GlockTalk.com
Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.

 
  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-16-2014, 10:09   #41
Cavalry Doc
MAJ (USA Ret.)
 
Cavalry Doc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Republic of Texas
Posts: 41,911


The point is, you just never know for sure until you are looking back on a situation, sometimes several years later. Be prepared to make those decisions on the fly.

Generally speaking, pistol vs. long gun = long gun wins.

You will get to choose who your first priority to protect is.

You will get to choose whether or not to engage who you think the bad guy is, and hopefully it won't be an off duty or undercover police officer. Trust me, when rolling up on a firefight in progress, even when people are wearing uniforms, it can be difficult to pick out the good guys and bad guys when they are firing from cover.

I don't think there is one answer that is right in all situations. Be prepared to make complex decisions when your brain is running on adrenalin. 12 normal, non-gun owning people may have several hours or even days to consider each and every split second decision you made, while taking rest room and meal breaks, and getting paid a per-diem to stay in a nice hotel. If you find yourself in that predicament, what those people decide will have a pretty large impact on you.



Stay safe out there.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.
--Gunhaver
Don't let the guys quoted above contact your reps more than you.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.

Last edited by Cavalry Doc; 02-16-2014 at 10:10..
Cavalry Doc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2014, 10:13   #42
happyguy
Na Ben Don Chat
 
happyguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Indiana
Posts: 14,852
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cavalry Doc View Post

Generally speaking, pistol vs. long gun = long gun wins.



Stay safe out there.
Not when you shoot them in the back.

Stay safe yourself.

Regards,
Happyguy
__________________
"I refuse to tip-toe through life only to arrive at death safely."

"Nobody should ever run a race where they are lapped by the sun."

Last edited by happyguy; 02-16-2014 at 10:14..
happyguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2014, 11:33   #43
Cavalry Doc
MAJ (USA Ret.)
 
Cavalry Doc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Republic of Texas
Posts: 41,911


Quote:
Originally Posted by happyguy View Post
Not when you shoot them in the back.

Stay safe yourself.

Regards,
Happyguy
Ok. But there is a reason most deer hunter's don't use 9mm.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.
--Gunhaver
Don't let the guys quoted above contact your reps more than you.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.
Cavalry Doc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2014, 11:58   #44
fnfalman
Chicks Dig It
 
fnfalman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: California & New Mexico, US
Posts: 56,180


I would only save hot chicks. The rest should have been armed themselves.
__________________
Can you dig it?
fnfalman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2014, 11:59   #45
fnfalman
Chicks Dig It
 
fnfalman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: California & New Mexico, US
Posts: 56,180


Quote:
Originally Posted by happyguy View Post
Not when you shoot them in the back.

Stay safe yourself.

Regards,
Happyguy
Make sure that you shoot them in the back of the head. They might have bulletproof vests on.
__________________
Can you dig it?
fnfalman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2014, 15:44   #46
Steve83
Bronco guru
 
Steve83's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Memphis, TN, 38135, USA, Earth
Posts: 246
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cavalry Doc View Post
It looks like one of the most justified shootings in America, where the shooter saved the life of a police officer. He was not treated very well at all.

http://www.theshootist.net/2009/01/o...-perry_12.html

Be careful, "no good deed goes unpunished" is an axiom for a reason.
I don't see in that article where he was treated badly, or punished in any way. Just a pending lawsuit in '09, which was most likely thrown out for aggravated stupidity (consortium with your own son is illegal, even in Louisiana).

One point that article fails to mention is that, in LA, if a uniformed LEO asks for your help, you can not be sued for the actions he asks you to take. But it can be ignored by courts, just like the law that said George Zimmerman couldn't be charged for self defense.
__________________
G21g4 (+AA22LR kit) LaserLyte ClipDraw OB-21SH
Taurus 94, Marlin 70P, Marlin 336, Win.140
Walk softly & carry a
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.
Steve83 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2014, 19:30   #47
Cavalry Doc
MAJ (USA Ret.)
 
Cavalry Doc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Republic of Texas
Posts: 41,911


Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve83 View Post
I don't see in that article where he was treated badly, or punished in any way. Just a pending lawsuit in '09, which was most likely thrown out for aggravated stupidity (consortium with your own son is illegal, even in Louisiana).

One point that article fails to mention is that, in LA, if a uniformed LEO asks for your help, you can not be sued for the actions he asks you to take. But it can be ignored by courts, just like the law that said George Zimmerman couldn't be charged for self defense.
The story I got from the article was that the police let him hang out there on his own, and he had to pay for his own civil defense, even though he saved an officer that was pleading for help.

I think what he did was very justifiable. I don't think that doing the reasonable thing always gets the treatment it deserves.

The fact that we don't know what the outcome of the civil suit was, probably means that there is a non-disclosure agreement out there somewhere. If he got away free and clear, without any legal expenses, it would have been published.

"No good deed goes unpunished"
is an axiom for a reason. I'm not saying don't get involved, I'm just pointing out that you may not get so much as a pat on the back, and might get a legal bill for tens of thousands of dollars for your kindness.


All that being said, if I thought I could help someone, I probably would.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.
--Gunhaver
Don't let the guys quoted above contact your reps more than you.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.
Cavalry Doc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2014, 20:12   #48
SCmasterblaster
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Hartford, Vermont
Posts: 16,020
Quote:
Originally Posted by thetoastmaster View Post
I have thought long and hard on this topic. I've long stated here on GT that I am most emphatically not a sheepdog. I've had to defend that position here and on some other internet fora. There are a few reasons for my decision. This video sums up many of them. I am also not anxious to "jump into another man's shoes" when I know that I won't receive any protection, indemnity, or compensation from the people that I'd be saving. State actors have qualified immunity that protects them from a degree of liability. Non-State actors have nothing but "reasonable man" doctrine (which, in my opinion, becomes less reasonable every day). Similarly, who will take care of my wife and children should I die in a violent altercation? Will the people I might have saved take up a collection to start annuities so my kids can go to college, like they do for cops killed in shootouts? No, they won't. No one will care.

I've never been a fan of Grossman. To me his writing always smacked of elitism. "Let US protect you, citizen. We know you haven't the capacity to protect yourself". That kind of attitude breeds dependence; and to me that's not what America's about. We're for individuality, not for a modern-day caste system, as Grossman seems to suggest.

Finally, let me give my impression of Grossman's analogy: Sheep and sheepdogs both fleece the sheep. It doesn't matter which one does it, the sheep get shorn. Well screw that. I am not about getting fleeced. I'd rather we adopt Greg Hamilton's take on this:
Well said, brother.
__________________
Gun Ownership Offers Freedom in Many Dimensions
SCmasterblaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2014, 21:46   #49
thetoastmaster
NOT a sheepdog!
 
thetoastmaster's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: One Nation, Under Surveillance
Posts: 5,274
Send a message via ICQ to thetoastmaster Send a message via AIM to thetoastmaster
Quote:
Originally Posted by SCmasterblaster View Post
Well said, brother.
Thanks. It's just the raving of a madman, mind.
__________________
This is the law:
There is no possible victory in defense,
The sword is more important than the shield,
And skill is more important than either,
The final weapon is the brain.
All else is supplemental.

- John Steinbeck

2+2≠4!
thetoastmaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2014, 01:20   #50
Steve83
Bronco guru
 
Steve83's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Memphis, TN, 38135, USA, Earth
Posts: 246
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cavalry Doc View Post
The story I got from the article was that the police let him hang out there on his own, and he had to pay for his own civil defense...
Of course he would pay for his own civil defense, IF he got sued. Why would anyone else have to pay for it; least of all, the police?

But it doesn't say the suit went forward - just that it had been filed. There are at least 3 legal reasons to throw it out.
__________________
G21g4 (+AA22LR kit) LaserLyte ClipDraw OB-21SH
Taurus 94, Marlin 70P, Marlin 336, Win.140
Walk softly & carry a
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.
Steve83 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2014, 05:30   #51
Cavalry Doc
MAJ (USA Ret.)
 
Cavalry Doc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Republic of Texas
Posts: 41,911


Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve83 View Post
Of course he would pay for his own civil defense, IF he got sued. Why would anyone else have to pay for it; least of all, the police?

But it doesn't say the suit went forward - just that it had been filed. There are at least 3 legal reasons to throw it out.
The NAACP got involved and the miscreant motorist was presented as a fine upstanding local businessman that was turning his life around.

Quote:
“We are outraged in the African-American community that a traffic violation could escalate to the killing of a young businessman,” Kwame Asanté, president of the local chapter of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, said Tuesday.

“The actions of an off-duty officer, a trained professional, to allow a traffic stop, where his life was not initially threatened, to become a situation where a young man loses his life in a physical altercation opens the Baton Rouge Police Department to many questions, that the community wants answers to,” Asanté said.

Sorta typical. The point is, the story is not over with the last shot fired. It's going to be at least a major hassle, maybe worse.

The guy did the right thing in my opinion. What happened after wasn't right in my opinion.

The point is, don't go looking for someone to shoot, in cases slight less clear with fewer witnesses, it can get a lot worse. Last I heard, George Zimmerman was homeless and broke. It doesn't always end well, even if what you do is legally justified.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.
--Gunhaver
Don't let the guys quoted above contact your reps more than you.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.
Cavalry Doc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2014, 08:32   #52
thetoastmaster
NOT a sheepdog!
 
thetoastmaster's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: One Nation, Under Surveillance
Posts: 5,274
Send a message via ICQ to thetoastmaster Send a message via AIM to thetoastmaster
Even if you win, you lose. It's a hard fact of life.

I'd take that risk for my family; but I am not taking it for a stranger. Who's going to feed my kids if I'm caught up in a lawsuit? Do you have a professional license? Do you have a business reputation? All of these could be on the line in a high-profile case like this one.

Regarding paying for this man's defense, considering that he saved this police officer's life, I would expect a little help from the officer's friends and family. Do they have to help? No, they get to help. This man exercised charity in saving the officer's life. A little charity in return isn't too much to ask.
__________________
This is the law:
There is no possible victory in defense,
The sword is more important than the shield,
And skill is more important than either,
The final weapon is the brain.
All else is supplemental.

- John Steinbeck

2+2≠4!
thetoastmaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2014, 09:11   #53
Cavalry Doc
MAJ (USA Ret.)
 
Cavalry Doc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Republic of Texas
Posts: 41,911


Quote:
Originally Posted by thetoastmaster View Post
Even if you win, you lose. It's a hard fact of life.

I'd take that risk for my family; but I am not taking it for a stranger. Who's going to feed my kids if I'm caught up in a lawsuit? Do you have a professional license? Do you have a business reputation? All of these could be on the line in a high-profile case like this one.

Regarding paying for this man's defense, considering that he saved this police officer's life, I would expect a little help from the officer's friends and family. Do they have to help? No, they get to help. This man exercised charity in saving the officer's life. A little charity in return isn't too much to ask.
The locals did hold firm in not having a citizens review panel, but as far as I can tell, he didn't get any other help. You'd think the F.O.P., a local union or some other pro LEO group would help a bit. If the event is less witnessed, or less clear cut, it may not go as well as it did for him.

I won't even say that I would not help a stranger, but it will be with the knowledge that I may face some hard times for helping out. That will be factored into the decision.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.
--Gunhaver
Don't let the guys quoted above contact your reps more than you.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.

Last edited by Cavalry Doc; 02-19-2014 at 09:16..
Cavalry Doc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2014, 15:22   #54
deputy1199
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 149
Law enforcement officers have a duty to take police action in such situations. That is the "protect" part of "to protect and to serve". Civilian CCW holders have no such duty or obligation to protect the public. They may choose to do so; but they do not have any of the legal authority or protection afforded to law enforcement officers, and that might adversely affect their position in any subsequent legal proceedings. Now that I am retired and I am just a civilian with a CCW I fully support Deepstare's cogent analysis. I now carry daily for self defense and defense of family and friends who are in my presences.
deputy1199 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2014, 03:03   #55
NEOH212
Diesel Girl
 
NEOH212's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: North East Ohio
Posts: 9,087
Other people are not my responsibility and I'm not putting my ass on the line for anyone period. I wouldn't expect anyone to put theirs on the line for me

That's why I took the necessary steps to protect and defend myself.

Call me whatever you want. What you won't call me is inmate, sued, broke, or sheepdog.



That's just the way it is and I'm not sorry for it.

__________________
[B]When you finish speaking, don't forget to wipe.[/B]
NEOH212 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2014, 08:25   #56
Sharkey
Senior Member
 
Sharkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: DFW, TX
Posts: 3,896
Quote:
Originally Posted by NEOH212 View Post
Other people are not my responsibility and I'm not putting my ass on the line for anyone period. I wouldn't expect anyone to put theirs on the line for me

That's why I took the necessary steps to protect and defend myself.

Call me whatever you want. What you won't call me is inmate, sued, broke, or sheepdog.



That's just the way it is and I'm not sorry for it.

You don't have to put your ass on the line for anyone. We all make a choice on what we are willing to do but it's foolish to think you won't be called an inmate, sued, or broke if you somehow have to defend yourself of your family because you very well could be. All you've done is lowered the risk by limiting who you are willing to protect. You can be guaranteed to not be any of those things if you just surrender to the criminal element when they make their demands.

That is just the way it is as you say.
__________________
There are no saints in the animal kingdom, only breakfast and dinner.
Sharkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2014, 10:45   #57
Steve83
Bronco guru
 
Steve83's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Memphis, TN, 38135, USA, Earth
Posts: 246
Quote:
Originally Posted by NEOH212 View Post
I wouldn't expect anyone to put theirs on the line for me
Despite your (lack of) expectations or awareness, there are people who volunteer their lives for their neighbors & fellow citizens every day. Firefighters, national guards, soldiers...
__________________
G21g4 (+AA22LR kit) LaserLyte ClipDraw OB-21SH
Taurus 94, Marlin 70P, Marlin 336, Win.140
Walk softly & carry a
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.
Steve83 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2014, 11:01   #58
happyguy
Na Ben Don Chat
 
happyguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Indiana
Posts: 14,852
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve83 View Post
Despite your (lack of) expectations or awareness, there are people who volunteer their lives for their neighbors & fellow citizens every day. Firefighters, national guards, soldiers...
Yet her decision is perfectly reasonable.

The government does not offer her the protections it does those professions you mention.

Regards,
Happyguy
__________________
"I refuse to tip-toe through life only to arrive at death safely."

"Nobody should ever run a race where they are lapped by the sun."

Last edited by happyguy; 02-21-2014 at 11:04..
happyguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2014, 11:43   #59
Steve83
Bronco guru
 
Steve83's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Memphis, TN, 38135, USA, Earth
Posts: 246
I wasn't saying she has to become one of them, or pretend to be - just that they exist, even though she doesn't expect them to.
__________________
G21g4 (+AA22LR kit) LaserLyte ClipDraw OB-21SH
Taurus 94, Marlin 70P, Marlin 336, Win.140
Walk softly & carry a
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.
Steve83 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2014, 11:46   #60
Southswede
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 832
Quote:
Originally Posted by NEOH212 View Post
Other people are not my responsibility and I'm not putting my ass on the line for anyone period. I wouldn't expect anyone to put theirs on the line for me

That's why I took the necessary steps to protect and defend myself.

Call me whatever you want. What you won't call me is inmate, sued, broke, or sheepdog.



That's just the way it is and I'm not sorry for it.


People have different strengths and weaknesses. It is good to know our limitations. In life we all have to live with our decisions. We all have to look in the mirror. Why there are even some of us who would jump into a swimming poor to save a child from drowning-even jumping into the deep end!!! We wouldn't even worry about the home owner suing us or anything......
Southswede is offline   Reply With Quote

 
  
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:35.




Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 976
266 Members
710 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,244
Nov 11, 2013 at 16:42