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Old 02-15-2014, 21:22   #61
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I am not a confederate sympathizer. However, "I get it." to a degree.

The first issue is, people have to realize that the issue is a lot larger than "Slavery." Even if that is the driving issue that makes anything "Confederate" a tainted issue.

People today are not advocating a return to plantations and slavery. There is so much more to it. It is an issue of liberty and community. The idea of states rights and communities generally built on *Christian" principles.

Again, I get it. I don't agree with all of it because I think even they don't understand liberty...because they are advocating their beliefs...or you can suck it...which is what they hate about what they think is suppressing them. (Some liberal, gay, whatever agenda....)

BTW, the Confederacy was successful. Just like Iceland is successful....they just couldn't win a war with a much better armed opponent. Loss in a war doesn't correlate to a successful system of government or not, it just mean you lost a war.


Let me pose a fairly rational question. What if Lincoln would not waged war? Slavery would have ended anyways. (not an excuse) it was a doomed institution. The theories as to what would have happened are never ending but one thought is the north would have collapsed under it liberal weight a lot sooner (as it has done in a lot of cases) without the south to buoy it in a lot of ways, the North and South might have reconciled on pretty peaceful/economic terms without the loss of so many people.
Yes the issue was a lot larger than slavery. Slavery was actually a tertiary issue. The civil war was fought over states rights. In many aspects the Confederacy was right. They were just overpowered by the norths industrial might.
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Old 02-15-2014, 21:23   #62
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Thats a great leap.


In all likelyhood, had the confederates won, they'd likely have re-joined the union at some point down the road, with the conditions of retaining their precious "states rights".
The conditions would have been that all states retained states' rights.

Do you think it's a coincidence that the monuments to Washington, Jefferson, etc. are stately and symbolic, while Lincoln's has him larger than life on a throne? He was America's Lenin.
Suppose a woman -- with plenty of personal faults herself, let that be stipulated -- desired to leave her husband: partly because he made a regular practice, in order to go out and get drunk, of stealing money she had earned herself by raising chickens or taking in laundry; and partly because he'd already demonstrated a proclivity for domestic violence the first time she'd complained about his stealing.

Now, when he stood in the doorway and beat her to a bloody pulp to keep her home, would we memorialize him as a hero? Or would we treat him like a dangerous lunatic who should be locked up, if for no other reason, then for trying to maintain the appearance of a relationship where there wasn't a relationship any more? What value, we would ask, does he find in continuing to possess her in an involuntary association, when her heart and mind had left him long ago?
Slavery was bad, though it had been largely resolved by the 1860's. Lincoln was fortunate to be able to use it belatedly as an issue for the War of Northern Aggression.

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Originally Posted by ken grant View Post
Trade with Europe was the reason for the Civil War.

The North had Industry, Europe had Industry so nothing to trade.

The South had farm and timber products which Europe wanted and the North was being starved out.
Actually, the North wanted to plunder the resources of the South, to their own benefit, and the South decided to exercise their legal right to leave the union.

Let's debate the issue... did the South have the legal right to leave the union? I guess there isn't much to debate there...
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Old 02-15-2014, 21:30   #63
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Old 02-15-2014, 21:31   #64
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Old 02-15-2014, 22:05   #65
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1. A "civil war" involves a group taking over the current government. Not seceding.

2. The south would still be Americans. That is a continent and the CSA included the word.

3. Federalization of the nation and quelling of States Rights is part of what a LOT of people here complain about.

I would not consider myself a Confederate Sympathizer but those who paint the whole thing as "slavery bad" are missing a lot about how things are run today that they don't like.
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Old 02-15-2014, 22:07   #66
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But this half * stuff sucks. You either ARE or you are NOT an American. If you don't like how things turned out, you could decide to be a traitor to the country you were born into OR you can just leave.
I reject the idea that if I dont think like you I am "not" American.

I reject the idea that if I want to change what I see are problems with this country as being a "traitor."

I reject the idea that I cant look back in history and say "these things worked."


....the founding fathers would agree, that is what they did. Never forget, this Country and its Constitution was a giant compromise, that took years, between people who did not all like each other....even knowing that, they gave us a mean to fight for change....not accept it and roll over, even if that is what we seem to be doing.
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Old 02-15-2014, 22:13   #67
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...and again, The narrative that Southern people who have either a romantic nostalgia for the "old South" or look at what actually was functional about a pre-civil war South, is somehow always about Slavery....is bullcrap.
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Old 02-15-2014, 22:13   #68
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I'm fixing to write out a big check to the Federal Government.

Hell, I'm still a slave.
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Old 02-15-2014, 22:35   #69
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Gore Vidal also claimed FDR knew about the planned attack on Pearl Harbor, that Truman ignored pleas by the Japanese to surrender so he could drop the A bomb to scare the Russians, and that George W Bush should have been impeached for war crimes. That pretty much sums up his "intellect".
Posted his viewpoint since he is a known Liberal.

His "intellect" is more than a few wild assertions.

You should look a little deeper.









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Old 02-15-2014, 22:38   #70
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There you go "I'm going to cry slavery for the sure PC victory" To do that, you have to ignore that union states had slavery during and even after the end of the civil war, while some confederates states had made slavery illegal on their own, before that - yet those slave states still stayed union and those anti-slave states still stayed confederate (Tennessee, for example).

But...but...how can that be, it was bad southern slave states vs. good northern anti-slave states, right?
After Gettysburg didn't Lincoln emancipate the slaves in the SOUTH, but left slavery intact in the border states?

Whats up with that, if people are claiming the war about slavery, it should have been all or nothing.
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Old 02-15-2014, 22:42   #71
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I reject the idea that if I dont think like you I am "not" American.

I reject the idea that if I want to change what I see are problems with this country as being a "traitor."

I reject the idea that I cant look back in history and say "these things worked."
I have no problem with people being different.
I have no problem with people wanting change AND doing something about it.

I just find it hypocritical to btch and moan about something that happened 150 years ago AND twist the facts. THEN to top it off, benefit from the thing they are complaining about.
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Old 02-15-2014, 22:44   #72
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I was raised in Ohio, schooled in Kentucky and worked in Georgia. Savannah is still feuding with Harleston because Savannah became an open city and Charleston did not.

Yes, the civil war could have and should have been avoided. But sides became entrenched and would not negotiate -a lesson that has been forgotten.
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Old 02-15-2014, 22:45   #73
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What if, it had turned out the other way? If the CSA was successful in becoming their own nation and stated that way. What would have been the long-term effect on world history?

Would they all be speaking Spanish right now? Would Germany or Japan, or perhaps Russia rule the world right now?
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Old 02-15-2014, 22:47   #74
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After Gettysburg didn't Lincoln emancipate the slaves in the SOUTH, but left slavery intact in the border states?

Whats up with that, if people are claiming the war about slavery, it should have been all or nothing.
Yes

No, If the documents of succession didn't explicitly mention slavery, then I would agree with you, but from the Souths prospective it was all about slavery.

This being said, if someone came after my property, I would have issue with it also.
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Old 02-15-2014, 22:48   #75
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All I know is I know a Yankee chick and she is ... well ... kinda weird

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Old 02-15-2014, 22:53   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RWBlue View Post
I have no problem with people being different.
I have no problem with people wanting change AND doing something about it.

I just find it hypocritical to btch and moan about something that happened 150 years ago AND twist the facts. THEN to top it off, benefit from the thing they are complaining about.
Are you a Christian? A Jew? ....any religion that is more than a hundred years old?

Do you, because of your religious beliefs, wish some things were different to be more inline with your beliefs?...even though you enjoy "America" as it is?

If not, fine...most people are in some way.

How about, how would you like to be able to order a tommy gun out of a Sears catalog for 79 bucks....that was 80 years ago...hell, it wasnt even 30 years ago you could go buy a brand new machine gun of your choice...for a few hundred bucks more than the semi auto version. Is someone a hypocrite because they

1. Talk about that a lot.
2. Advocate a return to those glorious days
3. Live in America were so few people are machine gunned down.

The other side of that is.

Just because I want to be able to buy new machine guns for a reasonable price....that doesnt mean I advocate for some absurd return to a time where "Machine guns were easy to get and our children lived in fear of being machine gunned down!!!!....."

Just like I can (or someone else) can wish for some of the functional aspects of the Old South, without wishing "And then I would have slaves to pick my crop!"
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Old 02-15-2014, 22:53   #77
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Lee surrendered. I didn't. Not a sympathizer, I am one. :-) We are legion.
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Old 02-15-2014, 22:56   #78
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All I know is I know a Yankee chick and she is ... well ... kinda weird

They're all....kinda weird.
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Old 02-15-2014, 22:56   #79
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Originally Posted by costanza187 View Post
What if, it had turned out the other way? If the CSA was successful in becoming their own nation and stated that way. What would have been the long-term effect on world history?

Would they all be speaking Spanish right now? Would Germany or Japan, or perhaps Russia rule the world right now?
I am of the firm belief that even without the civil war, the North and the South would have reconciled by 1900. Economics would probably have dictated it.

Who knows.
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Old 02-15-2014, 23:00   #80
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It appears that we have several people who are Confederate Sympathizers on this board. They believe Lincoln was wrong in keeping the nation together.



Isn't it unAmerican to be a Confederate Sympathizer?





For those born in the south, I mean if the Confederates were successful, you wouldn't be an American. If you were lucky, you would be a confederate. If you were unlucky, you could be Mexican or a German or....

America is a union of sovereign states (countries) in north America.

People were and are citizens of the state (country) first and to the larger union second.

Living today in 2014 is your loyalty to the United Nations or the the USA?

If an individual or state in the 1860s was supposed to be loyal to the larger union, then today in 2014 our loyalties should be to the United Nations.

The USA voluntarily joined the UN and retains the right to leave the UN and retains her sovereignty.

Likewise the individual states retain their own sovereignty and had/have as much right to leave the voluntary union called the united States of America as they did when they voluntarily chose to join the union.
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