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Old 02-15-2014, 23:10   #81
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"That on the first day of January, in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and sixty-three, all persons held as slaves within any State or designated part of a State, the people whereof shall then be in rebellion against the United States, shall be then, thenceforward, and forever free; and the Executive Government of the United States, including the military and naval authority thereof, will recognize and maintain the freedom of such persons, and will do no act or acts to repress such persons, or any of them, in any efforts they may make for their actual freedom."

I always found it interesting that Mr. Lincoln only freed the slaves in the south. As pointed out prior, why not ALL slaves. It was an effort to weaken the South.
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Old 02-15-2014, 23:14   #82
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Lee surrendered. I didn't. Not a sympathizer, I am one. :-) We are legion.
I can respect that. Just be sure you put that on the form the next time you buy a gun from an FFL. Be sure to include that you renounce your citizenship in the USA and belong to the CSA.
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Old 02-15-2014, 23:41   #83
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"That on the first day of January, in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and sixty-three, all persons held as slaves within any State or designated part of a State, the people whereof shall then be in rebellion against the United States, shall be then, thenceforward, and forever free; and the Executive Government of the United States, including the military and naval authority thereof, will recognize and maintain the freedom of such persons, and will do no act or acts to repress such persons, or any of them, in any efforts they may make for their actual freedom."

I always found it interesting that Mr. Lincoln only freed the slaves in the south. As pointed out prior, why not ALL slaves. It was an effort to weaken the South.
You folks who repeat this simplistic observation display a truly sophomoric understanding of the history of your nation.

Here's WHY Lincoln only freed the slaves in the south...
The Emancipation Proclamation would have been an Unconstitutional exercise of executive power in the states not in rebellion. But as commander in chief, Lincoln clearly had the power to declare marshal law in territories in rebellion and deny Southerner's property which could be employed in "the cause" against the Federal government.

Any High School level American history course would have covered this.
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Old 02-15-2014, 23:47   #84
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The revered and famous governor of Texas, Sam Houston, said about secession:

"You may, after the sacrifice of countless millions of treasures and hundreds of thousands of precious lives, as a bare possibility, win Southern independence...but I doubt it."

The Confederacy should have listened to him.
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Old 02-15-2014, 23:47   #85
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I find this topic interesting as heck - always have.

1. Cultural Southerners downplay slavery's importance. According to various census tallies over the decades slavery was growing in terms of aggregate slave population until 1860.

2. Cultural Northerners and most liberals downplay the state's rights and unsustainable "Yankee" economy arguments. The facts are Lincoln and lots of others were flatly terrified that a large chunk of the south might well break off and form it's own country or confederation of nation states thus removing The NE US's ability to feed, clothe and fuel itself. For context The French seemed ready to help any breakaway new nation or similar.

3. Technology was within a decade or so of ending widespread slavery. I've never once read a decent counter argument to that claim. Slaves and slave keeping were very expensive propositions. Cotton gins etc. were very cheap by comparison.

4. I agree with Rabbi that had The South won the civil war, as an aside, a great case can be made that if Stonewall Jackson had not been killed the south would likely have won - he fought much like a terrorist and The Northern officer corps were more or less terrified of him and his rogues. Had the south won an economic bond would have sprang forth almost immediately. Trade; banking, law, heavy manufacturing etc. from The North - cotton, beef, sheep, oil etc. to from The South would have solidified a bond quickly.
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Old 02-15-2014, 23:50   #86
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Originally Posted by Big Bird View Post
You folks who repeat this simplistic observation display a truly sophomoric understanding of the history of your nation.

Here's WHY Lincoln only freed the slaves in the south...
The Emancipation Proclamation would have been an Unconstitutional exercise of executive power in the states not in rebellion. But as commander in chief, Lincoln clearly had the power to declare marshal law in territories in rebellion and deny Southerner's property which could be employed in "the cause" against the Federal government.

Any High School level American history course would have covered this.
As an aside, the "exempted" states all had county by county or similar arrangements in play to end slavery as well. Slavery wound down quickly in all the non-rebellion states.
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Old 02-15-2014, 23:51   #87
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After Gettysburg didn't Lincoln emancipate the slaves in the SOUTH, but left slavery intact in the border states?
No he did not. They were all free.
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Old 02-15-2014, 23:54   #88
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Of course the war was about slavery. No less a Confederate than Gen. Nathan B. Forrest said as much. The trick was that the Union convinced the northern populace that the war was not about slavery until the Emancipation Proclamation.


The South convinced men who didn't own slaves to fight for slavery. According to the 1860 U.S. census, fewer than 385,000 individuals (1.4% of White Americans in the country, or 4.8% of southern whites) owned one or more slaves.


Don't think for a minute that after the War many Confederate veterans weren't bitter about being mislead about the war. It was only in the 1890's that the "Lost Cause" BS took root in historical writing.
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Old 02-16-2014, 00:01   #89
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It appears that we have several people who are Confederate Sympathizers on this board. They believe Lincoln was wrong in keeping the nation together.



Isn't it unAmerican to be a Confederate Sympathizer?





For those born in the south, I mean if the Confederates were successful, you wouldn't be an American. If you were lucky, you would be a confederate. If you were unlucky, you could be Mexican or a German or....
They would all still be Americans.

The Confederate States of America were just as American as the United States of America.

Just like North Koreans are just as Korean as South Koreans, and not that long ago East Germans were just as German as West Germans.

Why don't we celebrate Lincoln's Birthday anymore?
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Old 02-16-2014, 00:01   #90
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Originally Posted by Detectorist View Post
The revered and famous governor of Texas, Sam Houston, said about secession:

"You may, after the sacrifice of countless millions of treasures and hundreds of thousands of precious lives, as a bare possibility, win Southern independence...but I doubt it."

The Confederacy should have listened to him.
Houston's stance vis a vis secession was complex.

1. He was a lifelong, more or less, slave owner.
2. As Texas had lost lots of great lives shaking the bonds of Mexico he was afraid that if Texas fought and won secession from The US that Texas would likely be weakened enough that MX might be able to re-take Texas.
3. Houston was very smart, my guess he wanted TX to remain on the sidelines and as the war wound down he and some others would have pressed to form an Ark-La-Tx demi-nation.
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Old 02-16-2014, 00:02   #91
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No he did not. They were all free.
Not precisely.
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Old 02-16-2014, 00:06   #92
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The Civil War was about slavery and states rights. They were entangled.

Southerners wishing for a victorious south is just wistful thinking.
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Old 02-16-2014, 00:14   #93
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I love these threads. They bring out all the Harry Turtledove nutcases. HH
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Old 02-16-2014, 00:18   #94
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But this half * stuff sucks. You either ARE or you are NOT an American. If you don't like how things turned out, you could decide to be a traitor to the country you were born into OR you can just leave.
How do you define being an American? Bending over and taking what the government forces you to? Stop being a doormat, and start acting like a man.
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Old 02-16-2014, 00:20   #95
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I love these threads. They bring out all the Harry Turtledove nutcases. HH
Sure. But they bring out a equal number of oversimplifiers sporting the northern view.
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Old 02-16-2014, 00:20   #96
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How do you define being an American? Bending over and taking what the government forces you to? Stop being a doormat, and start acting like a man.
OK that was funny.
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Old 02-16-2014, 00:24   #97
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Old 02-16-2014, 00:25   #98
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Sure. But they bring out a equal number of oversimplifiers sporting the northern view.
Fact can often be summed up in one sentence. HH
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Old 02-16-2014, 00:37   #99
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Fact can often be summed up in one sentence. HH

1. I'll think you'll agree with me that many on both sides of this argument are emotional and historically challenged.

2. If you are bashing me for "word-conjuring" as an old professor used to term it, I have a simple set of rules.
A. If I like a word and believe it will get my point across to a person I deem smart, I go with it.
B. Especially if spell-check let's it roll as is.
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Old 02-16-2014, 00:43   #100
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I understand the whole southern pride thing. I lived there.

However the entire culture they are pining for is long gone and even back then was only possible because of the institution of slavery.

They want to relive the myth of the south without acknowledging it was all based on slavery.
I respectfully disagree.

The culture I would like to see return is one where the States and the individuals are respected. Where you can take a breath without violating 14 federal laws. Where the feds do not use the commerce clause to justify governmental overreach.

It has nothing to do with plantations or slavery or mint juleps.
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