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Old 02-16-2014, 08:11   #141
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One issue that's rarely brought up in these threads is that Andrew Johnson did all he could to punish the south after Lincoln's assassination. Lincoln wanted to heal the country; Johnson and his cohorts were responsible for a lot of the hard feelings that persist. Naturally, money was at the core of the punishment and some of those in power and their friends benefited greatly.
Very true.
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Old 02-16-2014, 08:15   #142
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What I don't understand is why do the Confederate sympathizers on here think they would have been better off under a government which promulgated the subjugation and slavery of an entire race of people?

Is that the best way to respect human rights?
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Old 02-16-2014, 08:16   #143
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You can go outside and play now...
Don't get too far away, breakfast will be ready soon.
Already had it; PB&J and Teddy Grahams sann'ich with the crusts cut off.

Gotta go, License to Kill is coming on.
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Old 02-16-2014, 08:19   #144
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...
Gotta go, License to Kill is coming on.
Yeah well, go entertain yourself and let the adults talk for a while.
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Old 02-16-2014, 08:20   #145
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Furthermore,

a) We all know that there were slaves in the northern states until abolition.

b) history records that many of those involved in the procurement and transport of slaves were northerners.

c) the north was every bit as dependent on slavery in the south as slave-owning southerners. The industrial economy of the northern states was based on the slave-enabled production of agricultural products from southern plantations. Cotton being supplied to the textile mills of Massachusetts and Connecticut is the obvious example of this, but not by any means the only example.

No one of sound mind can justify or condone the enslavement of human beings..

But to base the emotional content of argument on the topic of confederate secession in retrospect on the premise that slavery was something of which the south was solely and uniquely at fault is disingenuous at best and otherwise just ignorant.
Emotional content? What could possibly be emotional about it?
I'm making a completely MORAL and ETHICAL argument using the founding documents of our nation as a basis for my claim.

No "Northern" states (above the Mason Dixon line) held slaves. The border states like KY, Missouri etc had some slaves. Its disingenuous to claim that the North is as guilty as the South because there were legal slaveholders in those states. We all know it was the Southern politicians who prevented the abolition of Slavery and INSISTED not only on maintaining slavery but expanding it to the West... Again the history of the nation before the war is ALL about this issue... Burning Kansas, The Missouri Compromise, etc etc etc. If slavery was dead why did Southern politicians continue to insist on expanding slave territory to the west? Hmmm?

The myth of Northern dependency on the South for food (or cotton) is easily debunked by this simple fact. The North would have starved (or gone naked) during the war if that were true. The fact is that the North was agriculturally VERY productive and prosperous. It wasn't a single crop monoculture that depleted the soil like Tobacco or Cotton in the South. Its an economic fact. And of course the north didn't starve during the war (or go half naked)..but southerners did!

The issue was resolved by the war. It was made LAW by the US Congress with the adoption of the 13th Amendment by a Congress reflecting all the states.
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Old 02-16-2014, 08:21   #146
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Yeah well, go entertain yourself and let the adults talk for a while.
A Roger Moore fan, I take it.
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Old 02-16-2014, 08:26   #147
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What rights exactly?
A strong state and a weaker Federal government. The Federal government should provide for the common defence and get out of the efforts to be a part of my personal life. Whether we are talking about healthcare or my ability to earn money, I don't want the gov involved.
As far as slavery, I consider that most people are living in a form of economic slavery by virtue of living from paycheck to paycheck thereby being dependant on owners. Those who live with an EBT card are equally dependant on owners, in that case the owner is the gov, funded by those who are paying taxes.
I will die soon, but you folks are going to have to resolve exactly what kind of country this will be. I do not envy you, because I really think this country will erupt in war of the most sordid kind.
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Old 02-16-2014, 08:27   #148
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What I don't understand is why do the Confederate sympathizers on here think they would have been better off under a government which promulgated the subjugation and slavery of an entire race of people?

Is that the best way to respect human rights?
Specifically with regard to what "Confederate sympathizers on here think"...

As has been pointed out numerous times, slavery would have died in 10 - 15 years regardless.

And again, to espouse that it was only "the confederates" who hold the blame for slavery is to deliberately hide from the truth. The entire nation had been a part of the institution of slavery. The entire nation benefited from slavery.
It was only in the few years before the war that abolition was instituted and the practice of slavery was outlawed in the northern states.

You are creating a false premise to post that the confederation was
Quote:
a government which promulgated the subjugation and slavery of an entire race of people?
as if they and they alone were guilty of slavery.

And again, no one can say how long the confederacy would have continued slavery if secession had been successful.

You are "arm-chair quarterbacking" through a very narrow and time-distorted lens.
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Old 02-16-2014, 08:29   #149
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...
The myth of Northern dependency on the South for food (or cotton) is easily debunked by this simple fact. ...
Where in my post did I use the word "food" ???
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Old 02-16-2014, 08:31   #150
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One issue that's rarely brought up in these threads is that Andrew Johnson did all he could to punish the south after Lincoln's assassination. Lincoln wanted to heal the country; Johnson and his cohorts were responsible for a lot of the hard feelings that persist. Naturally, money was at the core of the punishment and some of those in power and their friends benefited greatly.
Wasn't Johnson impeached and almost convicted because he did not take punishment of the South far enough?
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Old 02-16-2014, 08:34   #151
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Specifically with regard to what "Confederate sympathizers on here think"...

As has been pointed out numerous times, slavery would have died in 10 - 15 years regardless.
If you or I were held in bondage, 10 or 15 years would be a very very long time.
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Old 02-16-2014, 08:38   #152
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If you or I were held in bondage, 10 or 15 years would be a very very long time.
I quite agree.
Doesn't change the point of my post however.
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Old 02-16-2014, 08:47   #153
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Just throwing in my 2 cents...

For me, it's not about the Confederacy. For me, it's about Abraham Lincoln, our 16th President. For me, it's utter disgust at those here who hate or despise the man. What the hell is wrong with you? It's almost like you idiots are glad that he got a .44 Caliber ball shot to the back of the skull. Go to hell!

I've ALWAYS admired, almost loved, Abraham Lincoln. I love his work, his speeches, and his writings. And those that don't just plain godamn piss me off.

Get out of the country if you have no love for the man! Without him, I'm convinced that this country would be well down **** creek by now; probably overrun with Commies, Nazis, or Japs. Is that the kind of country you would want to be living in right now? And NO, despite our dislike of our current president, he is NOT a complete Communist. I'm not defending him, but believe me: it would be much worse if Pol Pot, Mao, Hitler, or Mussolini had had their way with this country.

Let me ask you this: who else, in 1860, could have led this country and kept the United States together, if not Lincoln? The answer is simple: NOBODY.

Those whom spit at the feet of this great and honorable man deserve neither respect or admiration. Instead, they get exactly what they deserve; what they yearn for: sympathy for the Confederacy.

You LOST! Get over it.
Shorter version... You bought the myth about the tyrant, anyone who didn't should leave.

Wow.

Curious, do you also believe Henry Ford invented the car and Thomas Edison invented the light bulb? What about people who know better, do you allow them to stay? Those are right up there with Lincoln freed the slaves!
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Old 02-16-2014, 08:55   #154
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You folks who repeat this simplistic observation display a truly sophomoric understanding of the history of your nation.

Here's WHY Lincoln only freed the slaves in the south...
The Emancipation Proclamation would have been an Unconstitutional exercise of executive power in the states not in rebellion. But as commander in chief, Lincoln clearly had the power to declare marshal law in territories in rebellion and deny Southerner's property which could be employed in "the cause" against the Federal government.

Any High School level American history course would have covered this.

YOU FOLKS may wish to research the president's ability to suspend the constitution in times of emergency. I did learn that in high school.
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Old 02-16-2014, 08:57   #155
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Originally Posted by Atlas View Post
Specifically with regard to what "Confederate sympathizers on here think"...

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As has been pointed out numerous times, slavery would have died in 10 - 15 years regardless.
Speculation at best.


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And again, to espouse that it was only "the confederates" who hold the blame for slavery is to deliberately hide from the truth.


I never stated that the confederates were the only ones responsible. However, they were the only ones to state that their secession was due to them wanting to keep the institution of slavery.

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The entire nation had been a part of the institution of slavery. The entire nation benefited from slavery.
It was only in the few years before the war that abolition was instituted and the practice of slavery was outlawed in the northern states.
Slavery was the major political/moral issue for at least 20 years before the CW.


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You are creating a false premise to post that the confederation was as if they and they alone were guilty of slavery.
No, but they are the ones with the stated purpose of keeping it as an institution.

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And again, no one can say how long the confederacy would have continued slavery if secession had been successful.
You just said above that it was 10-15 years.

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You are "arm-chair quarterbacking" through a very narrow and time-distorted lens.
My degree in history comes in handy, at times.
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Old 02-16-2014, 09:06   #156
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Speculation at best.
IF your degree is in history, I think you can see from where that speculation originates.
Political - the south was not unified on the issue of slavery.
Economic - only the wealthy could even afford slaves and the industrial revolution was just up the road.



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I never stated that the confederates were the only ones responsible. However, they were the only ones to state that their secession was due to them wanting to keep the institution of slavery.
Irrelevant to the point I clearly stated.

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Slavery was the major political/moral issue for at least 20 years before the CW.
Yep. In the north, the south, and the border states and western territories.

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No, but they are the ones with the stated purpose of keeping it as an institution.
And the stated purpose of self-determination... which you and many others are glossing-over.

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You just said above that it was 10-15 years.
And we agreed it's speculation, so what's your point?

Folks, with apology I have other things to do today, so I am out of this discussion, at least for now.

Feel free to PM me with any comments or replies you may wish.
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Old 02-16-2014, 09:09   #157
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Where in my post did I use the word "food" ???
Others here in this thread have made this claim.
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Old 02-16-2014, 09:30   #158
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Good thread. I now feel ummmm uhhhhh emancipated
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Old 02-16-2014, 09:31   #159
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The South fought the war to preserve slavery as an institution. The North fought it to preserve the Union.

If you doubt that I would encourage you to read the transcripts of speeches by numerous Southern agitators to various state legislatures arguing for succession and war. Or read the "Cornerstone" speech by the Confederate vice president Alexander Stephens... http://teachingamericanhistory.org/l...rstone-speech/ The words of Southern politicians regarding the cause for the war were clear and unambiguous and do not agree with the premise that the cause of the war was anything BUT slavery. . At least they were clear until after the war when the southern revisionist history movement got its start and they conveniently changed their tune. I'd be happy to post their comments here and embarrass you more if you'd prefer.

We didn't fight a war in which a half million men died over a tariff, or railroads, or "state's rights"...

Anyone who studied the history of this nation between its founding and the civil war understands that the #1 political issue of this nation for its first 70 years was the issue of slavery.
Then how can you explain Tennessee continuing to side with the confederacy after abolishing slavery?
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Old 02-16-2014, 09:36   #160
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Furthermore,

a) We all know that there were slaves in the northern states until abolition.

b) history records that many of those involved in the procurement and transport of slaves were northerners.

c) the north was every bit as dependent on slavery in the south as slave-owning southerners. The industrial economy of the northern states was based on the slave-enabled production of agricultural products from southern plantations. Cotton being supplied to the textile mills of Massachusetts and Connecticut is the obvious example of this, but not by any means the only example.

No one of sound mind can justify or condone the enslavement of human beings..

But to base the emotional content of argument on the topic of confederate secession in retrospect on the premise that slavery was something of which the south was solely and uniquely at fault is disingenuous at best and otherwise just ignorant.
Atlas,

Your history is a bit off on this issue. To be sure ALL the American Colonies benefited from slavery at some time in their past. But with the founding of the United States and the adoption of the Constitution we changed course...

By the turn of the 19th century all northern states had made slavery illegal and a few had allowed slave owners to granfather in their exisitng holdings. To be sure NJ had slaves up until the Civil War...the total number was 18... Still too many and certainly an injustice. But the practice was legally and for all practical purposes dead.

http://slavenorth.com/

Which is quite interesting because the political history of the United States prior to the civil war isn't about whether we should have slavery or not. Its whether we allow it in the western territories or not. And when Kansas, for example decided on their own NOT to allow slavery, Southern agitators INVADED Kansas and under force of arms tried to terrorize the people in the territory into accepting slavery (Google "Bleeding Kansas")

The truth is the Kansas-Nebraska act which allowed people in the western states to decide the issue of slavery by popular vote was STRONGLY opposed by southern slave holding states and seen as a nullification of the Missouri compromise of the 1820's which set an arbitrary grid line as the formal demarcation between slave states and free states. Yes, isn't it interesting that Southern States opposed popular sovereignty when it came to the issue of slavery? But but but...its all about states rights? Hogwash...
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