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Old 02-15-2014, 23:51   #101
countsk
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Not sure if I'm a Confederate sympathizer or not but I do share one thing in common with the former Confederacy....I think America would be better served with stronger state governments and a decentralized federal government. You could make a valid argument that the Confederacy had a better grasp of our founders intent than "true Americans".
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Old 02-16-2014, 00:29   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G29Reload View Post
No he did not. They were all free.

Please read or make a copy of said proclamation and post it here word for word. Thanks.

Ohhh, and "Read the books". (Click on my avatar!)

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Old 02-16-2014, 00:46   #103
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Originally Posted by countsk View Post
Not sure if I'm a Confederate sympathizer or not but I do share one thing in common with the former Confederacy....I think America would be better served with stronger state governments and a decentralized federal government. You could make a valid argument that the Confederacy had a better grasp of our founders intent than "true Americans".
Really. These guys must be in hog heaven glorying at obama running all over everybody. So far he's managed to do it less the blood of a million americans than lincoln. He must be a real hero.
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Old 02-16-2014, 00:53   #104
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Old 02-16-2014, 01:42   #105
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I just.... No.
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Old 02-16-2014, 02:00   #106
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Originally Posted by G29Reload View Post
No he did not. They were all free.
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Originally Posted by Gray_Rider View Post
Please read or make a copy of said proclamation and post it here word for word. Thanks.,,




It proclaimed the freedom of slaves in the ten states that were still in rebellion.
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Old 02-16-2014, 02:35   #107
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Let me pose a fairly rational question. What if Lincoln would not waged war? Slavery would have ended anyways. (not an excuse) it was a doomed institution. The theories as to what would have happened are never ending but one thought is the north would have collapsed under it liberal weight a lot sooner (as it has done in a lot of cases) without the south to buoy it in a lot of ways, the North and South might have reconciled on pretty peaceful/economic terms without the loss of so many people.


Slavery was not a doomed institution in the CSA. It was guaranteed in their constitution that slavery could never be outlawed.
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Old 02-16-2014, 03:03   #108
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Slavery was not a doomed institution in the CSA. It was guaranteed in their constitution that slavery could never be outlawed.




I think the Rabbi meant that it was doomed from a moral as well as an economic standpoint, which is correct.


A large majority of the educated Southerners, including Robt. E. Lee, despised slavery, but the bigger issue for them was what to do with millions of manumitted slaves if indeed manumission had been granted without a war.
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Old 02-16-2014, 03:13   #109
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Yes

No, If the documents of succession didn't explicitly mention slavery, then I would agree with you, but from the Souths prospective it was all about slavery.

This being said, if someone came after my property, I would have issue with it also.
No, it was about money, and control. Control of money. Just like everything other war.
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Old 02-16-2014, 03:13   #110
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North-South relations and race relations would not have been the same had Lincoln not been assassinated. Reconstruction was handled all wrong and we'll all pay for it for centuries.
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Old 02-16-2014, 03:25   #111
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Problem being there was no expected slave revolt that the EP was written for and realeased to forment, and there never was even through the death throes of the Confederacy.

Slavery built every nation on earth at one time or another but it is only "evil" when it was practiced in the Antibellum South, where slaves were purchaced not stolen.

No one has yet advised me as to how the two irreplacible staples of this country's founding, could have been produced without the introduction of slavery. Cotton and Tobacco could have not been produced in the quantities needed without the introduction of slave labor. There were no machines that could have done the work. Cotton and tobacco was the currency of the South for decades on end and the colonies before that. Whites did not have the numbers or the health that could produce tobacco and later cotton needed and clear millions of acres of raw wilderness to produce it to start with.
Slavery WORKED when nothing else would or did, and every state in the union was involved with it in one way or another till it became unprofitable. IE in the more industrialised North. Cotton and tobacco could not have been produced in the needed amounts without it, because machines were not yet invented that could replace the millions of man hours it required.

It worked. Admit it. Accept it. Get over it. And no. The war wasn't fought to stop it.

Read Lincoln's inagurual address. He promises war on any state not accepting the new tax that would have bankrupted the South.

But all this and much much more is in the books....

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Old 02-16-2014, 04:09   #112
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Gray Rider, I have nothing against you personally, however your pseudo Neo-Confederate views are delusional and founded on historical "tripe" by non peer reviewed historians who have no penchant for objectivity and ignore primary historical accounts by Confederate leaders as well as others of the period in question.


Anyone doubting this can read the previously locked thread here:




http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/show...ight=Dragoon44
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Old 02-16-2014, 04:14   #113
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Gray Rider, I have nothing against you personally, however your pseudo Neo-Confederate views are delusional and founded on historical "tripe" by non peer reviewed historians who have no penchant for objectivity and ignore primary historical accounts by Confederate leaders as well as others of the period in question.


Anyone doubting this can read the previously locked thread here:

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/show...ight=Dragoon44
You're saying the american civil war was about slavery and calling somebody else delusional for posting historical tripe? That's beautiful.
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Old 02-16-2014, 04:45   #114
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Just throwing in my 2 cents...

For me, it's not about the Confederacy. For me, it's about Abraham Lincoln, our 16th President. For me, it's utter disgust at those here who hate or despise the man. What the hell is wrong with you? It's almost like you idiots are glad that he got a .44 Caliber ball shot to the back of the skull. Go to hell!

I've ALWAYS admired, almost loved, Abraham Lincoln. I love his work, his speeches, and his writings. And those that don't just plain godamn piss me off.

Get out of the country if you have no love for the man! Without him, I'm convinced that this country would be well down **** creek by now; probably overrun with Commies, Nazis, or Japs. Is that the kind of country you would want to be living in right now? And NO, despite our dislike of our current president, he is NOT a complete Communist. I'm not defending him, but believe me: it would be much worse if Pol Pot, Mao, Hitler, or Mussolini had had their way with this country.

Let me ask you this: who else, in 1860, could have led this country and kept the United States together, if not Lincoln? The answer is simple: NOBODY.

Those whom spit at the feet of this great and honorable man deserve neither respect or admiration. Instead, they get exactly what they deserve; what they yearn for: sympathy for the Confederacy.

You LOST! Get over it.
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Old 02-16-2014, 04:57   #115
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Originally Posted by G29Reload View Post
No he did not. They were all free.
You better read some history...the proclamation would be a good start. He only freed slaves in those parts of the south that rebelled (the idea being to create an internal slave rebellion). Some states - Kentucky for example - still had perfectly legal slavery even after the end of the civil war, up until the 13th Amendment became law.
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Old 02-16-2014, 05:02   #116
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I understand the whole southern pride thing. I lived there.

However the entire culture they are pining for is long gone and even back then was only possible because of the institution of slavery.

They want to relive the myth of the south without acknowledging it was all based on slavery.
Then, no, you don't understand it. If you did, you'd understand that everybody involved in gun rights is a confederate sympathizer, as is everybody concerned about the federal government, the NSA, the IRS, immigration, etc.

The culture the south wanted, and we want back, is just one where states have more rule of themselves and the feds are as strictly limited as they were before the war/Lincoln. Tennessee, for example, made slavery illegal by state law, during the war, but they continued to side with the confederacy and fight the union - that was not about slavery and plantations.

If you have convinced yourself "the South" was about that tiny minority who lived on plantations, owned slaves and grew cotton, then you don't even begin to get it. Those were not the people who joined up to fight the Yankees, so ask yourself why the poor were fighting for the south and why that doesn't add up to the myth you have been fed.
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Old 02-16-2014, 05:07   #117
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You forgot the part about Lincoln and the indians.


Quote:
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Just throwing in my 2 cents...

For me, it's not about the Confederacy. For me, it's about Abraham Lincoln, our 16th President. For me, it's utter disgust at those here who hate or despise the man. What the hell is wrong with you? It's almost like you idiots are glad that he got a .44 Caliber ball shot to the back of the skull. Go to hell!

I've ALWAYS admired, almost loved, Abraham Lincoln. I love his work, his speeches, and his writings. And those that don't just plain godamn piss me off.

Get out of the country if you have no love for the man! Without him, I'm convinced that this country would be well down **** creek by now; probably overrun with Commies, Nazis, or Japs. Is that the kind of country you would want to be living in right now? And NO, despite our dislike of our current president, he is NOT a complete Communist. I'm not defending him, but believe me: it would be much worse if Pol Pot, Mao, Hitler, or Mussolini had had their way with this country.

Let me ask you this: who else, in 1860, could have led this country and kept the United States together, if not Lincoln? The answer is simple: NOBODY.

Those whom spit at the feet of this great and honorable man deserve neither respect or admiration. Instead, they get exactly what they deserve; what they yearn for: sympathy for the Confederacy.

You LOST! Get over it.
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Old 02-16-2014, 05:31   #118
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Originally Posted by Jade Falcon View Post
Just throwing in my 2 cents...

For me, it's not about the Confederacy. For me, it's about Abraham Lincoln, our 16th President. For me, it's utter disgust at those here who hate or despise the man. What the hell is wrong with you? It's almost like you idiots are glad that he got a .44 Caliber ball shot to the back of the skull. Go to hell!

I've ALWAYS admired, almost loved, Abraham Lincoln. I love his work, his speeches, and his writings. And those that don't just plain godamn piss me off.
Well, then, there's no reason for me to start liking you. We'd be a better country if that POS had never been elected. I can't believe a gun owner would be a Lincoln fan, but I guess some vote Democrat and love their all-powerful federal government and just have guns for a hobby.
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Old 02-16-2014, 05:32   #119
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Then, no, you don't understand it. If you did, you'd understand that everybody involved in gun rights is a confederate sympathizer, as is everybody concerned about the federal government, the NSA, the IRS, immigration, etc.

The culture the south wanted, and we want back, is just one where states have more rule of themselves and the feds are as strictly limited as they were before the war/Lincoln. Tennessee, for example, made slavery illegal by state law, during the war, but they continued to side with the confederacy and fight the union - that was not about slavery and plantations.

If you have convinced yourself "the South" was about that tiny minority who lived on plantations, owned slaves and grew cotton, then you don't even begin to get it. Those were not the people who joined up to fight the Yankees, so ask yourself why the poor were fighting for the south and why that doesn't add up to the myth you have been fed.
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Old 02-16-2014, 05:39   #120
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You're saying the american civil war was about slavery and calling somebody else delusional for posting historical tripe? That's beautiful.
The South fought the war to preserve slavery as an institution. The North fought it to preserve the Union.

If you doubt that I would encourage you to read the transcripts of speeches by numerous Southern agitators to various state legislatures arguing for succession and war. Or read the "Cornerstone" speech by the Confederate vice president Alexander Stephens... http://teachingamericanhistory.org/l...rstone-speech/ The words of Southern politicians regarding the cause for the war were clear and unambiguous and do not agree with the premise that the cause of the war was anything BUT slavery. . At least they were clear until after the war when the southern revisionist history movement got its start and they conveniently changed their tune. I'd be happy to post their comments here and embarrass you more if you'd prefer.

We didn't fight a war in which a half million men died over a tariff, or railroads, or "state's rights"...

Anyone who studied the history of this nation between its founding and the civil war understands that the #1 political issue of this nation for its first 70 years was the issue of slavery.
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Old 02-16-2014, 05:59   #121
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Regardless of slavery as an issue, the basis of rebellion and secession was the right of the people and the state governments they had instituted to be free to determine their own fate and decide the issue for themselves.

The OP's original premise in this thread was that if the union had not been preserved then we would not have the benefit today of a stable, benevolent central government.

The truth is, no one can assert that and we will never know.

Following the war, if the south had been able to successfully secede, anything could have happened from that point. I choose to believe that the union would have been re-formed in some manner after 8 or 10 years and we would all be better off today as a result. Perhaps not in the same form it exists today, but that too may have achieved a stronger, better union over time. But again, we will never know.

Wave the red white and blue and thump your chest if you wish, but the right of the individual to liberty and self-determination trumps all else.
That after all is the basis of the original federal union.
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Old 02-16-2014, 06:00   #122
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I love these threads. They bring out all the Harry Turtledove nutcases. HH
I like his writing.
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Old 02-16-2014, 06:02   #123
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pit bulls, cops and donuts and now southern hate. you guys are really pressing you luck today. ibtl!
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Old 02-16-2014, 06:19   #124
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The South fought the war to preserve slavery as an institution. The North fought it to preserve the Union.
There you go - make your side look like a winner by making an "apples to oranges" argument.

If we are talking slavery, then the south was for and the north was against.

If we are talking about the right to leave the union vs. the right to use force to make states stay in, then the south was for states rights and the north was against.

However, when you mix and match those to paint the worst view of the south and the best view of the north, it is a typically disingenuous Yankee civil war argument.



And for those who wonder, yes, our opinions reflect the actual division of Kentucky during the war, when most of the state sided with the south, but Louisville, when big bird lives, and the area near Cincinnati sided with the north. The Legislature voted to officially remains neutral in the war and stay in the union, while a collation of the majority of counties voted to side with the south. Since both civil war presidents were from Kentucky, it's not a big surprise that it was confusing.
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Old 02-16-2014, 06:21   #125
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i respectfully disagree.

The culture i would like to see return is one where the states and the individuals are respected. Where you can take a breath without violating 14 federal laws. Where the feds do not use the commerce clause to justify governmental overreach.

It has nothing to do with plantations or slavery or mint juleps.
exactly

And, yes, the helmet in the picture has a confederate flag on the other side. A bigger one.
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