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Old 02-17-2014, 10:38   #81
Mass10mm
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Income was way down in 2013, but 2014 is looking much better. I'm a consultant, so income can be highly variable. In 2013, combined state and federal taxes came to almost 40 grand. In 2012, I paid about twice that!
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Old 02-17-2014, 12:46   #82
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It would have to be a small enough figure to be affordable to all. To the guy making $30k/year, it'd be huge. To the guy making $300k/year, it'd be pocket change. And the sum of all those taxes likely wouldn't come close to paying for the federal bloat. i.e. this just won't work unless you plan to also shut down most of the federal government.
Shut down most of the fedgov? Yes, that would be the plan.

Besides, who's business is it how much someone makes?
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Old 02-17-2014, 12:47   #83
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We got back 7500, I was the only one working and I paid for my wife's college out of pocket, no student loans, and we have a 10 month old daughter. On top of all that they took out alot of taxes haha
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Old 02-17-2014, 13:10   #84
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I see your points. However, what do we do with the people who simply don't make enough money to pay their portion of tax? Do we imprison them, which in turn costs everyone else more money yet?

I despise socialism as much as anyone, but the fact is that society contains a number of people who are too stupid, too sick, too whatever to actually earn their keep. What do we do with them?
If I don't pay my taxes they'll imprison me. It costs the taxpayers more. Why should low income folks be exempt? Maybe to avoid prison they need to go out and earn more money.
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Old 02-17-2014, 15:03   #85
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If I don't pay my taxes they'll imprison me. It costs the taxpayers more. Why should low income folks be exempt? Maybe to avoid prison they need to go out and earn more money.
Couple questions -
- in your ideal system, at what age should every person begin to pay their fed , state, county, city taxes? I assume there is no age at which they would cease to be required to pay the "capitation" taxes.
- What would be the appropriate annual spending (assume it is all obtained from the individual tax) for the fed to provide those services mandated by the constitution?
- for sake of argument, assume you lived in Louisiana in a county of 100,000 people and in a city of 15,000. What would be the appropriate state and county and city annual spending to provide those services you think they each should provide.

I'm not questioning what services you think each government entity should provide, only how much money they should be given each year to work with.

For simplicity assume all fed, state and local tax revenue is derived solely from the tax on individuals- no taxes on corporations or businesses, no sales or excise taxes, etc. This eliminates all the hidden taxes we currently pay.

Last edited by czsmithGT; 02-17-2014 at 15:06..
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Old 02-17-2014, 15:31   #86
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Originally Posted by devildog2067 View Post
It's not 7 figures.

2013 US federal expeditures:

$3,454,000 M (3.45 trillion dollars, according to CBO)

divided by

~198 M Americans aged between 18-65 in 2013 (US census bureau)

gives ~$17k, or ~$35k per household.

If you live in a household of two working adults (as many of us here do) and don't pay at least ~$35k of federal income taxes, someone else is paying your share. That level of taxes comes out, roughly, to a 100k household income.
The fed revenue was only 2.8 trillion. The rest was borrowed. There really isn't any reason to exclude people over 65 from paying tax. The total federal, state and local tax revenue was 5.4 trillion, so if it were evenly divided among each person in the usa over the age of 18, each person's total annual tax bill would be around $24,000 per year. That would not pay anything on the deficit principal nor fund and additional deficit spending.
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Old 03-04-2014, 21:05   #87
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Originally Posted by czsmithGT View Post
Couple questions -
- in your ideal system, at what age should every person begin to pay their fed , state, county, city taxes? I assume there is no age at which they would cease to be required to pay the "capitation" taxes.
- What would be the appropriate annual spending (assume it is all obtained from the individual tax) for the fed to provide those services mandated by the constitution?
- for sake of argument, assume you lived in Louisiana in a county of 100,000 people and in a city of 15,000. What would be the appropriate state and county and city annual spending to provide those services you think they each should provide.

I'm not questioning what services you think each government entity should provide, only how much money they should be given each year to work with.

For simplicity assume all fed, state and local tax revenue is derived solely from the tax on individuals- no taxes on corporations or businesses, no sales or excise taxes, etc. This eliminates all the hidden taxes we currently pay.
A few possible answers:

1. The least amount possible.
2. Whatever amount they can collect in aggregate when each citizen of majority age pays the same dollar amount.

I guess only in government can cash flow work from the bottom up wherein it is decided how much money is needed first, instead of ascertaining how much money is available and then determining prioritizing what services can be provided.

Either way, there is no semblance of liberty or fairness when one citizen (with equal rights and privileges under the law) can vote to tax another citizen more than he himself is willing or able to pay. What someone has or earns should be no business of the government's.

A free man doesn't have to provide a detailed financial accounting to bureaucrats in order to remain out of prison.
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Old 03-04-2014, 21:07   #88
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The fed revenue was only 2.8 trillion. The rest was borrowed. There really isn't any reason to exclude people over 65 from paying tax. The total federal, state and local tax revenue was 5.4 trillion, so if it were evenly divided among each person in the usa over the age of 18, each person's total annual tax bill would be around $24,000 per year. That would not pay anything on the deficit principal nor fund and additional deficit spending.
Then each citizen over 18 should pay $24,000/yr. Existing debt can be accommodated with growth and the ensuing outcry for spending cuts when every citizens actually pays their fair share and feels the full burden of the government they elect.
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Old 03-04-2014, 21:45   #89
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Nothing, I had no income in '13.
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Old 03-05-2014, 02:24   #90
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Originally Posted by certifiedfunds View Post
A few possible answers:

1. The least amount possible.
2. Whatever amount they can collect in aggregate when each citizen of majority age pays the same dollar amount.

I guess only in government can cash flow work from the bottom up wherein it is decided how much money is needed first, instead of ascertaining how much money is available and then determining prioritizing what services can be provided.

Either way, there is no semblance of liberty or fairness when one citizen (with equal rights and privileges under the law) can vote to tax another citizen more than he himself is willing or able to pay. What someone has or earns should be no business of the government's.

A free man doesn't have to provide a detailed financial accounting to bureaucrats in order to remain out of prison.
The least amount possible is zero for someone living on tax-free land and being totally self-sustaining.

But assuming something greater than zero, who is going to decide how much is available since every person over the age of 18 has to pay the same amount? Does everyone vote on an amount and then get rid of anyone who can't pay that? Or maybe you could set the tax for everyone at 50% of what the poorest/lowest earner makes.
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Old 03-05-2014, 02:35   #91
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Then each citizen over 18 should pay $24,000/yr. Existing debt can be accommodated with growth and the ensuing outcry for spending cuts when every citizens actually pays their fair share and feels the full burden of the government they elect.
I think it would probably work better to eliminate all individual, corporate income and excise taxes, eliminate all tax credits, and set a sales tax on every sale of goods (and services?) to end users at around 35% to be divided on some set ratio among local, state and federal governments. I guess you could have a good debate about the relative merits of a flat tax versus a value added tax. Each has big potential problems.
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Old 03-05-2014, 05:56   #92
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The least amount possible is zero for someone living on tax-free land and being totally self-sustaining.

But assuming something greater than zero, who is going to decide how much is available since every person over the age of 18 has to pay the same amount? Does everyone vote on an amount and then get rid of anyone who can't pay that? Or maybe you could set the tax for everyone at 50% of what the poorest/lowest earner makes.
It really isn't as complicated as some people want to make it.

Federal budget / citizens over 18 = bill

No, it should not be 50% of the lowest earner's income. Enough with the mandatory reporting of the income. It should be irrelevant.
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Old 03-05-2014, 06:00   #93
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I think it would probably work better to eliminate all individual, corporate income and excise taxes, eliminate all tax credits, and set a sales tax on every sale of goods (and services?) to end users at around 35% to be divided on some set ratio among local, state and federal governments. I guess you could have a good debate about the relative merits of a flat tax versus a value added tax. Each has big potential problems.
Generally, when you tax something you get less of it. While over time it might find equilibrium, I'm not sure its a good idea to tax consumer spending so heavily. Also, It will still remain very progressive. Finally, implementing a new form of taxation without repealing the 16th Amendment (at a minimum) would be suicidal.
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Old 03-05-2014, 08:33   #94
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As others have said, sounds really wrong. Even after what few deductions we have the wife and I ended up paying around 20% taxes.

We need to get some more deductions though. We don't have many. Gotta figure that one out for 2014 taxes. We are looking into buying a house so that will help.
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Old 03-05-2014, 12:15   #95
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Rough snapshot of total corporate tax paid vs individual for 2009 is about 1/4. Not factored in are international, estate, trust, gov't entity, etc.

Tax stats

The real # to look at is Total Tax, not TXI even AGI. If you have a bunch of adjustments, then exemptions/deductions, your base tax starts lower. Add in credits (child tax, education, retirement savings, etc) and the net tax can be significantly less. Finally, withholding and estimated payments = refund if life is good.

You can leave a lot on the table if you don't use all your options. IRS sometimes tells you that you could owe less, but some things only you know.

It's why the tax preparation industry is so big.

Adjusting your Withholding
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Old 03-05-2014, 15:42   #96
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Finally, implementing a new form of taxation without repealing the 16th Amendment (at a minimum) would be suicidal.
I agree.
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Old 03-05-2014, 16:48   #97
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I agree.
I feel like we should open a nice bottle of champagne and each say a few words to commemorate the occasion.
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Old 03-05-2014, 17:14   #98
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Old 03-05-2014, 17:19   #99
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I feel like we should open a nice bottle of champagne and each say a few words to commemorate the occasion.
I acutally LOL'd.
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Old 03-05-2014, 17:59   #100
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I feel like we should open a nice bottle of champagne and each say a few words to commemorate the occasion.
Just send me a money order- it will make you feel good and I can get a bottle of wine. A real win-win.
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