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Old 02-16-2014, 07:34   #151
norton
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Atlas View Post
Specifically with regard to what "Confederate sympathizers on here think"...

As has been pointed out numerous times, slavery would have died in 10 - 15 years regardless.
If you or I were held in bondage, 10 or 15 years would be a very very long time.
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Old 02-16-2014, 07:38   #152
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If you or I were held in bondage, 10 or 15 years would be a very very long time.
I quite agree.
Doesn't change the point of my post however.
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Old 02-16-2014, 07:47   #153
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Originally Posted by Jade Falcon View Post
Just throwing in my 2 cents...

For me, it's not about the Confederacy. For me, it's about Abraham Lincoln, our 16th President. For me, it's utter disgust at those here who hate or despise the man. What the hell is wrong with you? It's almost like you idiots are glad that he got a .44 Caliber ball shot to the back of the skull. Go to hell!

I've ALWAYS admired, almost loved, Abraham Lincoln. I love his work, his speeches, and his writings. And those that don't just plain godamn piss me off.

Get out of the country if you have no love for the man! Without him, I'm convinced that this country would be well down **** creek by now; probably overrun with Commies, Nazis, or Japs. Is that the kind of country you would want to be living in right now? And NO, despite our dislike of our current president, he is NOT a complete Communist. I'm not defending him, but believe me: it would be much worse if Pol Pot, Mao, Hitler, or Mussolini had had their way with this country.

Let me ask you this: who else, in 1860, could have led this country and kept the United States together, if not Lincoln? The answer is simple: NOBODY.

Those whom spit at the feet of this great and honorable man deserve neither respect or admiration. Instead, they get exactly what they deserve; what they yearn for: sympathy for the Confederacy.

You LOST! Get over it.
Shorter version... You bought the myth about the tyrant, anyone who didn't should leave.

Wow.

Curious, do you also believe Henry Ford invented the car and Thomas Edison invented the light bulb? What about people who know better, do you allow them to stay? Those are right up there with Lincoln freed the slaves!
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Old 02-16-2014, 07:55   #154
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Originally Posted by Big Bird View Post
You folks who repeat this simplistic observation display a truly sophomoric understanding of the history of your nation.

Here's WHY Lincoln only freed the slaves in the south...
The Emancipation Proclamation would have been an Unconstitutional exercise of executive power in the states not in rebellion. But as commander in chief, Lincoln clearly had the power to declare marshal law in territories in rebellion and deny Southerner's property which could be employed in "the cause" against the Federal government.

Any High School level American history course would have covered this.

YOU FOLKS may wish to research the president's ability to suspend the constitution in times of emergency. I did learn that in high school.
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Old 02-16-2014, 07:57   #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Atlas View Post
Specifically with regard to what "Confederate sympathizers on here think"...

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Originally Posted by Atlas View Post
As has been pointed out numerous times, slavery would have died in 10 - 15 years regardless.
Speculation at best.


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And again, to espouse that it was only "the confederates" who hold the blame for slavery is to deliberately hide from the truth.


I never stated that the confederates were the only ones responsible. However, they were the only ones to state that their secession was due to them wanting to keep the institution of slavery.

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The entire nation had been a part of the institution of slavery. The entire nation benefited from slavery.
It was only in the few years before the war that abolition was instituted and the practice of slavery was outlawed in the northern states.
Slavery was the major political/moral issue for at least 20 years before the CW.


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You are creating a false premise to post that the confederation was as if they and they alone were guilty of slavery.
No, but they are the ones with the stated purpose of keeping it as an institution.

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And again, no one can say how long the confederacy would have continued slavery if secession had been successful.
You just said above that it was 10-15 years.

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You are "arm-chair quarterbacking" through a very narrow and time-distorted lens.
My degree in history comes in handy, at times.
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Old 02-16-2014, 08:06   #156
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Originally Posted by Detectorist View Post
Speculation at best.
IF your degree is in history, I think you can see from where that speculation originates.
Political - the south was not unified on the issue of slavery.
Economic - only the wealthy could even afford slaves and the industrial revolution was just up the road.



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I never stated that the confederates were the only ones responsible. However, they were the only ones to state that their secession was due to them wanting to keep the institution of slavery.
Irrelevant to the point I clearly stated.

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Originally Posted by Detectorist View Post
Slavery was the major political/moral issue for at least 20 years before the CW.
Yep. In the north, the south, and the border states and western territories.

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No, but they are the ones with the stated purpose of keeping it as an institution.
And the stated purpose of self-determination... which you and many others are glossing-over.

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You just said above that it was 10-15 years.
And we agreed it's speculation, so what's your point?

Folks, with apology I have other things to do today, so I am out of this discussion, at least for now.

Feel free to PM me with any comments or replies you may wish.
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Old 02-16-2014, 08:09   #157
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Where in my post did I use the word "food" ???
Others here in this thread have made this claim.
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Old 02-16-2014, 08:30   #158
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Good thread. I now feel ummmm uhhhhh emancipated
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Old 02-16-2014, 08:31   #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Bird View Post
The South fought the war to preserve slavery as an institution. The North fought it to preserve the Union.

If you doubt that I would encourage you to read the transcripts of speeches by numerous Southern agitators to various state legislatures arguing for succession and war. Or read the "Cornerstone" speech by the Confederate vice president Alexander Stephens... http://teachingamericanhistory.org/l...rstone-speech/ The words of Southern politicians regarding the cause for the war were clear and unambiguous and do not agree with the premise that the cause of the war was anything BUT slavery. . At least they were clear until after the war when the southern revisionist history movement got its start and they conveniently changed their tune. I'd be happy to post their comments here and embarrass you more if you'd prefer.

We didn't fight a war in which a half million men died over a tariff, or railroads, or "state's rights"...

Anyone who studied the history of this nation between its founding and the civil war understands that the #1 political issue of this nation for its first 70 years was the issue of slavery.
Then how can you explain Tennessee continuing to side with the confederacy after abolishing slavery?
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Old 02-16-2014, 08:36   #160
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Furthermore,

a) We all know that there were slaves in the northern states until abolition.

b) history records that many of those involved in the procurement and transport of slaves were northerners.

c) the north was every bit as dependent on slavery in the south as slave-owning southerners. The industrial economy of the northern states was based on the slave-enabled production of agricultural products from southern plantations. Cotton being supplied to the textile mills of Massachusetts and Connecticut is the obvious example of this, but not by any means the only example.

No one of sound mind can justify or condone the enslavement of human beings..

But to base the emotional content of argument on the topic of confederate secession in retrospect on the premise that slavery was something of which the south was solely and uniquely at fault is disingenuous at best and otherwise just ignorant.
Atlas,

Your history is a bit off on this issue. To be sure ALL the American Colonies benefited from slavery at some time in their past. But with the founding of the United States and the adoption of the Constitution we changed course...

By the turn of the 19th century all northern states had made slavery illegal and a few had allowed slave owners to granfather in their exisitng holdings. To be sure NJ had slaves up until the Civil War...the total number was 18... Still too many and certainly an injustice. But the practice was legally and for all practical purposes dead.

http://slavenorth.com/

Which is quite interesting because the political history of the United States prior to the civil war isn't about whether we should have slavery or not. Its whether we allow it in the western territories or not. And when Kansas, for example decided on their own NOT to allow slavery, Southern agitators INVADED Kansas and under force of arms tried to terrorize the people in the territory into accepting slavery (Google "Bleeding Kansas")

The truth is the Kansas-Nebraska act which allowed people in the western states to decide the issue of slavery by popular vote was STRONGLY opposed by southern slave holding states and seen as a nullification of the Missouri compromise of the 1820's which set an arbitrary grid line as the formal demarcation between slave states and free states. Yes, isn't it interesting that Southern States opposed popular sovereignty when it came to the issue of slavery? But but but...its all about states rights? Hogwash...
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Old 02-16-2014, 08:42   #161
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Slavery is alive and well in 2014.

World wide it is between 4 to 12 million.
The FBI says that it might be 300,000 in the United States.

It happens in every part of the United States, northern and southern, east and west. Major truck stops are many times hubs of this activity.

Slavery doesn't cause much alarm for most now and probably didn't 150 years ago.

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Old 02-16-2014, 08:44   #162
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South Carolina, the first state to secede, in it's "Declaration of the Immediate Causes Which Induce and Justify the Secession of South Carolina from the Federal Union" explicitly states that secession was about states rights concerning slavery.
They did not state any reason other than slavery.

Eliminate the slavery issue and SC would not have seceded.

To those that advocate that it was about state rights and not about slavery are delusional. South Carolina was afraid that slavery was about to be abolished. To say it was truly about state rights would be to say that the 2A is truly about militias (in the modern sense of the term).

Read the "Declaration of the Immediate Causes Which Induce and Justify the Secession of South Carolina from the Federal Union"
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/csa_scarsec.asp

Nope not about slavery.
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Old 02-16-2014, 08:50   #163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by norton View Post
If you or I were held in bondage, 10 or 15 years would be a very very long time.
Depends on how into that sort of thing you are
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Old 02-16-2014, 08:57   #164
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Speaking of Illinois in the Civil War. I have been googling my behind off and cannot find any documentation (yet), but I remember hearing/reading somewhere that Williamson County in southern IL also seceded from the union.

As far as my own ancestry, I got ancestors on both sides.
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Old 02-16-2014, 08:57   #165
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It appears that we have several people who are Confederate Sympathizers on this board. They believe Lincoln was wrong in keeping the nation together.



Isn't it unAmerican to be a Confederate Sympathizer?




For those born in the south, I mean if the Confederates were successful, you wouldn't be an American. If you were lucky, you would be a confederate. If you were unlucky, you could be Mexican or a German or....

I'd say YOU are the one who is un-American!

The South had more of the "American Ideal" by wanting to determine their own destiny whereas the North wanted to limit and control and, where it couldnt limit or control, they destroy or captured.

The North imposed it's will on Free States and it's citizens, a lot like what we see going on in today's Keyan Admin through the widespread, unchecked use of Executive Orders, EPA "oversight", NSA etc....

Lincoln pretty much shredded the Consitituion and especially the 10th Amendment to further his cause of controlling the South and ensuring the uninterrupted flow of textiles to the North at insanely cheap prices instead of letting the South sell those same textiles to higher paying customers. The Civil War, like most of our wars was about money and control by those with political influence paid for with the blood of the poor.
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Old 02-16-2014, 09:01   #166
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Well, then, there's no reason for me to start liking you. We'd be a better country if that POS had never been elected. I can't believe a gun owner would be a Lincoln fan, but I guess some vote Democrat and love their all-powerful federal government and just have guns for a hobby.
Ah, an a-hole making an assumption. I expected better of you, Bren. Most posts that I've seen of you on this forum over the years depict you as an intelligent person. Perhaps I'm wrong...

I've never voted Democrat before in my life, and I NEVER will. Guns aren't my "hobby"; they're my God-Given Right as a free man (something the Confederacy seemed to have a problem with; ya know: that whole part about whipping and selling black people for profit...). And I despise what our Federal Government has become today.

But people like you take a person's admiration and respect for a strong, smart, and wise president from 1860, and try to spin it like I wished Saddam Hussein were our leader. Pathetic, really. Pathetic and sad. Are you THAT narrow-minded?

It's almost as if because I liked Michael Richards when he played in "Seinfeld", means that I support his racist viewpoints that he spouted during his infamous stand-up routine. Absurd. Absurd and ludicrous.

But I hardly expect anything I say to get through such a narrow mind. So believe whatever you want to believe about me. Tell ya what: Hitler was awesome, Pol Pot had the right idea, and Stalin was simply a misunderstood individual.

There. That should help you REALLY hate my guts. Now, I'm hoping you'll see the sarcasm in the above post. But something tells me you'll think that I'm serious about what I just typed....

Dunno, don't care. Truth be told, I've lost interest in this thread. I will leave you all with this: don't be so quick to judge Lincoln. He had a REALLY nasty job, a VERY hard life and, I believe, did the best he could under the circumstances at the time. I challenge you to find someone at that moment of time whom could have done a better job. You're kidding yourselves if you think Jefferson Davis was that man.

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Old 02-16-2014, 09:05   #167
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Emotional content? What could possibly be emotional about it?
I'm making a completely MORAL and ETHICAL argument using the founding documents of our nation as a basis for my claim.

No "Northern" states (above the Mason Dixon line) held slaves. The border states like KY, Missouri etc had some slaves. Its disingenuous to claim that the North is as guilty as the South because there were legal slaveholders in those states. We all know it was the Southern politicians who prevented the abolition of Slavery and INSISTED not only on maintaining slavery but expanding it to the West... Again the history of the nation before the war is ALL about this issue... Burning Kansas, The Missouri Compromise, etc etc etc. If slavery was dead why did Southern politicians continue to insist on expanding slave territory to the west? Hmmm?

The myth of Northern dependency on the South for food (or cotton) is easily debunked by this simple fact. The North would have starved (or gone naked) during the war if that were true. The fact is that the North was agriculturally VERY productive and prosperous. It wasn't a single crop monoculture that depleted the soil like Tobacco or Cotton in the South. Its an economic fact. And of course the north didn't starve during the war (or go half naked)..but southerners did!

The issue was resolved by the war. It was made LAW by the US Congress with the adoption of the 13th Amendment by a Congress reflecting all the states.
The 1860 census indicates some slaves in New Jersey.

Regarding food and cotton, in the short term The North was able to feed itself well, towards the of the civil war food was becoming scarce and a good number of northerners starved during the last two winters of the war. Had the war continued or had the south won food would have been a huge problem for the north. More or less the same applies to cotton.

The Border States didn't have some slaves, as in a handful, the 1860 census indicates that number was around 400,000.

A key but rarely discussed reason The North won..................The North had roughly 3x the number of fighting aged men.
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Old 02-16-2014, 09:17   #168
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It is not a civil war thread.

It is an I am an American when it suits me and a Confederate when it doesn't, thread.
I told you this would become a Civil War thread.
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Old 02-16-2014, 09:22   #169
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You do know the issue of secession was not new to the Union in 1861 right?

You also know that the author of the Constitution--James Madison--a Southerner (Virginia), said secession was not a right nor an option during the crisis provoked by South Carolina 30 years before the Civil War right? I mean, you'd think the guy who drafted the document knew a little bit about it...

You also, I'm sure, know that another Southerner--Andrew Jackson, slave owner and then President at the time said that secession from the Union is not an option.

So the issue to secede or not has a LONG history with many southerners arguing that its not an option. The Confederates made it an issue of open rebellion and armed conflict. The issue was decided on the battlefield. Guess what...
If that's the only/ultimate 'States Rights' issue that has been brought up since you asked, what are they talking about, then?
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Old 02-16-2014, 09:23   #170
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Then how can you explain Tennessee continuing to side with the confederacy after abolishing slavery?
Perhaps they had more in common philosophically and culturally with the rural and agricultural South than the Northern Urban Industrialists.
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Old 02-16-2014, 09:24   #171
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Then how can you explain Tennessee continuing to side with the confederacy after abolishing slavery?




There was a very large part of Tennessee that was against siding with the Confederacy, and came very close to seceding and becoming a separate state, as West Virginia did. Interestingly, even though the Confederate States thought they had the right to secede from the union, they thought that West Virginia seceding from Virginia and joining the Union was, according to this quote from The Richmond Examiner, "against all the laws of God and man". When the New England states threatened to secede from the union during the government, led by the southern states, threatened to keep them in the union with violence, if necessary.


I find it interesting Southern apologists tend to gloss over these facts, and others, like Andrew Stephens inaugural address stating the cornerstone of the Confederacy was slavery. For those who say that slavery was going to die out there, it was clearly stated in the constitution could never be outlawed.


I grew up in Richmond, Va, and was raised on the myth of the Lost Cause. In college I did my Master's Thesis on the origins of the Civil War. Let's just say it was a eye-opening experience.
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Old 02-16-2014, 09:29   #172
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Well, then, there's no reason for me to start liking you. We'd be a better country if that POS had never been elected. I can't believe a gun owner would be a Lincoln fan, but I guess some vote Democrat and love their all-powerful federal government and just have guns for a hobby.
I'll be damned, I agree with you on something.
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Old 02-16-2014, 09:31   #173
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Just throwing in my 2 cents...

For me, it's not about the Confederacy. For me, it's about Abraham Lincoln, our 16th President. For me, it's utter disgust at those here who hate or despise the man. What the hell is wrong with you? It's almost like you idiots are glad that he got a .44 Caliber ball shot to the back of the skull. Go to hell!

I've ALWAYS admired, almost loved, Abraham Lincoln. I love his work, his speeches, and his writings. And those that don't just plain godamn piss me off.

Get out of the country if you have no love for the man! Without him, I'm convinced that this country would be well down **** creek by now; probably overrun with Commies, Nazis, or Japs. Is that the kind of country you would want to be living in right now? And NO, despite our dislike of our current president, he is NOT a complete Communist. I'm not defending him, but believe me: it would be much worse if Pol Pot, Mao, Hitler, or Mussolini had had their way with this country.

Let me ask you this: who else, in 1860, could have led this country and kept the United States together, if not Lincoln? The answer is simple: NOBODY.

Those whom spit at the feet of this great and honorable man deserve neither respect or admiration. Instead, they get exactly what they deserve; what they yearn for: sympathy for the Confederacy.

You LOST! Get over it.

A) I didn't lose anything, as I wasn't born.

B) I identify myself as a Texan first and foremost.

C) The only tragedy about Lincoln's execution was that it happened five years too late.

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Old 02-16-2014, 09:35   #174
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Ah, what the heck...

Atlas, I think you're very wrong about slavery being doomed in the Confederacy. It was codified into their constitution: "No bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law denying or impairing the right of property in negro slaves shall be passed."

Ain't no way that peculiar institution is dying out in 10-15 years when it's enshrined (several times, actually) in the founding document.
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Old 02-16-2014, 09:37   #175
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The South had cooler fighting song.

Dixie Land was and is a much hipper song than Hymn of the Republic.
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