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Old 08-10-2014, 19:19   #201
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Originally Posted by Marcus Unrealious View Post
An interesting set of questions, Gamer! But that is not an answer to my question. So let me state it again, please. Start there as I asked a question first, and we can go forward.


Do, as a libertarian, you believe that all SS should be ended immediately tomorrow with no regard for the consequences to the elderly.
I read a book once about a dystopian future where unwanted adolescents were used for "spare parts", if you will. The society benefited from large availability of organs and other body parts from unwanted people.

My money is a physical representation of part of my life, that is, I have a finite lifespan and a finite amount of time. Taking some of that is like taking a part of me away from me.

Simple question: if the former situation were happening now, when would you end it? Isn't it unfair for people who were promised a new body part not to get it?

Wrong is wrong (well, in my opinion, anyway).
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Old 08-10-2014, 20:21   #202
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I agree the USA is not and was not intended to be a dumbocracy, where the mob rules. Sadly, there are nitwits a plenty who want it to be a democracy. Or at least that's what they profess to desire.

Note however that when a popular vote (democracy) fails to deliver the desired outcome, those very same folks turn to the courts. Usually this has a GLBT agenda attached.
Yes, how DARE "those people" demand to be treated like human beings! The sheer audacity!
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Old 08-10-2014, 20:42   #203
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I read a book once about a dystopian future where unwanted adolescents were used for "spare parts", if you will. The society benefited from large availability of organs and other body parts from unwanted people.

My money is a physical representation of part of my life, that is, I have a finite lifespan and a finite amount of time. Taking some of that is like taking a part of me away from me.

Simple question: if the former situation were happening now, when would you end it? Isn't it unfair for people who were promised a new body part not to get it?

Wrong is wrong (well, in my opinion, anyway).
I understand your position, but what I am seeking are answers to a very simple question:

Do you believe that all SS should be ended immediately tomorrow with no regard for the consequences to the elderly.
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Old 08-10-2014, 20:46   #204
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Originally Posted by Marcus Unrealious View Post
I understand your position, but what I am seeking are answers to a very simple question:

Do you believe that the government should stop taking your body parts immediately tomorrow with no regard for the consequences to the elderly.
I rephrased that question in the context of his question (bold)
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Old 08-10-2014, 21:31   #205
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Matthew 19:21 -
Jesus said to him, "If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."
Yes but thats private sector giving, one to another or helping the poor directly as a personal voluntary act. Confiscating it by government edict to give to someone else without your direction is very different.
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Old 08-10-2014, 21:39   #206
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Yes, how DARE "those people" demand to be treated like human beings! The sheer audacity!
You are obviously one of those folks always banging on about tolerance, yet get your knickers knotted when an opinion you don't like is voiced.

Not surprisingly you missed, or chose to ignore, the point ; the GLBT crowd are fans of democracy until it does not provide what they desire. Then they turn to the courts.
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Old 08-10-2014, 22:45   #207
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You are obviously one of those folks always banging on about tolerance, yet get your knickers knotted when an opinion you don't like is voiced.

Not surprisingly you missed, or chose to ignore, the point ; the GLBT crowd are fans of democracy until it does not provide what they desire. Then they turn to the courts.
What makes you think they're fans of democracy? And now you have a problem with the court system that was set up in the Constitution?

Is there ANYTHING in this country you actually like?
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Old 08-10-2014, 23:35   #208
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Excellent post.

I fully concur with moving towards things which take us to a better place. The only way to that point is letting go of prejudicial thoughts, actions or biases through an open mind, hearing the counter view and thoughtfully examining it. I attempt to do so on my encounters with people, and have learned a great number of things from people I initially thought I opposed. Growth comes in many forms, and from many interesting sources.
I agree. I don't see eye-to-eye with one of my best friends, but I think we always, or almost always have a positive resolution and productive discussions because we're more concerned with figuring out and exploring our own views than convincing each other of that which we're still fully exploring ourselves.

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But when confronted with an opponent who specifically reinforces the filters previously established, how do you see progress being made? When the biases are simply reinforced, at what point does the mind shut down and resign to disagreement?

The problem is that open minded people have the capacity to reach a mutually beneficial conclusion. It seems to come from one side or the other actually presenting an information set that forces one to conclude the counter view (or a subset) has merit.

But when minds are locked, biases fully engaged and the unwillingness if not inability to hear for comprehension sets in, where do you see the process going? Do you believe the process with that individual should be infinite?
If I'm reading this correctly, you're wondering when exactly you reach the point that you just decide to quit discussing the issue with a given person or person because you're convinced they're not open to new information and/or potentially changing their views...?

I guess the short answer would be I increasingly find I post in discussions and have conversations to better understand the issues and acquire new information - not to try to convince anyone else, but rather to test my own understanding and to try to do my part in dispelling ignorance, bias, preconception, prejudice. I certainly do my best to explain myself, but based on some of the responses and lack thereof, it's often quite clear I'm talking about concepts and paradigms far beyond what the average poster has a frame of reference to understand. Thus, in a certain sense I might be said to be having a conversation with Self out loud where others might benefit, where if I did so in private no one but me would be directly.

IOW, I feel fulfilled simply in broadening my own understanding. We are all responsible for effort, not result, and on a fundamental level, no one can really force anyone else to change their minds. In fact, the more I learn, the more I grow convinced that a person actually changing their mind during a discussion/argument is the extreme exception to the rule, rather than the rule itself, and I try to focus on the "nexuses" - that is, the people like yourself and myself that are genuinely eager to expand their knowledge and aren't tied down to one ignorant bias or another, but are on a neverending quest for a greater understanding of Truth.

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Old 08-11-2014, 04:38   #209
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What makes you think they're fans of democracy? And now you have a problem with the court system that was set up in the Constitution?

Is there ANYTHING in this country you actually like?
Uh, the court system we have is NOT the court system set up in the Constitution.
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Old 08-11-2014, 05:05   #210
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Originally Posted by Marcus Unrealious View Post
An interesting set of questions, Gamer! But that is not an answer to my question. So let me state it again, please. Start there as I asked a question first, and we can go forward.


Do, as a libertarian, you believe that all SS should be ended immediately tomorrow with no regard for the consequences to the elderly.
You said a post or two ago that social security was the Christian thing to do for our elderly. So I think it's fair to tell me if you want a theocracy since you brought up Christianity.
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Old 08-11-2014, 05:18   #211
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You said a post or two ago that social security was the Christian thing to do for our elderly. So I think it's fair to tell me if you want a theocracy since you brought up Christianity.
Yikes... What happened to the rule of a law? Sounds like idiots have been arguing for SS.


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And yes, people can be idiots. Thats why I think we shouldn't argue with them.

Get to people with an open mind and get them engaged. That is how change can come about.

It is hard, or it would be done. But many Americans shirk what is difficult under the claim it can't be done.
GG I think your original quote about self awareness applies well...
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Old 08-11-2014, 06:10   #212
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Old 08-11-2014, 06:11   #213
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I agree. I don't see eye-to-eye with one of my best friends, but I think we always, or almost always have a positive resolution and productive discussions because we're more concerned with figuring out and exploring our own views than convincing each other of that which we're still fully exploring ourselves.



If I'm reading this correctly, you're wondering when exactly you reach the point that you just decide to quit discussing the issue with a given person or person because you're convinced they're not open to new information and/or potentially changing their views...?

I guess the short answer would be I increasingly find I post in discussions and have conversations to better understand the issues and acquire new information - not to try to convince anyone else, but rather to test my own understanding and to try to do my part in dispelling ignorance, bias, preconception, prejudice. I certainly do my best to explain myself, but based on some of the responses and lack thereof, it's often quite clear I'm talking about concepts and paradigms far beyond what the average poster has a frame of reference to understand. Thus, in a certain sense I might be said to be having a conversation with Self out loud where others might benefit, where if I did so in private no one but me would be directly.

IOW, I feel fulfilled simply in broadening my own understanding. We are all responsible for effort, not result, and on a fundamental level, no one can really force anyone else to change their minds. In fact, the more I learn, the more I grow convinced that a person actually changing their mind during a discussion/argument is the extreme exception to the rule, rather than the rule itself, and I try to focus on the "nexuses" - that is, the people like yourself and myself that are genuinely eager to expand their knowledge and aren't tied down to one ignorant bias or another, but are on a neverending quest for a greater understanding of Truth.

I think I may have been unclear in intent though that was a great answer. At what point someone has reinforced your static views about them to the point a determination is made that they have no wisdom or knowledge to impart on that topic.

I will give you a great example. I have noticed that many on these posts will answer questions with questions. Deferring the response, they seek some other reference point by asking for more information in order to make the answer, when the question itself is freestanding. Yet the question is extremely pertinent to me as I want to understand what they believe and how they came to that point of opinion.


That example can be seen in a question I currently have posted, to which I get many questions but no response. Let me ask you this, have I written the following question so poorly that it requires supplemental information to answer:

“Do you believe that all SS should be ended immediately tomorrow with no regard for the consequences to the elderly?”

Is it so poorly written that there is no yes or no answer to it? Have I in fact missed some piece of information essential to formulating the response?

In trying to broaden my knowledge and reference base, I have been trying to ask that question from those who are self-defined “libertarians” in my effort to understand their views. I would like to understand the deductive process they used to get to the answer. I want to make inquiries to educate myself to their views so I can weigh the value of them. An open mind that wants to weigh the benefit of a revised viewpoint needs to ask questions in order to asses those views for incorporation.

Unfortunately the question goes unanswered, depriving me of the ability to better understand the underpinnings of their thought process. As importantly it deprives me of being able to see the basis of truth they adopted to get there so I can agree or decline to adopt their views. It also leaves me to question their reasons, unfortunately relegating my opinion of the views to my pre-established biases as I do not have clear reference points provided by them to modify my views.

That brings us to the question at what point do I just assess them against my prejudices and tune their words out as opportunities to evolve.

Too many people are seem unable to answer a direct question, which in my existing mindset indicates they feel they are weak in their position or unable to verbalize why theirs is right. Especially troublesome when I am not trying to change their view, but that I am asking them to change mine.
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Old 08-11-2014, 06:18   #214
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Old 08-11-2014, 06:20   #215
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You said a post or two ago that social security was the Christian thing to do for our elderly. So I think it's fair to tell me if you want a theocracy since you brought up Christianity.

Good morning, Gamer.

Actually, it is a simple up or down question and does not require my view at all as I simply want your view. I am asking for your view as you see it today, not in the context of one thing or another.

I do not believe that I said anything about SS being a 'Christian thing' I said that I saw no biblical basis for it, and that we should help others ourselves. In turn you have indicated you have a Christian mindset, which I can assume would be weighed into your response. Unfortunately I do not know that, as you have not answered the question in three attempts to get it.

Please, I am not trying to change your opinions, I am trying to understand you deduction process.
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Old 08-11-2014, 07:36   #216
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You said a post or two ago that social security was the Christian thing to do for our elderly. So I think it's fair to tell me if you want a theocracy since you brought up Christianity.
Lets look at SS from a Christian Point of View.


steal
[steel] Show IPA
verb (used with object), stole, sto·len, steal·ing.
1.to take (the property of another or others) without permission or right, especially secretly or by force:

theft
— n
the dishonest taking of property belonging to another person with the intention of depriving the owner permanently of its possession.

Lets go back to the basic law of Christianity. The very simple version.

Thou shalt not steal.

Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour’s.


So a TRUE Christian would not covet what I have nor wish that the state steals my possessions in their name.

Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.

Notice this one doesn't say "society will take care of thy father and thy mother". It says the CHRISTIAN should do it. If old people need taking care of and don't have the money, it is their family's responsibility.

And I will answer the question. I would like see SS cut immediately and cut the recipients off cold turkey. They have had a life to plan for retirement. Moreover, "retirement" is a very new thing in human history.

Show me one place in the US Constitution where a person has a right to retirement guaranteed by the government.
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Old 08-11-2014, 08:04   #217
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Show me one place in the US Constitution where a person has a right to retirement guaranteed by the government.
Nor does it exist in Scripture.

Retirement was invented by mankind.
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Old 08-11-2014, 08:08   #218
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What makes you think they're fans of democracy? And now you have a problem with the court system that was set up in the Constitution?

Is there ANYTHING in this country you actually like?
I can state with a reasonable level of confidence that if you poll the GLBT crowd, they are overwhelmingly in favor of the mob ruling. Except when they are not the mob. Then they will be a highly aggressive and vocal minority using the courts to accomplish their desires.

The court system as it exists is not the intent of the FF. The courts have been allowed to usurp power and authority. Matter of fact, all branches of the government ignore limits. It's a lawyer thing you know; if there is no rule against it then it must be OK.

I like many things about this country. It does not need to be "remade" into a democracy, or worse ruled by the courts. It needs to be returned to a Constitutional Republic.
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Old 08-11-2014, 09:43   #219
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I think I may have been unclear in intent though that was a great answer. At what point someone has reinforced your static views about them to the point a determination is made that they have no wisdom or knowledge to impart on that topic.
Hmm. I guess I find the answer to that in Doctor Hawkins' map of consciousness. Are their beliefs based in ignorance, and fear, and skepticism, or knowledge, Courage, and Love? Thoughts are at the level of effect, meaning they are only reflective of their concordant consciousness level.

Translation: the vast majority of human communication is done at a non-verbal level, hence once of the limitations imposed by communications mediums like forums and text messages. A fascinating experience is turning on the TV, but turning off the volume, and watching facial expressions, body language, looking into the person's eyes. Doing so is most informative, and it allows you to see the deepest level of what message is really spoken independent of the specific words used to deliver it. No matter how well-reasoned the argument for fear and paranoia, they are still an arguments for fear and paranoia. No matter how perfunctory the discussion of ideas and belief systems based in Courage or Reason, such thoughts are far stronger, far more life-affirming.

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I will give you a great example. I have noticed that many on these posts will answer questions with questions. Deferring the response, they seek some other reference point by asking for more information in order to make the answer, when the question itself is freestanding. Yet the question is extremely pertinent to me as I want to understand what they believe and how they came to that point of opinion.
Hmm. I've seen this to a certain extent myself. My conclusion from extensive study and consideration of this issue is large numbers of people are simply going along with what others have authoritatively stated to be true, independent of their own critical evaluation of the information. Hence why messianic narcissistic megalomania persists in leading large groups astray to their sorrow and even death in droves, individuals with names most of us have heard like Hitler, Stalin, Mao Tse Tung, Pol Pot, Mussolini, etc.

This is something else the map of consciousness explains well.; in lieu of an extensive discussion on that subject, think about it like this: a squirrel is poorly equipped to comprehend a shark, and both even working together are poorly equipped to comprehend even a single man, let alone all of humanity. In the same vein, one must have some frame of reference to learn a new concept; you don't teach high school level trigonometry and calculus to first graders still struggling with basic addition and subtraction.


Quote:
That example can be seen in a question I currently have posted, to which I get many questions but no response. Let me ask you this, have I written the following question so poorly that it requires supplemental information to answer:

“Do you believe that all SS should be ended immediately tomorrow with no regard for the consequences to the elderly?”

Is it so poorly written that there is no yes or no answer to it? Have I in fact missed some piece of information essential to formulating the response?
To me, that question seems to be abundantly clear. However, we go back to high school level understands vs. first grade ones; I'm convinced most have never done much critical thinking, let alone on this particular subject.

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In trying to broaden my knowledge and reference base, I have been trying to ask that question from those who are self-defined “libertarians” in my effort to understand their views. I would like to understand the deductive process they used to get to the answer. I want to make inquiries to educate myself to their views so I can weigh the value of them. An open mind that wants to weigh the benefit of a revised viewpoint needs to ask questions in order to asses those views for incorporation.

Unfortunately the question goes unanswered, depriving me of the ability to better understand the underpinnings of their thought process. As importantly it deprives me of being able to see the basis of truth they adopted to get there so I can agree or decline to adopt their views. It also leaves me to question their reasons, unfortunately relegating my opinion of the views to my pre-established biases as I do not have clear reference points provided by them to modify my views.
I understand your frustration and have been there myself - not so long ago, at that. I think what you'll find in time as I did that if you try to track those thoughts back to their source and understand them at their deepest level, you're going to see just how little most have genuinely considered the issues, and even if they have, just how irrational and non-integrous the initial premises are. Prejudice, fear, bias, even outright hatred of other groups. If you start with an irrational premise, no matter how logical you are from there, you still end up at an irrational conclusion. It's like dividing by zero; no matter what number you enter first, the calculator still responds with, "Yeah...this isn't going to work."

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That brings us to the question at what point do I just assess them against my prejudices and tune their words out as opportunities to evolve.
I'd advise posting from a perspective of better understanding things within yourself; even if you learn little if anything useful from others, you have learned something from yourself and the attempt to explain yourself, because "to teach is to learn twice;" in attempting to explain something to someone else, we learn it better and from a new perspective ourselves.

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Too many people are seem unable to answer a direct question, which in my existing mindset indicates they feel they are weak in their position or unable to verbalize why theirs is right. Especially troublesome when I am not trying to change their view, but that I am asking them to change mine.
I agree 100% with this assessment; there is shockingly little critical thought and evaluation even in the world's foremost first world country. As Hitler once reportedly said, "How fortunate for leaders men do not think."

Increasingly, though, I focus not on the negative aspect of this, and the positive aspect of who and what I am within myself; how much I have to share with others, rather than how much they don't have to share with me.

And in the process it becomes quite joyful to meet the rare individual who truly understands your struggle.

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Old 08-11-2014, 09:44   #220
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Yes, how DARE "those people" demand to be treated like human beings! The sheer audacity!
In Russia or Africa is where that audacity is needed , here they are coddled & Fast Tracked to the Top with special Rights & Protections and even though they represent less than 3% of the Population of the United States, youngsters & the clueless think it's got to be 15 to 20 % of America that is Gay or Lesbian due to power they hold Politically...

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