280
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Yup.


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