GlockTalk.com
Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-12-2014, 17:16   #1
deepstare
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 74
Another take on Sheepdogs

I posted this earlier in a rather heated thread but I found that it's resonated with other members and I felt like putting it up.


Now, other well known bloggers such as nutnfancy take an entirely different tack on this subject, which, while I must say is commendable, is again probably not realistic.
deepstare is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2014, 20:20   #2
drewcog
Senior Member
 
drewcog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 329
Sounds like a very reasonable and prudent approach to CCW. What would the counter-argument be?
__________________
"Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one's life for one's friends." -John 15:13
drewcog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2014, 20:27   #3
xmanhockey7
Senior Member
 
xmanhockey7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Kalamazoo, Michigan
Posts: 1,318
Quote:
Originally Posted by drewcog View Post
Sounds like a very reasonable and prudent approach to CCW. What would the counter-argument be?


__________________
My current avatar is the logo for my group Young Guns of Michigan. Check us out on Facebook!

Last edited by xmanhockey7; 02-12-2014 at 20:31..
xmanhockey7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2014, 20:31   #4
drewcog
Senior Member
 
drewcog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 329
X-man: Thanks for the videos. At 37 minutes, I'll have to watch tomorrow. Thanks again.
__________________
"Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one's life for one's friends." -John 15:13
drewcog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2014, 20:35   #5
xmanhockey7
Senior Member
 
xmanhockey7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Kalamazoo, Michigan
Posts: 1,318
Quote:
Originally Posted by drewcog View Post
X-man: Thanks for the videos. At 37 minutes, I'll have to watch tomorrow. Thanks again.
No problem. Nutnfancy makes good videos. I don't agree with everything he says in his videos, but they're still good quality.
__________________
My current avatar is the logo for my group Young Guns of Michigan. Check us out on Facebook!
xmanhockey7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2014, 20:52   #6
deepstare
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by xmanhockey7 View Post
No problem. Nutnfancy makes good videos. I don't agree with everything he says in his videos, but they're still good quality.
I don't agree with most of what he says but that doesn't mean I don't respect his dedication to trying to protect our 2nd amendment rights.

I always find some useful bit of info in his gear reviews.

Although, his video about taking a G20 into bear country was not only foolish and naive but downright dangerous considering how many people take his opinion as gospel.
deepstare is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2014, 21:05   #7
deepstare
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 74
Lol, well I shoulda expected Yeager to pop up.

Well, next time I'm out walking with my 6 year old son, I'll just leave him right there when I hear gunfire and run straight into the action.

Is it just me or did he seem like he was tweaking?

Last edited by deepstare; 02-12-2014 at 21:07..
deepstare is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2014, 23:41   #8
ChiefWPD
Senior Member
 
ChiefWPD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Wellfleet MA
Posts: 2,923
Very well thought out video by the "I'm not a sheepdog" speaker.
__________________
Chief WPD
ChiefWPD is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2014, 23:52   #9
steve1988
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Ft. Meade, MD
Posts: 1,114
I am not a cop. I am not Rambo. I am a POG who occasionally is legally allowed to carry a handgun (MD is run by communists). I will look after my family first, then a select group of friends, then myself, then others.
__________________
Thomas Paine: "...arms...discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. ...Horrid mischief would ensue were (the law-abiding) deprived the use of them."
steve1988 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2014, 00:10   #10
Angry Fist
Lifetime Membership
The Original®
 
Angry Fist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 24,353
No, God, I am not my brother's keeper. Now go make me a sammich.

- Cain
__________________
I want rustlers, cut throats, murderers, bounty hunters, desperados, mugs, pugs, thugs, nitwits, halfwits, dimwits, vipers, snipers, con men, Indian agents, Mexican bandits, muggers, buggerers, bushwhackers, hornswogglers, horse thieves, bull dykes, train robbers, bank robbers, ass-kickers, s**t-kickers, Methodists, and the GTDS.
Angry Fist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2014, 05:25   #11
drewcog
Senior Member
 
drewcog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 329
The non-sheepdog guy clearly values sacrifice and service to his fellow man, as he served our country faithfully in the military. I think his approach to CCW is wise and rational and does not mean he is heartless towards others in their times of need. I have no doubt if he was confronted with a violent scenario that he would do what he could to protect himself and those immediately around him. I think his point is he is not going to enter a shooting scene to assist that does not present itself in his immediate vicinity. An example would be a mall shooting. The sheepdog concept seems to advocate the average armed citizen going towards the scene, even when its not in their immediate vicinity. And the non-sheepdog approach would be to usher your family to safety and not go towards the scene. I would take the latter approach primarily because while I want to help my fellow man, I am also called to protect my family. And I also imagine to the responding officers that a shooting scene now complicated by multiple non-uniformed citizen "sheepdogs" would extremely dangerous and confusing to all involved.
__________________
"Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one's life for one's friends." -John 15:13
drewcog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2014, 05:45   #12
happyguy
Na Ben Don Chat
 
happyguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Indiana
Posts: 14,223
Without even watching the video's I gotta go with the bald guy.

Bald guys are badasses.

Regards,
Happyguy
__________________
"Success isn't a result of spontaneous combustion. You have to set yourself on fire." - Arnold H. Glasgow

Last edited by happyguy; 02-13-2014 at 05:49..
happyguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2014, 08:07   #13
eaglefrq
NRA Member
 
eaglefrq's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 1,057
James Yeager calling someone a coward?!? Pot meet Kettle.
__________________
You are free to choose, but you are not free from the consequence of your choice.
eaglefrq is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2014, 08:17   #14
happyguy
Na Ben Don Chat
 
happyguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Indiana
Posts: 14,223
Since I live in a shall issue State I decided a while back that I am willing to defend people who through no fault of their own are unable to. That would be children, the disabled, and the elderly.

Grown adults who decide to be willing victims are on their own.

I am comfortable with that decision and don't need to watch a video to confirm it.

Regards,
Happyguy
__________________
"Success isn't a result of spontaneous combustion. You have to set yourself on fire." - Arnold H. Glasgow

Last edited by happyguy; 02-13-2014 at 08:18..
happyguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2014, 16:19   #15
thetoastmaster
NOT a sheepdog!
 
thetoastmaster's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: One Nation, Under Surveillance
Posts: 5,165
Send a message via ICQ to thetoastmaster Send a message via AIM to thetoastmaster
Proudly NOT a sheepdog

I have thought long and hard on this topic. I've long stated here on GT that I am most emphatically not a sheepdog. I've had to defend that position here and on some other internet fora. There are a few reasons for my decision. This video sums up many of them. I am also not anxious to "jump into another man's shoes" when I know that I won't receive any protection, indemnity, or compensation from the people that I'd be saving. State actors have qualified immunity that protects them from a degree of liability. Non-State actors have nothing but "reasonable man" doctrine (which, in my opinion, becomes less reasonable every day). Similarly, who will take care of my wife and children should I die in a violent altercation? Will the people I might have saved take up a collection to start annuities so my kids can go to college, like they do for cops killed in shootouts? No, they won't. No one will care.

I've never been a fan of Grossman. To me his writing always smacked of elitism. "Let US protect you, citizen. We know you haven't the capacity to protect yourself". That kind of attitude breeds dependence; and to me that's not what America's about. We're for individuality, not for a modern-day caste system, as Grossman seems to suggest.

Finally, let me give my impression of Grossman's analogy: Sheep and sheepdogs both fleece the sheep. It doesn't matter which one does it, the sheep get shorn. Well screw that. I am not about getting fleeced. I'd rather we adopt Greg Hamilton's take on this:

Quote:
Sheep can be controlled by the sheepdog for the same reason they fear the wolf - they are both predators. The same relationships hold with the general population, the police, and the criminals. Most people are sheep, but you don't have to be. If you have the skills and attitude of a predator the criminals will leave you alone- because they will recognize you as a predator and there is easier game available.
__________________
This is the law:
There is no possible victory in defense,
The sword is more important than the shield,
And skill is more important than either,
The final weapon is the brain.
All else is supplemental.

- John Steinbeck

2+2≠4!
thetoastmaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2014, 20:02   #16
deepstare
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 74
This is a rather simplistic breakdown but from a legal stand point it's relevant.

#8 and #4 seems rather obvious

http://lawofselfdefense.com/wp-conte...Themselves.pdf

Last edited by deepstare; 02-13-2014 at 20:02..
deepstare is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2014, 20:26   #17
FireForged
Millenium #3936
 
FireForged's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Rebel South
Posts: 4,472
I will not chase a purse snatcher, stand between (2) fighting men or investigate odd happenings in dark alleys.. I carry a gun to protect myself and my family, not to be anyone's sentinel or security force.

I would gladly leap in front of a moving bus to save a child in the street but pulling a weapon in pubic to involve myself in someone elses troubles is not something I plan to do.

Society has created an environment where no matter if I am right and well intentioned, gun play in public can cost me my livelihood. I am willing to accept that circumstance if defending myself or my family but I am not so willing to accept it for someone who I "think" is victim involved in a situation that I "think" I understand and "seems" to have placed them in peril and where I "may" have identified the badguy.
__________________
"I believe that the right of the citizen to keep and bear arms must not be infringed if liberty in America is to survive." - Ronald Reagan

Last edited by FireForged; 02-13-2014 at 20:27..
FireForged is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2014, 20:33   #18
xmanhockey7
Senior Member
 
xmanhockey7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Kalamazoo, Michigan
Posts: 1,318
Quote:
Originally Posted by deepstare View Post
This is a rather simplistic breakdown but from a legal stand point it's relevant.

#8 and #4 seems rather obvious

http://lawofselfdefense.com/wp-conte...Themselves.pdf
Seemed good, but this part of number 1 I don't totally agree with:
Quote:
1. What weapons you're allowed to have and where. Even if youhave a conceal permit you may not carry just any gun. If you're unsure what your state allows you to have on you to protect yourself, your local law enforcement is a great place to start.
While there are many LEO's who know the laws well there are also many who don't. While they not be a horrible place to start, I think looking up statues and a site like handgunlaw.us is far better.
__________________
My current avatar is the logo for my group Young Guns of Michigan. Check us out on Facebook!
xmanhockey7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2014, 20:43   #19
deepstare
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by xmanhockey7 View Post
Seemed good, but this part of number 1 I don't totally agree with:

While there are many LEO's who know the laws well there are also many who don't. While they not be a horrible place to start, I think looking up statues and a site like handgunlaw.us is far better.
Yes, I agree it's always better to look at multiple sources for keeping up to date on ccw rights (how many of us have stopped in to speak to our local sheriffs)?

But consider the source...


Andrew F. Branca, Esq., is the foremost expert in U.S. self defense law across all 50 states, whose expertise has been used by the the Wall Street Journal, the Chicago Tribune, NPR, numerous other media organizations, as well as many private, state and federal agencies. He is a Massachusetts lawyer, Life Member of the National Rifle Association (NRA), and Adjunct Instructor on the Law of Self Defense at the SigSauer Academy in Epping, NH. He regularly lectures and speaks throughout the country on how to protect yourself against both an attack and the legal machine after.

Andrew is a multi-division Master-class competitor in IDPA and an NRA-certified firearms instructor. He holds or has held concealed carry permits for Massachusetts, Connecticut, Rhode Island, New Hampshire, Maine, Pennsylvania, Florida, Utah, Virginia, and other states.
deepstare is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2014, 20:57   #20
John Biltz
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 997
I've always thought the sheepdog and sheep concept to be pretty egotistical for civilians. When I was in the military I was a sheepdog. Cops are sheepdogs. Look at the job descriptions and yep there you are. I think most people who think they are sheepdogs are like some dog that starts running around a herd of sheep and has pretensions until the herd's sheepdog shows up and gets chased away. And that is the reality, there are sheep, wolves, sheepdogs and dogs and not every dog is a sheepdog. And not every dog even has any idea what it is to be a sheepdog. So when someone who has never been a cop or a soldier claims to be a sheepdog...
__________________
A little government and a little luck are necessary in life; but only a fool trusts either of them.
John Biltz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2014, 09:16   #21
Bren
NRA Life Member
 
Bren's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 33,403
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Biltz View Post
I've always thought the sheepdog and sheep concept to be pretty egotistical for civilians. When I was in the military I was a sheepdog. Cops are sheepdogs. Look at the job descriptions and yep there you are. I think most people who think they are sheepdogs are like some dog that starts running around a herd of sheep and has pretensions until the herd's sheepdog shows up and gets chased away. And that is the reality, there are sheep, wolves, sheepdogs and dogs and not every dog is a sheepdog. And not every dog even has any idea what it is to be a sheepdog. So when someone who has never been a cop or a soldier claims to be a sheepdog...
I'm thinking more like "there are sheep, wolves, sheepdogs and sheep who think they are dogs...until a wolf shows up."
__________________
Open carry activists are to gun rights what the Westboro Baptist Church is to free speech.
Bren is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2014, 09:20   #22
FireForged
Millenium #3936
 
FireForged's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Rebel South
Posts: 4,472
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Biltz View Post
I've always thought the sheepdog and sheep concept to be pretty egotistical for civilians. When I was in the military I was a sheepdog. Cops are sheepdogs. Look at the job descriptions and yep there you are. I think most people who think they are sheepdogs are like some dog that starts running around a herd of sheep and has pretensions until the herd's sheepdog shows up and gets chased away. And that is the reality, there are sheep, wolves, sheepdogs and dogs and not every dog is a sheepdog. And not every dog even has any idea what it is to be a sheepdog. So when someone who has never been a cop or a soldier claims to be a sheepdog...
So now we have classes of sheepdogs? LOL

Calling a soldier or leo a sheepdog really marginalizes what they do for society. Didnt the Courts already say that Police do not have a constitutional duty to protect?

I think the whole concept is simply a way to describe someone who is able and willing to protect others from danger when they otherwise cant protect themselves. Protecting people from being preyed upon by active and armed predator. I dont think its supposed to be really all that deep.

Again, I am no sheepdog but I acknowledge that the personality exists. I just hope that if I ever do have to use a firearm in public to defend myself that a sheepdog doesnt mistake me for the badguy.
__________________
"I believe that the right of the citizen to keep and bear arms must not be infringed if liberty in America is to survive." - Ronald Reagan

Last edited by FireForged; 02-14-2014 at 09:22..
FireForged is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2014, 10:25   #23
happyguy
Na Ben Don Chat
 
happyguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Indiana
Posts: 14,223
No dog of any sort here.

Simply a man.

Regards,
Happyguy
__________________
"Success isn't a result of spontaneous combustion. You have to set yourself on fire." - Arnold H. Glasgow
happyguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2014, 11:53   #24
cornerexit
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 81
You could take it a further few steps.

1. Civil suit. You go all sheepdog in a mass shooting and cause escalation or a missed shot wounds a bystander. Have fun in court ...will cost you thousands (tens)... Face/Name all over the news. Could cause bad juju with your job (fired) and make it hard to find another job, friends, family, everything.

2. Your best bet is to find cover or better yet, escape. Most tactical commando sheepdog Internet forum folks, are they in shape, exercise regularly? Train to hop fences, crawl through a window or other small space to escape? Can they even run a few city blocks before they drop dead? Being agile, maneuverable, quick, etc, is not something I ever see discussed. What I see more often than not at the range, gun show, etc, is some fatass running his mouth about this gun vs. that gun, or caliber wars, or a host of other crap and they couldn't hop a fence or run a block to escape danger. They got their big bad ass gun and they think they are going to be Seagal or something and return fire and be the hero on TV. If you aren't paid to carry a gun you need to get away and call the professionals.
cornerexit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2014, 12:02   #25
happyguy
Na Ben Don Chat
 
happyguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Indiana
Posts: 14,223
Quote:
Originally Posted by cornerexit View Post
You could take it a further few steps.

1. Civil suit. You go all sheepdog in a mass shooting and cause escalation or a missed shot wounds a bystander. Have fun in court ...will cost you thousands (tens)... Face/Name all over the news. Could cause bad juju with your job (fired) and make it hard to find another job, friends, family, everything.

2. Your best bet is to find cover or better yet, escape. Most tactical commando sheepdog Internet forum folks, are they in shape, exercise regularly? Train to hop fences, crawl through a window or other small space to escape? Can they even run a few city blocks before they drop dead? Being agile, maneuverable, quick, etc, is not something I ever see discussed. What I see more often than not at the range, gun show, etc, is some fatass running his mouth about this gun vs. that gun, or caliber wars, or a host of other crap and they couldn't hop a fence or run a block to escape danger. They got their big bad ass gun and they think they are going to be Seagal or something and return fire and be the hero on TV. If you aren't paid to carry a gun you need to get away and call the professionals.
1. If you cause a mass shooting to escalate, what does it escalate into?

2. A person with some basic skills and a good attitude doesn't necessarily have to be a NavySEALRangerDELTASpecialForcesCommando to make a difference depending on the opponent and the situation.

I'm an old fatass but I can hit small targets at reasonably long ranges reliably.

Regards,
Happyguy
__________________
"Success isn't a result of spontaneous combustion. You have to set yourself on fire." - Arnold H. Glasgow

Last edited by happyguy; 02-14-2014 at 12:06..
happyguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 16:56.



Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 1,207
421 Members
786 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,244
Nov 11, 2013 at 11:42