GlockTalk.com
Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-16-2014, 06:21   #126
oldgraywolf
NRA, SAF
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: N.W. Lower Michigan
Posts: 3,265
One issue that's rarely brought up in these threads is that Andrew Johnson did all he could to punish the south after Lincoln's assassination. Lincoln wanted to heal the country; Johnson and his cohorts were responsible for a lot of the hard feelings that persist. Naturally, money was at the core of the punishment and some of those in power and their friends benefited greatly.
__________________
Good judgment comes from experience; experience comes from bad judgment.

definatally
rediculas
theirs'
oldgraywolf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2014, 06:26   #127
OMCHamlin
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Eastern Shore, VA
Posts: 248
Yep, whatever, put me down as a confederate sympathizer... Without apology!
OMCHamlin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2014, 06:31   #128
Rizzo
Garbage Day!
 
Rizzo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Donkeypile, AZ
Posts: 2,214
I've always believed that Timothy Dalton was a better 007 than Pierce Brosnan. He was definitely a much-needed improvement over Roger Moore. Shame he only made two movies.
Rizzo is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2014, 06:35   #129
w9trb
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 237
I am descended from some Illinois Copperheads. Not sure if it is truly genetic, but States Rights means a lot to me. So put me down as a Copperhead just sunning myself in the middle of a trail, think carefully before stepping on me. Lest you be bewildered Amazon has at least one very well researched book on the Copperheads during the Civil War era.
w9trb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2014, 06:36   #130
Atlas
transmogrifier
 
Atlas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: north of the equator
Posts: 14,864
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rizzo View Post
I've always believed that Timothy Dalton was a better 007 than Pierce Brosnan. He was definitely a much-needed improvement over Roger Moore. Shame he only made two movies.
You can go outside and play now...
Don't get too far away, breakfast will be ready soon.
__________________
June 28, 2012: the day the American republic died.

Uncontrolled, unaccountable government spending + Graduated income-tax = SLAVERY
Atlas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2014, 06:40   #131
hogfish
Señor Member
 
hogfish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: fl
Posts: 4,048
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atlas View Post
Regardless of slavery as an issue, the basis of rebellion and secession was the right of the people and the state governments they had instituted to be free to determine their own fate and decide the issue for themselves.

The OP's original premise in this thread was that if the union had not been preserved then we would not have the benefit today of a stable, benevolent central government.

The truth is, no one can assert that and we will never know.

Following the war, if the south had been able to successfully secede, anything could have happened from that point. I choose to believe that the union would have been re-formed in some manner after 8 or 10 years and we would all be better off today as a result. Perhaps not in the same form it exists today, but that too may have achieved a stronger, better union over time. But again, we will never know.

Wave the red white and blue and thump your chest if you wish, but the right of the individual to liberty and self-determination trumps all else.
That after all is the basis of the original federal union.
"...the right of the individual to liberty and self-determination trumps all else."
__________________
Opinions are like noses...everybody's got one.

"Almost no matter the question, capitalism and freedom are the answers, while government and religion are not." Syclone538
hogfish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2014, 06:45   #132
hogfish
Señor Member
 
hogfish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: fl
Posts: 4,048
S-e-c-e-s-s-i-o-n
__________________
Opinions are like noses...everybody's got one.

"Almost no matter the question, capitalism and freedom are the answers, while government and religion are not." Syclone538
hogfish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2014, 06:54   #133
Big Bird
NRA Life Member
 
Big Bird's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 10,039
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atlas View Post
Regardless of slavery as an issue, the basis of rebellion and secession was the right of the people and the state governments they had instituted to be free to determine their own fate and decide the issue for themselves.

The OP's original premise in this thread was that if the union had not been preserved then we would not have the benefit today of a stable, benevolent central government.

The truth is, no one can assert that and we will never know.

Following the war, if the south had been able to successfully secede, anything could have happened from that point. I choose to believe that the union would have been re-formed in some manner after 8 or 10 years and we would all be better off today as a result. Perhaps not in the same form it exists today, but that too may have achieved a stronger, better union over time. But again, we will never know.

Wave the red white and blue and thump your chest if you wish, but the right of the individual to liberty and self-determination trumps all else.
That after all is the basis of the original federal union.
Don't disagree with anything you said EXCEPT the point about liberty and self determination.

1. The Confederate Constitution made slavery a Federal issue wherein the individual Confederate states had no ability to determine the issue for themselves... So its kind of disingenuous to argue this was about states rights and then give the states in your new government no say in a very crucial matter...no?

2. How one can defend liberty with one breath and defend the cruel and disgraceful bondage of 6 million human beings with another strikes me as a bit rich...

What has happened to the Federal Government since the Civil War is troublesome for sure. But to lay the blame for all that's transpired since that national tragedy at the feet of Lincoln is nothing more than an attempt to absolve us of the care of the institution which we inherited. Our fate is as we make it...not what the Union Army made it 149 years ago.
__________________
Big Bird,

“Est Nulla Via Invia Virute”
Big Bird is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2014, 06:55   #134
Big Bird
NRA Life Member
 
Big Bird's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 10,039
Quote:
Originally Posted by w9trb View Post
I am descended from some Illinois Copperheads. Not sure if it is truly genetic, but States Rights means a lot to me. So put me down as a Copperhead just sunning myself in the middle of a trail, think carefully before stepping on me. Lest you be bewildered Amazon has at least one very well researched book on the Copperheads during the Civil War era.
What rights exactly?
__________________
Big Bird,

“Est Nulla Via Invia Virute”
Big Bird is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2014, 06:57   #135
Atlas
transmogrifier
 
Atlas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: north of the equator
Posts: 14,864
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Bird View Post
...

2. How one can defend liberty with one breath and defend the cruel and disgraceful bondage of 6 million human beings with another strikes me as a bit rich...
...
I did not in any way justify or condone slavery in my post.
__________________
June 28, 2012: the day the American republic died.

Uncontrolled, unaccountable government spending + Graduated income-tax = SLAVERY
Atlas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2014, 07:02   #136
hogfish
Señor Member
 
hogfish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: fl
Posts: 4,048
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Bird View Post
What rights exactly?
In post #124 Bren mentions the right to secede.
__________________
Opinions are like noses...everybody's got one.

"Almost no matter the question, capitalism and freedom are the answers, while government and religion are not." Syclone538
hogfish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2014, 07:03   #137
Big Bird
NRA Life Member
 
Big Bird's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 10,039
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atlas View Post
I did not in any way justify or condone slavery in my post.

No...but you did bring up the issue of liberty. Which, as I said, is a rather interesting concept in the context of the Confederate reasons for secession....
__________________
Big Bird,

“Est Nulla Via Invia Virute”
Big Bird is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2014, 07:04   #138
HalfHazzard
Señor Member
 
HalfHazzard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 1,005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rizzo View Post
I've always believed that Timothy Dalton was a better 007 than Pierce Brosnan. He was definitely a much-needed improvement over Roger Moore. Shame he only made two movies.
Roger Moore was the best James Bond. Timothy Dalton was awkward. Had Pierce Brosnan would have made those movies except for his contract with Remington Steele.
__________________
The right to Bears arms shall not be infringed.
HalfHazzard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2014, 07:07   #139
Atlas
transmogrifier
 
Atlas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: north of the equator
Posts: 14,864
Furthermore,

a) We all know that there were slaves in the northern states until abolition.

b) history records that many of those involved in the procurement and transport of slaves were northerners.

c) the north was every bit as dependent on slavery in the south as slave-owning southerners. The industrial economy of the northern states was based on the slave-enabled production of agricultural products from southern plantations. Cotton being supplied to the textile mills of Massachusetts and Connecticut is the obvious example of this, but not by any means the only example.

No one of sound mind can justify or condone the enslavement of human beings..

But to base the emotional content of argument on the topic of confederate secession in retrospect on the premise that slavery was something of which the south was solely and uniquely at fault is disingenuous at best and otherwise just ignorant.
__________________
June 28, 2012: the day the American republic died.

Uncontrolled, unaccountable government spending + Graduated income-tax = SLAVERY

Last edited by Atlas; 02-16-2014 at 07:11..
Atlas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2014, 07:10   #140
Big Bird
NRA Life Member
 
Big Bird's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 10,039
Quote:
Originally Posted by hogfish View Post
In post #124 Bren mentions the right to secede.
You do know the issue of secession was not new to the Union in 1861 right?

You also know that the author of the Constitution--James Madison--a Southerner (Virginia), said secession was not a right nor an option during the crisis provoked by South Carolina 30 years before the Civil War right? I mean, you'd think the guy who drafted the document knew a little bit about it...

You also, I'm sure, know that another Southerner--Andrew Jackson, slave owner and then President at the time said that secession from the Union is not an option.

So the issue to secede or not has a LONG history with many southerners arguing that its not an option. The Confederates made it an issue of open rebellion and armed conflict. The issue was decided on the battlefield. Guess what...
__________________
Big Bird,

“Est Nulla Via Invia Virute”
Big Bird is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2014, 07:11   #141
Detectorist
Senior Member
 
Detectorist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Robertsville, MO
Posts: 7,554
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldgraywolf View Post
One issue that's rarely brought up in these threads is that Andrew Johnson did all he could to punish the south after Lincoln's assassination. Lincoln wanted to heal the country; Johnson and his cohorts were responsible for a lot of the hard feelings that persist. Naturally, money was at the core of the punishment and some of those in power and their friends benefited greatly.
Very true.
__________________
NASM-Certified Personal Trainer

The single biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place”. George Bernard Shaw
Detectorist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2014, 07:15   #142
Detectorist
Senior Member
 
Detectorist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Robertsville, MO
Posts: 7,554
What I don't understand is why do the Confederate sympathizers on here think they would have been better off under a government which promulgated the subjugation and slavery of an entire race of people?

Is that the best way to respect human rights?
__________________
NASM-Certified Personal Trainer

The single biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place”. George Bernard Shaw
Detectorist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2014, 07:16   #143
Rizzo
Garbage Day!
 
Rizzo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Donkeypile, AZ
Posts: 2,214
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atlas View Post
You can go outside and play now...
Don't get too far away, breakfast will be ready soon.
Already had it; PB&J and Teddy Grahams sann'ich with the crusts cut off.

Gotta go, License to Kill is coming on.
Rizzo is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2014, 07:19   #144
Atlas
transmogrifier
 
Atlas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: north of the equator
Posts: 14,864
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rizzo View Post
...
Gotta go, License to Kill is coming on.
Yeah well, go entertain yourself and let the adults talk for a while.
__________________
June 28, 2012: the day the American republic died.

Uncontrolled, unaccountable government spending + Graduated income-tax = SLAVERY
Atlas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2014, 07:20   #145
Big Bird
NRA Life Member
 
Big Bird's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 10,039
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atlas View Post
Furthermore,

a) We all know that there were slaves in the northern states until abolition.

b) history records that many of those involved in the procurement and transport of slaves were northerners.

c) the north was every bit as dependent on slavery in the south as slave-owning southerners. The industrial economy of the northern states was based on the slave-enabled production of agricultural products from southern plantations. Cotton being supplied to the textile mills of Massachusetts and Connecticut is the obvious example of this, but not by any means the only example.

No one of sound mind can justify or condone the enslavement of human beings..

But to base the emotional content of argument on the topic of confederate secession in retrospect on the premise that slavery was something of which the south was solely and uniquely at fault is disingenuous at best and otherwise just ignorant.
Emotional content? What could possibly be emotional about it?
I'm making a completely MORAL and ETHICAL argument using the founding documents of our nation as a basis for my claim.

No "Northern" states (above the Mason Dixon line) held slaves. The border states like KY, Missouri etc had some slaves. Its disingenuous to claim that the North is as guilty as the South because there were legal slaveholders in those states. We all know it was the Southern politicians who prevented the abolition of Slavery and INSISTED not only on maintaining slavery but expanding it to the West... Again the history of the nation before the war is ALL about this issue... Burning Kansas, The Missouri Compromise, etc etc etc. If slavery was dead why did Southern politicians continue to insist on expanding slave territory to the west? Hmmm?

The myth of Northern dependency on the South for food (or cotton) is easily debunked by this simple fact. The North would have starved (or gone naked) during the war if that were true. The fact is that the North was agriculturally VERY productive and prosperous. It wasn't a single crop monoculture that depleted the soil like Tobacco or Cotton in the South. Its an economic fact. And of course the north didn't starve during the war (or go half naked)..but southerners did!

The issue was resolved by the war. It was made LAW by the US Congress with the adoption of the 13th Amendment by a Congress reflecting all the states.
__________________
Big Bird,

“Est Nulla Via Invia Virute”

Last edited by Big Bird; 02-16-2014 at 07:28..
Big Bird is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2014, 07:21   #146
Rizzo
Garbage Day!
 
Rizzo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Donkeypile, AZ
Posts: 2,214
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atlas View Post
Yeah well, go entertain yourself and let the adults talk for a while.
A Roger Moore fan, I take it.
Rizzo is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2014, 07:26   #147
w9trb
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 237
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Bird View Post
What rights exactly?
A strong state and a weaker Federal government. The Federal government should provide for the common defence and get out of the efforts to be a part of my personal life. Whether we are talking about healthcare or my ability to earn money, I don't want the gov involved.
As far as slavery, I consider that most people are living in a form of economic slavery by virtue of living from paycheck to paycheck thereby being dependant on owners. Those who live with an EBT card are equally dependant on owners, in that case the owner is the gov, funded by those who are paying taxes.
I will die soon, but you folks are going to have to resolve exactly what kind of country this will be. I do not envy you, because I really think this country will erupt in war of the most sordid kind.
w9trb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2014, 07:27   #148
Atlas
transmogrifier
 
Atlas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: north of the equator
Posts: 14,864
Quote:
Originally Posted by Detectorist View Post
What I don't understand is why do the Confederate sympathizers on here think they would have been better off under a government which promulgated the subjugation and slavery of an entire race of people?

Is that the best way to respect human rights?
Specifically with regard to what "Confederate sympathizers on here think"...

As has been pointed out numerous times, slavery would have died in 10 - 15 years regardless.

And again, to espouse that it was only "the confederates" who hold the blame for slavery is to deliberately hide from the truth. The entire nation had been a part of the institution of slavery. The entire nation benefited from slavery.
It was only in the few years before the war that abolition was instituted and the practice of slavery was outlawed in the northern states.

You are creating a false premise to post that the confederation was
Quote:
a government which promulgated the subjugation and slavery of an entire race of people?
as if they and they alone were guilty of slavery.

And again, no one can say how long the confederacy would have continued slavery if secession had been successful.

You are "arm-chair quarterbacking" through a very narrow and time-distorted lens.
__________________
June 28, 2012: the day the American republic died.

Uncontrolled, unaccountable government spending + Graduated income-tax = SLAVERY
Atlas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2014, 07:29   #149
Atlas
transmogrifier
 
Atlas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: north of the equator
Posts: 14,864
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Bird View Post
...
The myth of Northern dependency on the South for food (or cotton) is easily debunked by this simple fact. ...
Where in my post did I use the word "food" ???
__________________
June 28, 2012: the day the American republic died.

Uncontrolled, unaccountable government spending + Graduated income-tax = SLAVERY
Atlas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2014, 07:31   #150
norton
Senior Member
 
norton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Land of Lincoln, the growing years
Posts: 6,602
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldgraywolf View Post
One issue that's rarely brought up in these threads is that Andrew Johnson did all he could to punish the south after Lincoln's assassination. Lincoln wanted to heal the country; Johnson and his cohorts were responsible for a lot of the hard feelings that persist. Naturally, money was at the core of the punishment and some of those in power and their friends benefited greatly.
Wasn't Johnson impeached and almost convicted because he did not take punishment of the South far enough?
__________________
Tinker to Evers to Chance.
norton is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:02.



Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 1,251
371 Members
880 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,244
Nov 11, 2013 at 11:42