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Old 02-16-2014, 14:04   #201
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OR....I want to live here speaking my language and keeping my culture, enjoy the liberties, education, welfare that you offer...I am here, I demand you give me citizenship.

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Old 02-16-2014, 14:48   #202
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Originally Posted by Michael Rye View Post
Interesting info in that post. Gotta admit, I never knew about southern regiments fighting for the Union.


If you ever have the chance, go to the Museum of the Confederacy in Richmond, VA. Check out the archives. The collection of soldier's letters, diaries, memoirs and newspapers is amazing. And enlightening.
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Old 02-16-2014, 14:50   #203
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Funny how those wanted a military separation from England in 1776 were 'good', and those who wanted a military separation from the North were 'bad' in 1861.
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Old 02-16-2014, 14:52   #204
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All the Confederate states had Home Guard units whose main purpose was to hunt down draft dodgers(yes, the South instituted the draft, well before the North) and deserters. Desertion was a constant problem for the south, even in the famed Stonewall Brigade, right from the very start of hostilities. There were also huge areas in the south that remained loyal to the federal government, ever hear of the Kingdom of Jones? Every Confederate state, with the exception of South Carolina, had whole regiments that fought for the union. I personally know 3 former members of the Sons of Confederate Veterans who, after learning about their family tree, had ancestors who fought for the union and not the Confederacy.


That everyone in the south was completely in favor of secession is a fallacy, though very few Confederate revisionists like to admit it.
And there were Confederate sympathizers in the North, quite a few in southern IL for example.
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Old 02-16-2014, 14:53   #205
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I was born in the south, and my ancestor was a Confederate soldier. If you want to tell me I should live my life with my head hung low in shame because of that, then you sir, can go straight to Hell.
I am a Yankee, but you are dead on there. IMHO part of this attitude to make the South look bad is from liberals attacking the most conservative, gun owning, and Christian area of the US.
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Old 02-16-2014, 14:55   #206
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If you ever have the chance, go to the Museum of the Confederacy in Richmond, VA. Check out the archives. The collection of soldier's letters, diaries, memoirs and newspapers is amazing. And enlightening.


Thanks. I guess that just falls under the category of things we never learned in school. I knew there were areas of the south where the abolitionist movement was strong. Greenville, SC which is about fifty miles up the road from me was a hotbed of the abolitionist movement. Southern regiments fighting for the Union was an eye opener, though!


We learn some neat things on GT sometimes.
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Old 02-16-2014, 14:57   #207
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Ah, what the heck...

Atlas, I think you're very wrong about slavery being doomed in the Confederacy. It was codified into their constitution: "No bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law denying or impairing the right of property in negro slaves shall be passed."

Ain't no way that peculiar institution is dying out in 10-15 years when it's enshrined (several times, actually) in the founding document.
And that Constitution could have been amended, just as the US one was many times.
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Old 02-16-2014, 15:00   #208
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Funny how those wanted a military separation from England in 1776 were 'good', and those who wanted a military separation from the North were 'bad' in 1861.

IIRC, the southern colonies weren't exactly keen on the idea of separating from the British. In fact, wasn't SC the last one to get on board with the revolution? I think it was.
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Old 02-16-2014, 15:01   #209
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There's a small, yet neat/informative Confederate museum downtown Greenville.

Looks like a house that was built 50 yrs ago.
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Old 02-16-2014, 15:09   #210
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There's a small, yet neat/informative Confederate museum downtown Greenville.

Looks like a house that was built 50 yrs ago.


I'll have to check that out. I am down in Greenwood, but Greenville is only an hour's drive. I need to get up there to see if I can find some powder somewhere. Greenwood has nada.
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Old 02-16-2014, 15:11   #211
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Old 02-16-2014, 15:18   #212
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Originally Posted by Michael Rye View Post
Interesting info in that post. Gotta admit, I never knew about southern regiments fighting for the Union.


There are all sorts of facts not taught in schools. More than a few Northerners fought for the south, and many southerners fought for the north. Stonewall Jackson's sister carried on what may be delicately described as intimate relationships with quite a few Union officers. Jefferson Davis was president of the Confederacy, and Jefferson C. Davis was a union general. On the retreat from Gettysburg upwards of 1500 free born blacks were kidnaped, taken south and sold into slavery. The letters from several Confederate officers talking about that are chilling, to say the least.


The south may not have had draft riots, but there were plenty of food riots, even early in the war. The myth of the barefoot, ragged, southern soldier was, for the most part, just that. Look at any period photos of Confederate dead and prisoners. They are all well dressed and have shoes. And those clothes and shoes were not always due to the generosity of Commissary Banks. Confederate states were often at odds with each other. Governor Joe Brown of Georgia refused to release 50,000 uniforms to soldiers of other states at a time when there was a need for those uniforms. Those same uniforms were used to clothe prison inmates in the early 1900's. Imagine what one of those Commutation Shell Jackets would be worth today.


When the Civil War started the Confederacy had no real postal service, no foundries, no real transport system, a very limited capacity to manufacture gun powder(and poor quality at that), no real weapons manufacturing plants, and less than 200 professional soldiers(by that I mean West Point graduates) tasked with building several armies. From the start the only consistent successful military operations were in Virginia. The North was able to gain control over large parts of the rest of the south. That was primarily because a very good general, RE Lee, was up against 2nd, 3rd, and 4th rate Federal generals. When faced with Meade, and then Grant, things changed. Lee knew by September of 1863, and probably earlier, that the war was lost. But he kept on fighting to preserve a sense of southern honor, causing the deaths and maiming of hundreds of thousands of men. I find it interesting there are those who blame Lincoln for those deaths.
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Old 02-16-2014, 15:36   #213
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You are correct...as far as Lincoln goes.

However, neither congress nor some of the northern states passed laws to end slavery, even after the democrats walked out and left them the freedom to pass anything they wanted. Congress' authority to end slavery would have been questionable at the time, since the U.S. Constitution protected slavery, but the slaves were only freed in Washington DC, Kansas, New Jersey, Delaware, West Virginia, when the 13th Amendment became law, after the war.
Listen...you really need to study this issue. You have a very narrow frame of reference that fits your world view. There is a MOUNTAIN of evidence that you can access that will reveal a very different and more complex background to this than just the issue of ending Southern slavery.

The issue was much more complex than you are making it out. The leadership in the North understood that the real solution to the problem with slavery ultimately lay with a UNIFIED Congress passing a Constitutional Amendment that EVERYONE adhered to post war. The last thing they wanted to do was pass a law by the Niorthern states making slavery illegal and when the Confederate States were brought back into the Union and have them claim it was forced on them without their consent or even challenge the Constitutionality of the law passed without a quorum or the necessary majorities. Everyone back then knew it required a political solution worked out by ALL the parties.

This was a very complex issue and not black and white any way you look at it. There were many inconsistencies with the North and the border states before the war when it came to slavery.

However, THE issue WAS ending slavery. The South left the Union because ultimately it lacked the political seats necessary to perpetuate the institution of slavery. With Lincoln's election in 1860 and the new Republican party it became increasingly clear that the political balance in the nation had shifted and that the institution of slavery was doomed ANYWHERE it existed.

Forget all the transcripts of speeches delivered by Southern agitators delivered in Southern State legislatures lobbying for secession and the primary cause of preserving slavery. In their own words the cause for the war wasn't state's rights or any other revisionist bullcrap. It was slavery.

If that doesn't sway you perhaps this might...

The are literally hundreds of sermons delivered by southern Baptist, Presbyterian and Anglican (Episcipalian) ministers before and during the war that not only emphatically say the cause of the war was slavery but that the institution of slavery was ordained by God! Grey Rider's tag line on his avatar--Deo Vindace (God will Vindicate) was a common them in the South during the war and it was specifically meant to uphold the notion that God approves of Slavery. (Again...read the sermons from the time)

If you doubt this then please explain the schism between Northern Baptists and Southern Baptists... Surely you don't think this division of the Baptist Convention resulted from States Rights or other such nonsense? The same divide happened in all the protestant religions of the day. No sir, Southerners believed and were told by their own clergy that God would vindicate their cause! And they are quite clear the cause is slavery which was ordained by God! There is no secret why the Roman church was so strongly vilified by southerners! The Pope and church stood against slavery!

So while its easy to point the finger at other folks and say...you had slaves too. The truth is the law was about to change and the South didn't like it and tried to leave.
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Old 02-16-2014, 15:36   #214
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Funny how those wanted a military separation from England in 1776 were 'good', and those who wanted a military separation from the North were 'bad' in 1861.
1789 those living in the United States and professing how they wanted to go back to British Rule were traitors.

1972 Jane Fonda was a....

2014 those living in the United States ......
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Old 02-16-2014, 15:43   #215
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Listen...you really need to study this issue. You have a very narrow frame of reference that fits your world view. There is a MOUNTAIN of evidence that you can access that will reveal a very different and more complex background to this than just the issue of ending Southern slavery.

The issue was much more complex than you are making it out. The leadership in the North understood that the real solution to the problem with slavery ultimately lay with a UNIFIED Congress passing a Constitutional Amendment that EVERYONE adhered to post war. The last thing they wanted to do was pass a law by the Niorthern states making slavery illegal and when the Confederate States were brought back into the Union and have them claim it was forced on them without their consent or even challenge the Constitutionality of the law passed without a quorum or the necessary majorities. Everyone back then knew it required a political solution worked out by ALL the parties.

This was a very complex issue and not black and white any way you look at it. There were many inconsistencies with the North and the border states before the war when it came to slavery.

However, THE issue WAS ending slavery. The South left the Union because ultimately it lacked the political seats necessary to perpetuate the institution of slavery. With Lincoln's election in 1860 and the new Republican party it became increasingly clear that the political balance in the nation had shifted and that the institution of slavery was doomed ANYWHERE it existed.

Forget all the transcripts of speeches delivered by Southern agitators delivered in Southern State legislatures lobbying for secession and the primary cause of preserving slavery. In their own words the cause for the war wasn't state's rights or any other revisionist bullcrap. It was slavery.

If that doesn't sway you perhaps this might...

The are literally hundreds of sermons delivered by southern Baptist, Presbyterian and Anglican (Episcipalian) ministers before and during the war that not only emphatically say the cause of the war was slavery but that the institution of slavery was ordained by God! Grey Rider's tag line on his avatar--Deo Vindace (God will Vindicate) was a common them in the South during the war and it was specifically meant to uphold the notion that God approves of Slavery. (Again...read the sermons from the time)

If you doubt this then please explain the schism between Northern Baptists and Southern Baptists... Surely you don't think this division of the Baptist Convention resulted from States Rights or other such nonsense? The same divide happened in all the protestant religions of the day. No sir, Southerners believed and were told by their own clergy that God would vindicate their cause! And they are quite clear the cause is slavery which was ordained by God! There is no secret why the Roman church was so strongly vilified by southerners! The Pope and church stood against slavery!

So while its easy to point the finger at other folks and say...you had slaves too. The truth is the law was about to change and the South didn't like it and tried to leave.
The South left because slavery was still economically necessary. The war was fought, not to end slavery, but to prevent the south from leaving.

The war was fought over whether or not states could leave the union. The fact that slavery was the reason they wanted to leave is a secondary issue. It was a war over states rights and whether or not the union was a blood pact for all time.
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Old 02-16-2014, 15:51   #216
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Yes, which is why being city boys none of them could shoot straight. It is not merely coincidence they fell out of proportion to their numbers to southern rifleman.

Not all were inline line with the aims of the war. I recall reading of draft riots in northern cities. Not so much down south..
A significant portion of the Northern troops came from backwater or "western" states. Most of them were farmboys, as familiar with hunting and firearms as any southerner.
By the end of the War, old men were being drafted into the Confederate Army for guard and rear area duties to "free up" younger men for the front lines. Lots of those younger men then decided to up and walk away from the Confederate Army and an obviously losing proposition.

Desertion was a major problem with the Confederate Army later in the War.
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Old 02-16-2014, 15:56   #217
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All the Confederate states had Home Guard units whose main purpose was to hunt down draft dodgers(yes, the South instituted the draft, well before the North) and deserters. Desertion was a constant problem for the south, even in the famed Stonewall Brigade, right from the very start of hostilities. There were also huge areas in the south that remained loyal to the federal government, ever hear of the Kingdom of Jones? Every Confederate state, with the exception of South Carolina, had whole regiments that fought for the union. I personally know 3 former members of the Sons of Confederate Veterans who, after learning about their family tree, had ancestors who fought for the union and not the Confederacy.

That everyone in the south was completely in favor of secession is a fallacy, though very few Confederate revisionists like to admit it.
This is all news to me.

My Aunt had an ominous saying, "This is my country, right or wrong."
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Old 02-16-2014, 16:40   #218
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What I don't understand is why do the Confederate sympathizers on here think they would have been better off under a government which promulgated the subjugation and slavery of an entire race of people?

Is that the best way to respect human rights?
You mean the United States of America?

You mean President Lincoln who declared the slaves in the Confederacy to be free while keeping in slavery the slaves in the northern States of the United States.

You mean the Northern States of the Union who imported slaves? (The Confederacy never did, and southern states had not done so for many many decades while Northern states continued to...)

Again slavery was they driver, but not the issue of the war.

Lincoln himself said the war was not about slavery but about states rights vs federalist rights.
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Old 02-16-2014, 16:48   #219
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It really was about states' rights, and the issue of a strong federal government vs. a looser confederation of states. Slavery was the catalyst without which there likely would not have been war. The fact remains, though, that southerners tended to believe they were Virginians or Georgians first, and Americans second. Many were really fighting for that and not slavery.

Even today, most southerners still believe the federal government needs to leave the states alone. Is that un-American? No, not at all. In fact, folks around here tend to be much more likely to be proudly and unabashedly patriotic and very demonstrative about their love for America.


Excellent post... but northerners also saw themselves as citizens of their state first and the nation second.

For example Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain fought for Maine first and the Union second, and lead the 20th Maine Regiment.
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Old 02-16-2014, 16:56   #220
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I was born in America. I'm an American.


I personally don't care for the use of "hyphenated Americans" in general, but use it to clarify when I'm discussing the cultures that existed here before Europeans arrived. I'm fascinated by and study the "native-Americans.


Being united makes America strong. I'm against using a hyphenated title form some arbitrary time period or race as a matter of being divisive. Aren't we all "Garden of Eden-Americans?"
There is no such political entity as "America".

There are 50 sovereign countries (49 of them located on the continent of north america) which have voluntarily joined together in a union for purposes of a single currency, and unified negotiations (and defense) with other countries that are not a part of our particular association of countries.
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