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Old 02-16-2014, 06:59   #121
Atlas
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Regardless of slavery as an issue, the basis of rebellion and secession was the right of the people and the state governments they had instituted to be free to determine their own fate and decide the issue for themselves.

The OP's original premise in this thread was that if the union had not been preserved then we would not have the benefit today of a stable, benevolent central government.

The truth is, no one can assert that and we will never know.

Following the war, if the south had been able to successfully secede, anything could have happened from that point. I choose to believe that the union would have been re-formed in some manner after 8 or 10 years and we would all be better off today as a result. Perhaps not in the same form it exists today, but that too may have achieved a stronger, better union over time. But again, we will never know.

Wave the red white and blue and thump your chest if you wish, but the right of the individual to liberty and self-determination trumps all else.
That after all is the basis of the original federal union.
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Old 02-16-2014, 07:00   #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HollowHead View Post
I love these threads. They bring out all the Harry Turtledove nutcases. HH
I like his writing.
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Old 02-16-2014, 07:02   #123
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pit bulls, cops and donuts and now southern hate. you guys are really pressing you luck today. ibtl!
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Old 02-16-2014, 07:19   #124
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Originally Posted by Big Bird View Post
The South fought the war to preserve slavery as an institution. The North fought it to preserve the Union.
There you go - make your side look like a winner by making an "apples to oranges" argument.

If we are talking slavery, then the south was for and the north was against.

If we are talking about the right to leave the union vs. the right to use force to make states stay in, then the south was for states rights and the north was against.

However, when you mix and match those to paint the worst view of the south and the best view of the north, it is a typically disingenuous Yankee civil war argument.



And for those who wonder, yes, our opinions reflect the actual division of Kentucky during the war, when most of the state sided with the south, but Louisville, when big bird lives, and the area near Cincinnati sided with the north. The Legislature voted to officially remains neutral in the war and stay in the union, while a collation of the majority of counties voted to side with the south. Since both civil war presidents were from Kentucky, it's not a big surprise that it was confusing.
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Old 02-16-2014, 07:21   #125
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i respectfully disagree.

The culture i would like to see return is one where the states and the individuals are respected. Where you can take a breath without violating 14 federal laws. Where the feds do not use the commerce clause to justify governmental overreach.

It has nothing to do with plantations or slavery or mint juleps.
exactly

And, yes, the helmet in the picture has a confederate flag on the other side. A bigger one.
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Old 02-16-2014, 07:21   #126
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One issue that's rarely brought up in these threads is that Andrew Johnson did all he could to punish the south after Lincoln's assassination. Lincoln wanted to heal the country; Johnson and his cohorts were responsible for a lot of the hard feelings that persist. Naturally, money was at the core of the punishment and some of those in power and their friends benefited greatly.
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Old 02-16-2014, 07:26   #127
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Yep, whatever, put me down as a confederate sympathizer... Without apology!
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Old 02-16-2014, 07:31   #128
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I've always believed that Timothy Dalton was a better 007 than Pierce Brosnan. He was definitely a much-needed improvement over Roger Moore. Shame he only made two movies.
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Old 02-16-2014, 07:35   #129
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I am descended from some Illinois Copperheads. Not sure if it is truly genetic, but States Rights means a lot to me. So put me down as a Copperhead just sunning myself in the middle of a trail, think carefully before stepping on me. Lest you be bewildered Amazon has at least one very well researched book on the Copperheads during the Civil War era.
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Old 02-16-2014, 07:36   #130
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I've always believed that Timothy Dalton was a better 007 than Pierce Brosnan. He was definitely a much-needed improvement over Roger Moore. Shame he only made two movies.
You can go outside and play now...
Don't get too far away, breakfast will be ready soon.
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Old 02-16-2014, 07:40   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Atlas View Post
Regardless of slavery as an issue, the basis of rebellion and secession was the right of the people and the state governments they had instituted to be free to determine their own fate and decide the issue for themselves.

The OP's original premise in this thread was that if the union had not been preserved then we would not have the benefit today of a stable, benevolent central government.

The truth is, no one can assert that and we will never know.

Following the war, if the south had been able to successfully secede, anything could have happened from that point. I choose to believe that the union would have been re-formed in some manner after 8 or 10 years and we would all be better off today as a result. Perhaps not in the same form it exists today, but that too may have achieved a stronger, better union over time. But again, we will never know.

Wave the red white and blue and thump your chest if you wish, but the right of the individual to liberty and self-determination trumps all else.
That after all is the basis of the original federal union.
"...the right of the individual to liberty and self-determination trumps all else."
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Old 02-16-2014, 07:45   #132
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S-e-c-e-s-s-i-o-n
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Old 02-16-2014, 07:54   #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Atlas View Post
Regardless of slavery as an issue, the basis of rebellion and secession was the right of the people and the state governments they had instituted to be free to determine their own fate and decide the issue for themselves.

The OP's original premise in this thread was that if the union had not been preserved then we would not have the benefit today of a stable, benevolent central government.

The truth is, no one can assert that and we will never know.

Following the war, if the south had been able to successfully secede, anything could have happened from that point. I choose to believe that the union would have been re-formed in some manner after 8 or 10 years and we would all be better off today as a result. Perhaps not in the same form it exists today, but that too may have achieved a stronger, better union over time. But again, we will never know.

Wave the red white and blue and thump your chest if you wish, but the right of the individual to liberty and self-determination trumps all else.
That after all is the basis of the original federal union.
Don't disagree with anything you said EXCEPT the point about liberty and self determination.

1. The Confederate Constitution made slavery a Federal issue wherein the individual Confederate states had no ability to determine the issue for themselves... So its kind of disingenuous to argue this was about states rights and then give the states in your new government no say in a very crucial matter...no?

2. How one can defend liberty with one breath and defend the cruel and disgraceful bondage of 6 million human beings with another strikes me as a bit rich...

What has happened to the Federal Government since the Civil War is troublesome for sure. But to lay the blame for all that's transpired since that national tragedy at the feet of Lincoln is nothing more than an attempt to absolve us of the care of the institution which we inherited. Our fate is as we make it...not what the Union Army made it 149 years ago.
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Old 02-16-2014, 07:55   #134
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Originally Posted by w9trb View Post
I am descended from some Illinois Copperheads. Not sure if it is truly genetic, but States Rights means a lot to me. So put me down as a Copperhead just sunning myself in the middle of a trail, think carefully before stepping on me. Lest you be bewildered Amazon has at least one very well researched book on the Copperheads during the Civil War era.
What rights exactly?
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Old 02-16-2014, 07:57   #135
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Originally Posted by Big Bird View Post
...

2. How one can defend liberty with one breath and defend the cruel and disgraceful bondage of 6 million human beings with another strikes me as a bit rich...
...
I did not in any way justify or condone slavery in my post.
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Old 02-16-2014, 08:02   #136
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What rights exactly?
In post #124 Bren mentions the right to secede.
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Old 02-16-2014, 08:03   #137
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I did not in any way justify or condone slavery in my post.

No...but you did bring up the issue of liberty. Which, as I said, is a rather interesting concept in the context of the Confederate reasons for secession....
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Old 02-16-2014, 08:04   #138
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I've always believed that Timothy Dalton was a better 007 than Pierce Brosnan. He was definitely a much-needed improvement over Roger Moore. Shame he only made two movies.
Roger Moore was the best James Bond. Timothy Dalton was awkward. Had Pierce Brosnan would have made those movies except for his contract with Remington Steele.
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Old 02-16-2014, 08:07   #139
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Furthermore,

a) We all know that there were slaves in the northern states until abolition.

b) history records that many of those involved in the procurement and transport of slaves were northerners.

c) the north was every bit as dependent on slavery in the south as slave-owning southerners. The industrial economy of the northern states was based on the slave-enabled production of agricultural products from southern plantations. Cotton being supplied to the textile mills of Massachusetts and Connecticut is the obvious example of this, but not by any means the only example.

No one of sound mind can justify or condone the enslavement of human beings..

But to base the emotional content of argument on the topic of confederate secession in retrospect on the premise that slavery was something of which the south was solely and uniquely at fault is disingenuous at best and otherwise just ignorant.
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Last edited by Atlas; 02-16-2014 at 08:11..
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Old 02-16-2014, 08:10   #140
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In post #124 Bren mentions the right to secede.
You do know the issue of secession was not new to the Union in 1861 right?

You also know that the author of the Constitution--James Madison--a Southerner (Virginia), said secession was not a right nor an option during the crisis provoked by South Carolina 30 years before the Civil War right? I mean, you'd think the guy who drafted the document knew a little bit about it...

You also, I'm sure, know that another Southerner--Andrew Jackson, slave owner and then President at the time said that secession from the Union is not an option.

So the issue to secede or not has a LONG history with many southerners arguing that its not an option. The Confederates made it an issue of open rebellion and armed conflict. The issue was decided on the battlefield. Guess what...
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