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Old 03-12-2014, 18:32   #41
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Originally Posted by Andy123 View Post
I think it is a very valid point. Everybody is somebodies kid. Many are brothers and some are fathers. Every execution is personal to someone or some group of people. And the idea of government wrongly killing people is horrific to most normal people.
I am pretty sure what Bren was getting at with his posts was that he is okay with the "margin of error" in our system. That doesn't mean that he is "okay" with anyone being wrongfully killed. He just accepts the fact it is an imperfect system.

I personally disagree with that to a point. No one is perfect, and mistakes do happen since everyone is human. That said, we need to make damn sure we are not going to kill an innocent man. And IMHO if you can't say with 100% certainty "I am 100% sure that he did it. There is no doubt. And he is not mentally ill or deficient" Then the death penalty should be off the table.
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Old 03-12-2014, 18:33   #42
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Originally Posted by RustyL View Post
I wouldn't have a problem with it. I would actually like them to die the same death the victim did.
You obviously did not read the article.


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Old 03-12-2014, 18:36   #43
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No I watched the first 5 minutes of the video. The man said he killed his wife in front of her father, something like that. Stabbed her to death. He admitted it.
That's what I'm referring too. So, take him out back and stab him to death.










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You obviously did not read the article.


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Old 03-12-2014, 18:41   #44
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Originally Posted by RustyL View Post
No I watched the first 5 minutes of the video. The man said he killed his wife in front of her father, something like that. Stabbed her to death. He admitted it.
That's what I'm referring too. So, take him out back and stab him to death.
Read the article. I bet you will have a different viewpoint on this case.


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Old 03-12-2014, 18:42   #45
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Originally Posted by Gun Shark View Post
I am pretty sure what Bren was getting at with his posts was that he is okay with the "margin of error" in our system. That doesn't mean that he is "okay" with anyone being wrongfully killed. He just accepts the fact it is an imperfect system.

I personally disagree with that to a point. No one is perfect, and mistakes do happen since everyone is human. That said, we need to make damn sure we are not going to kill an innocent man. And IMHO if you can't say with 100% certainty "I am 100% sure that he did it. There is no doubt. And he is not mentally ill or deficient" Then the death penalty should be off the table.
Sure, a lot of people will be OK with a certain error rate, as long as we are talking in the abstract. This is especially true when the people are are almost always the victims of the error are "other" people.

If the victim of a wrongful death penalty was someone who's kid went to school with your kid, or went to your church, or your relative, or even someone you could see on TV and identify with, then that changes the thinking process. The error becomes what once was a living breathing person being a murder victim.

As far a supporting a system which admittedly kills innocents vs doing the deed oneself is just a matter of degree.
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Old 03-12-2014, 19:02   #46
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If I read the right article. It sounds like they convicted this man on circumstantial evidence. That evidence was not told in the article. I have no opinion on this mans case.


However, I have no problem with prosecutors building a case against a person. Then, I ask if circumstantial evidence is all the prosecutors had on a person that killed your child, what would you do?






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Read the article. I bet you will have a different viewpoint on this case.


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Old 03-12-2014, 19:02   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy123 View Post
Sure, a lot of people will be OK with a certain error rate, as long as we are talking in the abstract. This is especially true when the people are are almost always the victims of the error are "other" people.

If the victim of a wrongful death penalty was someone who's kid went to school with your kid, or went to your church, or your relative, or even someone you could see on TV and identify with, then that changes the thinking process. The error becomes what once was a living breathing person being a murder victim.

As far a supporting a system which admittedly kills innocents vs doing the deed oneself is just a matter of degree.
Well we IMHO have the best system out there and the last time I saw the statistic if it hasn't changed much, we don't get it wrong a lot compared to the amount we get it right. However the wrong was still a giant number(I think 200 something thousand)


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Old 03-12-2014, 19:17   #48
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Originally Posted by RustyL View Post
If I read the right article. It sounds like they convicted this man on circumstantial evidence. That evidence was not told in the article. I have no opinion on this mans case.


However, I have no problem with prosecutors building a case against a person. Then, I ask if circumstantial evidence is all the prosecutors had on a person that killed your child, what would you do?
Personally would do nothing to the person(s). My parents wouldn't want me to, and it goes against my personality and the way they raised me.

If the prosecutors only had circumstantial evidence I would ask for life no parole.


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Old 03-12-2014, 19:22   #49
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Yessir, it would be a hard pill to swallow.








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Originally Posted by Gun Shark View Post
Personally would do nothing to the person(s). My parents wouldn't want me to, and it goes against my personality and the way they raised me.

If the prosecutors only had circumstantial evidence I would ask for life no parole.


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Old 03-12-2014, 21:35   #50
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Everyone's different. Some people are profoundly and permanently effected, some are not.
More like most people are profoundly and permanently effected, a few are not.

I find it interesting that recent studies show that between 1 to 4% of the population is a sociopath/psychopath. The reason why I find this interesting in particular is that this closely mirrors what the army found after WWII when they analyzed the effectiveness of military training/indoctrination. They found that less than 5% of any given infantry unit would shoot to kill, even to defend their own lives. The vast majority simply shot to miss or didn't shoot at all.

It is easy to kill without being mentally effected, you just have to be a sociopath or not see the person you are killing as a human being. Few of us have had the training it takes to see someone as not a human being.
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Old 03-12-2014, 21:41   #51
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So if one of your kids was facing the death penalty from a wrongful conviction, I don't suppose they could expect much help from dear old dad, huh? "Hey, not a problem, son! These things happen, our system isn't perfect, but you know what? Your story will be just THAT more interesting!!"

Heck I'd be hiring a helicopter and breaking him out of jail. But that's just me.
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Old 03-12-2014, 21:46   #52
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Originally Posted by RustyL View Post
If I read the right article. It sounds like they convicted this man on circumstantial evidence. That evidence was not told in the article. I have no opinion on this mans case.


However, I have no problem with prosecutors building a case against a person. Then, I ask if circumstantial evidence is all the prosecutors had on a person that killed your child, what would you do?
Circumstantial evidence is the best kind of evidence there is. Fingerprints, DNA, fiber analysis, those are all circumstantial evidence.

Confessions taken before the guy had a lawyer and direct eye-witness testimony, those are what I have less trust in. Unless the cops can find solid circumstantial evidence to back up the eye witness accounts and initial confessions, I would be very leery to convict.
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Old 03-12-2014, 21:58   #53
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Originally Posted by Haldor View Post
More like most people are profoundly and permanently effected, a few are not.

I find it interesting that recent studies show that between 1 to 4% of the population is a sociopath/psychopath. The reason why I find this interesting in particular is that this closely mirrors what the army found after WWII when they analyzed the effectiveness of military training/indoctrination. They found that less than 5% of any given infantry unit would shoot to kill, even to defend their own lives. The vast majority simply shot to miss or didn't shoot at all.

It is easy to kill without being mentally effected, you just have to be a sociopath or not see the person you are killing as a human being. Few of us have had the training it takes to see someone as not a human being.
I guess I'm in the group that doesn't see some people as, well, people
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Old 03-12-2014, 21:59   #54
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Originally Posted by Haldor View Post
Circumstantial evidence is the best kind of evidence there is. Fingerprints, DNA, fiber analysis, those are all circumstantial evidence.

Confessions taken before the guy had a lawyer and direct eye-witness testimony, those are what I have less trust in. Unless the cops can find solid circumstantial evidence to back up the eye witness accounts and initial confessions, I would be very leery to convict.
Thanks for pointing that out. Circumstantial evidence is generally the most factual and clear cut. Direct evidence from a witness and victim, not so much. Funny how years of TV shows/movies/books/magazine/internet experts have skewed peoples perceptions.
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Old 03-13-2014, 04:42   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haldor View Post
Circumstantial evidence is the best kind of evidence there is. Fingerprints, DNA, fiber analysis, those are all circumstantial evidence.

Confessions taken before the guy had a lawyer and direct eye-witness testimony, those are what I have less trust in. Unless the cops can find solid circumstantial evidence to back up the eye witness accounts and initial confessions, I would be very leery to convict.
We aren't talking about a conviction. We are talking about the death penalty. Yes circumstantial evidence is great especially combined with direct evidence for a conviction of "he probably did it" all the way to "he definitely did it"(however look at Ronald Cotton).

But I state again:

If we are killing people for certain crimes. We damn well better make sure they committed the crime they are on trial for... beyond any doubt, not just beyond a reasonable doubt. We can correct wrongly taking 20 years of someone's life.

How do you correct wrongly killing someone?


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Old 03-13-2014, 04:42   #56
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Thanks for pointing that out. Circumstantial evidence is generally the most factual and clear cut. Direct evidence from a witness and victim, not so much. Funny how years of TV shows/movies/books/magazine/internet experts have skewed peoples perceptions.
Read my post above.


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Old 03-13-2014, 06:24   #57
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You cannot correct " wrongly taking 20 years of someone's life" any more than you can correct wrongly putting an innocent man to death.
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Old 03-13-2014, 06:30   #58
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You cannot correct " wrongly taking 20 years of someone's life" any more than you can correct wrongly putting an innocent man to death.
If I kill you are dead. There is no coming back from dead. If I sentence you to life in prison and after 20 years it comes out you are innocent. You are released. You cannot give those 20 years back to the wrongly convicted. But you also just corrected the states conviction.

A better way of saying everything would probably have been. You can reverse/vacate a life sentence after 20 years if the person is alive. If you executed that person you cannot reverse/vacate your sentence. It was already carried out.


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Old 03-13-2014, 19:40   #59
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So? I work in the legal system. I know and accept that innocent people can be convicted and executed. No legal system is perfect. Not a problem. If the guy I'm talking about had been innocent...it would make the story more interesting to tell, but that's all.

I honestly cannot comprehend the thinking of people who get al teary eyed over this stuff. The best comparison I can give is, try to put yourself in the mind of those people who amputate body parts for a sexual thrill - that's about how close I can come to understanding the mind of a death penalty opponent.

Personally, if I was wrongly convicted, I'd much rather be sentenced to death than life.
That response made absolutely no sense.

My position as anti-death penalty is this: government is always trying to expand its power. We must draw the line of our government's power over the individual somewhere, and make it a line that can never be crossed. Drawing that line in front of a person's life, regardless of their actions, is a good place to start.
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Old 03-13-2014, 19:42   #60
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You cannot correct " wrongly taking 20 years of someone's life" any more than you can correct wrongly putting an innocent man to death.
But the person can be compensated. $100,000 a year for each year of incarceration will not "bring those years back," but it would be fair compensation for a wrongful conviction.
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